Family of Origin (FOO) Support Thread Part 2

[BusynMember]

A vent and explanation of how mother handled the "you can only date Jewish boys" issues.

Yes, both of my parents are Jewish. Are they devout? No. Did we celebrate the holidays religiously? (haha, a pun). No. Did we keep kosher? No. Did we have seperate plates and silverware? No.

When I questioned their rules about only dating Jewish boys, it was a serious question. I didn't understand it. I was not really treated well by the Jewish kids I went to school with. They ostracized me and tended to have values I didn't share. I had no problem dating a Jewish boy if we clicked, but I wanted to know why I was so limited. It's not like my mother, my primary caregiver, cared what I did in most areas of life. She didn't care WHAT I did, except for the few topics I posted above, such as Jewish boys and never cutting my hair. Anyway, these were her reasons why I could only date Jewish boys and my silent answers to her as she told me. My silent responses are in bold italics.

This is the most ludicrous so I'll put it first. She would say this when she caught me dating a non-Jew or she thought a Jewish guy was a non-Jew. Please don't let her words offend you. I realize they are insane. If
Any words in italics are my thoughts, not her words.

"Jewish men make good husbands." Jewish men make a lot of money, at least you think so.
"Gentile men beat their wives and drink I am not making this up and since you're Jewish every time they get angry at you they will call you a dirty Jew!" Oh, come on, you expect me to believe this?

"When I went to school, the gentiles threw rats at the Jews when we played sports against them." This I believed and it is sad that there was discrimination right after WWII, but I didn't see how that pertained to me other than Mother was terrified of anyone who wasn't Jewish at the time.

"If Jews don't marry Jews, there are so few of us, Hitler took care of us good, then Jews will cease to exist." I know this is possibly true and sad, but if it happens, it is not because I don't marry a Jew. It's just part of the natural evolution of change. This did not sway me. It was her main argument although shse repeated her first one plenty, especially when she was angry.

In the end, I did date mostly Jewish boys my sophomore and Junior year of high school, but I didn't always andj by the time I was a senior in high school I was dating whoever I wanted. This was a huge risk as I ended up being the first one in my family to actually marry out of my religion and then change religions. But Mom was so excited to get me out of the house, she was fine with it by then. And my sister followed my lead.

I wonder what they would have done or said if they'd known I dated hispanic and black men as well. That I was smart enough to totally hide from them.

I just brought this up because the Jewish boy lecture was one I lived with a lot. I heard about it when I was very, very young, too young to date anyone and it stopped when Mother saw this was one thing about me she could not control. And of course again she was eager to get me out of the house and I met my first husband very young (18) and maybe getting me out of the house was worth the demise of all Jews.

Every Jewish holiday in my house was a screamfest between my parents. Yom Kippor was the terror of my youth since my father could not handle not eating so the screamfests were even worst.

Way to make a child love her heritage!!! Go, go, go!!!!

I am now a very happy Buddhist/New Ager who doesn't tell my adult kids who to date...race, religion, etc. I do caution them never to allow a man or woman to assault them or use drugs. But I never told my kids that XXX religion or race would beat you up.

I wonder what my parents thought when we adopted first asian kids then black ones. One thing I did not do, that many very badly abused children do, is ask permission. I told them and if they didn't like it, by then I was thinking "Too bad. So sad." My father, in spite of his early rantnigs about only dating Jewish men, has been great with all my kids. He treats them equally, just as he does all of us siblings and is forever telling Jumper how pretty she is. This is a real prop to my father. And Mother? Where was she? Well, she saw the first kids until Princess was maybe three then never saw any of them again, not even sending birthday cards. She never saw Sonic or Jumper. Her loss big time, but she didn't. By then it wasn't racial as nobody was dating Jews anymore, including herself (parents divorced). She just didn't like me so she took it on my kids and didn't see them too. And t hat turned out to be a blessing. She would not have made a good member of our family at all.

But that's not why my mother never saw my children. She didn't see Bart when he was born many times. She had no interest in being Grandma to any of MY kids, including him and he is biological.

I love my very colorful and lovable family so much.

Ok, well, vent over. Just felt like explaining. Ignore me and carry on I got off early from work today so I have more time to play on the computer. Tomorrow a nd Sunday...work days.

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

I love my very colorful and lovable family so much.

I love them too, from hearing you talk about them. Sonic, Jumper, Bart, Junior.

:O)

***

So, I have been feeling less than myself, in that way it feels when we are not being, and cannot seem to touch, what it was to be our best selves. This could be the freeing of another level. I have been stumbling through unbelievable things relative to my Family of Origin, wondering so often how any of this could possibly be true...knowing that in essence, it is.

It is true.

I feel very sad that this is so.

I remind myself of Kubler-Ross' Stages of Grief, and that it is appropriate that I would grieve these things I have learned are true ~ that it was the same truth, over time, all the time. Part of what I feel is a distaste for my own blood.

There just weren't any heroes; there was so much hatred.

I could be feeling this way because clearing this material has been time consuming and has been traumatic, repeatedly traumatic, over time.

Or maybe I am wishing with all my heart I had stayed firmly in denial.

Never; not after what they have done. Not after how they have behaved toward my daughter.

Never.

The twists and the ugliness in it are difficult to assimilate so easily.

The end of it ~ even the way it's ended already more than once with my FOO...pretty cruel.

It could be that, as other states of mind have passed, this one too will clear.

But I was in a place where nothing felt right. It was warm, the carpet seemed musty, the sheets were loose and clingy. I thought about the way I have been thinking about my mom and sister; though I do see the value in clearing this material and in clarifying my thinking regarding what is happening in my FOO, I feel overwhelmed by the ugliness in it ~ by the ugly hopelessness of it. I thought about my kids and grands and how to hold all that in faith.

In faith.

Faith is not, like a gambler's bet, something that turns out right or wrong. It is an act, an intention, a project....

The quote the above paraphrase is taken from was the motto, was the freaking Mission Statement of my life, at one point. I had it at the bottom of my posts. I believed it with all my heart.

For all those years, I believed.

I lost faith in so many things, when my daughter went homeless and was beat and during the time that came, after. At some point, I removed the quote from my postings. It seemed there was nothing to believe in anymore; that I was just giving lip service to everything that once meant something, that should still mean something, in my life.

Anyway, I got up wondering how I'd survived the first losses and whether this determined psychic mining had been a mistake. It feels very different to face the repetitious ugliness of it than it did to accept whatever the wrongness was and hope things would resolve well. Thinking of Benedictine values, and of the strength I found there the first time, I began reviewing a Benedictine site. I knew it would center me, and it did. So I will put the more comforting aspects of what I found here for all of us.

Remember the poetry?

To shelter against the bloodied breast of the wounded white dove
and to weave, of the dancer's shadow and the white mare's breath....

***
This is speaking of oblate Benedictines, which I am going to look into. Have to drive across the bridge, to do it. So, maybe that will be a good test for me. Anyway, here is what I found that brought some comfort:

"Seeking harmony and integrity of life, they perpetuate and enhance the traditional Benedictine motto: Peace.

They take care to seek out opportunities for the practice of charity and warm hospitality to those around them.

Let the abbot moderate all things that there be something for the strong to strive after and nothing to dishearten the weak."

Then, there was a section on chimes, and on the chimes of Big Ben in particular, and on the regulation of life possible through the chimes of a clock. So, I went and looked that up on YouTube and it was a lovely thing.

Cedar

LATER THIS MORNING

So. Look what I found. I wasn't going to post this post. It was just that I couldn't sleep and etc. Now I am back, and I am going to post it. You were right all along, SWOT. There are names for patterns of behavior, and considering them in our own cases can make the difference between believing we have slipped and gone too far and are turning into our mothers and understanding, finally, what happened.

I have the "why" now, that I could never make sense of.

I remember SWOT, when you would post this, that, or the next article relating to psychiatric diagnoses. I would always post back that it didn't seem appropriate to label someone. I wasn't even sure I believed any of the diagnoses mattered. So, this morning, I was zipping around on the internet to see what I could find that would resonate, that would comfort me...and I did a search for borderline moms.

Bingo.

There is another site on borderline moms which lists the four types of borderline moms. I only know how to copy and paste one thing at a time though, so I did not include that one. If I were going to say, which I know I shouldn't but here it is, I would label your mom Queen.

Mine is Witch/Queen, because there was physical abuse. The article even stated that while borderlines do not typically physically abuse, when they do, it is carefully concealed from outsiders. The therapist, a woman, noted that the aftereffects for the children of borderline moms are among the most harmful and long lasting.

Here is how you know whether an adult was likely brought up by a borderline mom: The symptoms he or she carries into therapy.

Here is a quote:

"It is almost unique to the child of a borderline to feel a lack of attachment and a lack of love from the parent while at the same time blaming themselves for feeling that way."

I did not note where I got that. I put it in my journal, and that is how I could quote it here for you.

"People who are concerned about saying/feeling terrible things or being a horrible person are seldom horrible people."

YAY! I spent all night feeling horrible because I tore my mom's jaw off and made her wear a Bozo nose. I really did wonder what had happened and whether I had finally gone too far with this psychic mining and was beginning to turn into my mother, after all.

I'm not. I'm okay. I feel like a little kid who said a prayer and had it answered.

:O)

***

Thank you SWOT, for posting information on the different illnesses. I never would pay attention to the names, because I did not want that to be ~ I didn't want to believe something that bad could happen to my daughter, and could be a real thing, because it is so awful.

But to have read the information on borderline mothers and seen the exact way I feel about my mom there released me from where I was going; so like, shocked and disappointed in myself and wondering what it meant that I no longer was able to hold faith and etc.

For each of us here on the FOO Chronicles, though I never in a million years dreamed I would suggest it, there was excellent information on the effects and the manner of healing for those raised by parents er...fitting the diagnostic criteria.

You could google borderline mom or bipolar mom (or dad). Or schizophrenic mom, probably.

It was very helpful to me, to do this.

But I still do feel badly about tearing my mom's jaw off and making her wear that Bozo nose.

I do.

Cedar

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

https://www.amazon.com/Will-Ever-Good-Enough-Narcissistic/dp/1439129436/

 

[nerfherder]

This is the most ludicrous so I'll put it first. She would say this when she caught me dating a non-Jew or she thought a Jewish guy was a non-Jew. Please don't let her words offend you. I realize they are insane. If
Any words in italics are my thoughts, not her words.

Oh yeah, I got a lot of the same, with the extra sprinkle of "That's not something girls do" or even better, "that's not something JEWISH girls do." I do carry resentment, and I'm sure it still goes on in a more subtle manner - just from the attitudes of many of my mom's friends at shul. Her son's the success story, i.e. money. (My brother and I get along pretty well, the biggest drawback being his very Irish temper. (Yep, he's adopted, immigrant Irish farm wife who had a thing with the farmhand while hubby was out of town on business, private adoption handled it) and I'm the post adoption surprise.)

Bro and I both married goyim, both of us are separated/divorced, for a long time he was the classic pot smoking alcoholic Difficult Child, and I was the Good Girl. Now he's the Good Boy who takes care of Mom (96, he's there at least once a month managing the details of her living on her own) and I'm the slacker never-calling poor kid by choice who would rather stick her hand in a breeched doe goat having delayed labor than ever live in Suburban SoCal EVER AGAIN. Or ANY suburb. Or anyplace where a beat-up pickup truck with fragments of hay and a slight odor of the last dump dropoff would get me ticketed for leaving an "abandoned vehicle" parked in her development. (No, hasn't happened. Yet.)

Heck, I'd rather stick my hand in a stuck farrowing sow. And that's saying something.

At least now at 52 I'm learning useful skills. Yesterday I had my first experience with our occasional farmhand building a post and board-rail hog fence. I could probably build my own small house from scratch at this point (but the wiring would have to be a barter deal, electricity scares me. Less than it used to, but still.)

I'm walking around, sweaty, stinky, still wearing yesterday's t-shirt and my pajama pants thanks to a sudden case of Dry Period cramps ruining my morning. Feh. But the livestock are fed, and the newest incarnation of our duck house is apparently predator-tight. Yay! No new dead ducks in the orchard!

Wait, where were we? Right. No goyim. No shiksas. Whatever. Mom was lucky I was with a guy. I'll be lucky if Gothish Princess settles down with a job and a competent ... whatever. Man. Woman. Lawnmower. Right now Kiddo is likely the most conventionally successful and functional female in the family. How's that for weird?

 

[BusynMember]

Mine is Witch/Queen, because there was physical abuse. The article even stated that while borderlines do not typically physically abuse, when they do, it is carefully concealed from outsiders. The therapist, a woman, noted that the aftereffects for the children of borderline moms are among the most harmful and long lasting.

I'm quite sure my mother was borderline too. At least she had many of the traits, such as black and white thinking, raging, you saw the list.That's a lot of her. I had some traits too. Guess I picked them up from her. Sister also has traits. Brother, no. He's just....different.

I did not treat my children like a borderline mother would though and I've had long term relationships and don't self-harm or have eating disorders. So a lot of it is not me too.

My therapist thinks I have complex PTSD. I think she's right.

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

My sister posts here about me.

Ack! I am sorry, Serenity SWOT. I was reading about moms with that diagnosis. It is too late to delete the post.

I will never look there for your sister, SWOT.

Cedar

 

[BusynMember]

No, don't delete it. It's very good.

Just that my sister posts on "People with Borderline Family and Siblings" about me. It doesn't bother me. I kind of think it's funny at this point. In fact, if you like I will PM you her nick name there. She has not been too active there lately.

Her false words can't hurt me, Cedar. Did you pick a new name you like?

 

[BusynMember]

To Nerfie: Wow. We have lots of Jewish families represented on our thread here.

As soon as I got out of Loonybin (family home) I never lived Jewish again. In a very sad way, my upbringing made me not want to be associated with Jewishness in any way. The kids at school were 98% Jewish and bullied me terribly. The only nice ones, in general with a very few exceptions, were the non-Jews so I started thinking, as a kid will, that Jews are mean and gentiles are nicer. To me, that was my life in childhood. But I still wanted to obey the "date a Jewish boy" rule in high school partly because I had been brainwashed into thinking Jews were superior to other boys. Please forgive me anyone who may be offended. I was told that and I thought it was true. I certainly don't agree now. Frankly, I never lived around Jewish people much after my escape. I do not blame Jewish people on my adult problems. They were kids too and they just played out what they knew and heard from their own parents and, yes, it was a rather affluent area although we were either not affluent or my parents acted as if we were not and, except for the teasing about my clothes and car and "ugly" house, I really didn't wish I was rich. I loathed the snobs I grew up with and I realize this can happen in any ethnic flavored affluent neighborhood...people can care more about what they own that who they are and who you are.

I became a Christian first...or tried extremely hard to become the same religion as my first husband. I brought up my oldest three in the church and went myself. Then, when I hit around my mid thirties, and was still uncertain about what I believed and didn't, I read a book that changed my life by George Anderson called "We Don't Die." That lead to a lifetime of searching my own spirituality and the experiences of others and I got involved in the paranormal and read extensively about near death experiences and have a special psychic I talk to once a year who has connected me with my family on the other side. Yes, I am sure it is them. Yes, I took my medication last night. Yes, I am probably less afraid to die than most people because I just don't think we do die the way it looks like we do. It was a personal journey that affected me for the good in every way. I walk and breathe my Higher Power. But I keep it to myself.

I do believe that the main message of my beliefs is that we decide to come down to earth (again) because we have lessons to learn that we have not mastered yet and we are here to learn to love one another. That is partly why I tried so hard to keep loving up my mom and called her. It was what I understood one is supposed to do on earth. But it takes two to resolve problems.

I do believe we will have to face each other again. And all of my FOO will come together again, but they w ill have a different mindset and so will I and we will talk on a higher level.

Now if you have called the men in white coats, that's not nice. Please tell them you didn't mean it.

Anyhow, this belief system drives my life. I believe in caring, in helping the down and out, in being there, in codependency...which made it all the harder to accept that my belief system did not mean I have to sacrifice every bit of me for others. That circle took a long time to commplete. Yes, I'm here to love. Yes, I have expectations of how I should be treated in return or you can't join my world.

I feel like I"m a newer soul, not an old soul.

Anyhow, just some sharing that I'm hesitant to tell most people because so many think you're wrong or crazy if you don't follow a conventional religion or are an atheist (in which case then many people judge you as baaaaaaaaad.)

I just got home from work. It feels like 100 degrees outside, but I'm going out anyway with Jumper. No, it's not far. Just to the car where we will blast the air conditioner

 

[Copabanana]

My poor mother who I miss was a Witch Queen.

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

I did not treat my children like a borderline mother would though and I've had long term relationships and don't self-harm or have eating disorders. So a lot of it is not me too.

According to the material I read, the borderline mom is incapable of loving her child. Plus, I have posted to you all along that I think you are not borderline. And then, your therapist confirmed it. I'm so sorry though, SWOT.

I mean, I am sorry, but I am so glad I read that material.

I nearly fell off my chair at the therapists description of the adult patient raised by borderline mom. I had been feeling so badly about myself for all the terrible things I'd been thinking and there it was: that is just how a child raised by a mom who hated would feel, too! I swear I was not looking for information about you, SWOT.

The impression I got from reading about the moms indicated that the child would come away believing the mom was great but that the child was bad. Or stupid. The very words you have posted regarding the things you believed about your mom and yourself.

In fact, if you like I will PM you her nick name there.

No, don't do that. For me, anonymity is the reason I can do this ~ can think about things and post things here that are so personal and so not very nice.

I am just so sorry.

But so glad I found that information.

But so sorry. That must have been a nasty surprise.

Her false words can't hurt me, Cedar. Did you pick a new name you like?

That's exactly right. If it were me though, I would feel so exposed.

I like Cedar. That is the name I will stay with.

SWOT? I appreciate your being so nice about this.

Cedar

 

[nerfherder]

Anyhow, just some sharing that I'm hesitant to tell most people because so many think you're wrong or crazy if you don't follow a conventional religion or are an atheist (in which case then many people judge you as baaaaaaaaad.)

Hah! I bet mine's more unconventional than yours.

I count the effects of my affiliation and religious work as having saved me from an early death by passive suicidal self destructive behaviors.

Early on at one point a few of my co-religionists asked me why I sought affiliation. I answered, "well, seems like being Jewish doesn't have the challenges it once did."

(No, it isn't Scientology. Just sayin'.)

On the subject of philosophical study, American and European Judaism has been, in my opinion, downright poisoned by the cult of the victim. If you want to read the amazing directions pre-war Judaism was taking, go to the website www.jewishencyclopedia.org It dates back to 1906, and has been preserved as both facsimile and digital format.

 

[BusynMember]

terrible things I'd been thinking and there it was: that is just how a child raised by a mom who hated would feel, too! I swear I was not looking for information about you, SWOT.

LOL. I know. Don't worry.

 

[BusynMember]

That must have been a nasty surprise.

The surprise was that shse was stalking me here, remember?

The rest is because the last cut off had just happened and she was mad. That's what she does. It's ok and I'm good and suddenly I'm borderline (she is free to think what she wants).

 

[BusynMember]

I would feel so exposed.

nobody there knows who I am. I don't care what she says. The hurt is long over.

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

Yes, I am sure it is them. Yes, I took my medication last night. Yes, I am probably less afraid to die than most people because I just don't think we do die the way it looks like we do

I like that. My father was very curious about reincarnation. I think we do not die the way it looks like we do, either. It wouldn't make a bit of sense if that were so. I heard the nature of our journeying described one time as dropping off a rental car (leaving the body at death) and then, when it is time, collecting another (reincarnation).

Interesting discussion.

I do believe that the main message of my beliefs is that we decide to come down to earth (again) because we have lessons to learn that we have not mastered yet and we are here to learn to love one another.

I agree with that. The longer I am alive and the more I read though, I wonder if it could be that whatever the consciousness is that enlivens all things is curious. I would be curious about physical things, if I were without corporeal form.

That imagery of one candle, a thousand points of light seems exactly right to me.

I have been wondering lately whether we incarnate into the same family line over and over and over again. I think our animals ~ everything ~ trees and probably, everything, is enlivened by that same consciousness or energy, right down to chemical reactions.

I have heard it said that this is what Einstein described in E=Mc squared.

That everything is the same thing, and Time...well, I lose it, there.

Now if you have called the men in white coats, that's not nice. Please tell them you didn't mean it.

:O)

If you want to read the amazing directions pre-war Judaism was taking, go to the website www.jewishencyclopedia.org It dates back to 1906, and has been preserved as both facsimile and digital format.

Great link. Thanks, Nerfie. If you are familiar with Frank Herbert, you know that the Holy Days and foods and traditions of Judaism were portrayed as being enacted as a living faith system far into the future and on other planets. I found that beautiful.

I had found the Reverend Mother idea beautiful, too.

And the Tlielaxu (?) seem to have been patterned on Islam.

Cedar

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

My poor mother who I miss was a Witch Queen.

Hi, Copa. I read about your experience with the Amtrak train. That's a terrible thing. I am sorry you missed the appointment.

We missed you.

Cedar

 

[BusynMember]

Copa, I hope you are having a good day, in spite of Amtrak. I realize Amtrak is another toxicity that all of us should probably go forever no contact with.

But really how horrible you missed, of all things, your son's doctor's appointment.

I'm so sorry.

 

[BusynMember]

So, I have been feeling less than myself, in that way it feels when we are not being, and cannot seem to touch, what it was to be our best selves. This could be the freeing of another level. I have been stumbling through unbelievable things relative to my Family of Origin, wondering so often how any of this could possibly be true...knowing that in essence, it is.

I think this repeats itself over and over again. And, although we will never know first hand, I believe our DNA relatives, who are well aware, at least in the back of their minds, that our families were horrible, I think they go over it too. It was actually surprising to me when I saw the sheer love and emotion my brother put in to the FB love letters to our ten years deceased mother, who did treat him like royalty. I had figured her memory was fading a bit with him, like for me, but she is still in his head, renting space, making him feel important and good and him trying to unlock that door so he can again commune with the only person who had ever seen him as the most special person on earth.

We don't forget what meant something to us, both good and bad.

We are addicted to our childhoods; all of us. If they were loving and good, people reminisce with their cousins and smile. If they were ugly and we felt small at the time, we continue to fight that feeling and our family members (DNA collection) tend to have differing memories of how things were. As I read more and more "dysfunctional family" stories, and many were on a site called Experience Project, I read about my own family in many stories. Mother hated sister who hated brother who hated writer who was disowned who was hating on uncle whose siblings did not agree that uncle abused her, etc. etc. etc.

I wonder if the memories of those from bad families are not as sharp. We can hide bad memories in our subconscious. Or maybe we just perceive things differently.

I don't think so.

I think personality disordered and mean mothers deliberately treat one kid like gold and another like cow manure. It is on purpose. It is to make one kid feel bad as he sees how the royal kid is treated. Divide/conquer mentality. There is a need to hurt one of their own, a sick need, which I don't understand and never will.

It's not like my kids were perfect all the time, but never have that had the kind of treatment by me that I had by HER.

I will never understand that sort of behavior from a parent.

Then there is good old Denial, which we all know is not just a river.

Cedar, I think it is normal to fall back a little but you will come back because you have changed. It is always saddening to think of our own families as being too clear to us, because of what we see. But we also have to remember that we chose not to be one of them and eventually we move on again. And you will move on and thrive.

Seeing the truth for the first time is like experiencing a traumatic shock. It took me little baby steps to see the full enormity of what my DNA chums did to me. And I don't really care if the others were all smiley and think Mother was a sweetheart and did not abuse any of us, even myself. My own experience in that house with that woman was abusive, whether anyone believes it or not. It doesn't matter (shrug).

It just is.

For my brother, she was a Goddess that he talks to every day.

To my sister, I am really not sure as I never saw her treat my sister well. She was out of my life by that time. I just saw her ignoring my sister.

For me, she was a scary lady who made me feel like dirt and purposely hurt me for her own reasons...maybe her own self-hate...maybe to cycle her own childhood. Whatever the reason, I'm not my brother or sister. I am me. And my experience, infancy (by her words) to her death, was a series of bad memories that she wanted me to have.

"When I first held you in my arms in the hospital I felt nothing, absolutely nothing."

That says it all.

Cedar, we can move on, learn to let them go, and have great lives. I think my life is pretty wonderful.

But we can never forget. It's not possible.

We just can't let that fact interfere with our happiness and THAT we can do.

 

[Copabanana]

Hi, Copa. I read about your experience with the Amtrak train. That's a terrible thing. I am sorry you missed the appointment.

But really how horrible you missed, of all things, your son's doctor's appointment.

I'm so sorry.

Thank you SWOT and Cedar.

My son has acted like a horrible asssssshole. Some of it could be interpreted as manic or hypomanic, but not all. A lot seems chosen, some less so.

SON has been deliberately degrading us. SWOT, you are protective of him. Believe me, he is either psychotic or he is choosing this. I prefer choice. If I have to face psychosis I will but not today.

SON started off Thursday afternoon about my neighbor who just moved (she was the lady involved in the gossip about me being a not good enough mother, based upon stuff my son told another neighbor). Actually, it still infuriates me that that latter neighbor has a son who was in jail facing 150 years of charges from various counties and the FEDS.

Why would SON start in with these women after 6 years??? I know that these women undermined me in a cruel game based on envy and ganging up, using my son. At that time I was working and earning very good money. I have mobility and freedom that neither has. People have a right to judge me or reject me if they choose but I had supposedly been their good pal. Until the gossip started.

SON, you are free to have opinions about me but I would feel better if you ask me what I did or did not do or say, before you judge me based upon what others say about me to you in a private conversation without my input. It does feel bad SON to have my own child take the side of another person and not give me the chance to explain.

My son on Thursday night asking me if it might be the case after all that I never forgave her because of racism. Later he said it was a joke.

Again after 5 years telling me that it was my fault because I never confronted with her my feelings and thoughts about her betrayal. (Because she told him I had not--more gossip about me, again.) I had attempted several times to speak with her. She was not open to it.

SON mad at M because he brought up to SON how he was making filthy everything and disregarding anything we asked him about house, and doing the opposite. SON will not tolerate being told one thing and turns everything around to criticize, target and educate us as if we are heathens and go poo-poo in our pants (well, some of us in extreme circumstances may, but it is an accident.). Then son explodes violently (and snapped in pieces my mother's wooden broom) which he excuses as a necessary means of anger management. ( Yes, I did explain forcefully that destruction of property is not an allowable anger management strategy.)

Everything, I mean everything he turns on us, me and uses it in a hostile, challenging and disrespectful manner.

I want to stress this was the worst time together I have ever experienced with my son including the time he broke my foot in Rio, ending my dancing there.

He did at some point speak what seemed to be earnestly with me that he lacks control. That he acts impulsively without thinking no matter what he tries.

I told him that he is absolutely responsible to seek and use remedy for same, so as to not target innocent people. Including me and M.

He justifies not taking medications because of side-effects, including no SSRI's, especially to male libido.

I counter that everybody has to go through a process of trying and fine-tuning medications, of acclimation for a few weeks, until one finds a regimen that works or a medication or medication combo that works. That there are medications for bi-polar or depression that have no significant or general side effects. And that often, perhaps usually in life people do not get choice 1 or 2 or 3, and have to choose between alternatives that are the best of options. i.e. when all options are undesirable to one degree or another.

And again no one has to suffer his outbursts, disrespect, aggression.

He is arrogant, uncaring and hostile. M thinks he chooses to do this to us or around us. That he controls it. I do believe this is true, to an extent. There was a period in the trip when he chose to act sweet and reasonable and charming.

On the trip to BIG CITY I heard an emergency call for conductors to the dining car. Thought a minute and realized I needed to go.

There was son surrounded by large male conductors ready to eject him from the train right then because he had verbally targeted the nice man behind the food counter.

It was terrible. I explained he was mentally ill. They asked me "can he make it to the big city without acting up again?"

Ask him, I responded, if the train needs to stop (middle of nowhere) or if he can contain himself.

My son said yes,he could contain himself for the rest of the trip (M is convinced son only did this because he knew I was with him on the train. I am not so sure). Son contained himself on the train for the rest of the trip to the BIG CITY, and on the trip back. In fact we made some nice friends (he a girl) and he acted positively charming to all on the trip back.

And again like a monster in the house when we got home.

I think M could not believe why I brought son back here. I kept thinking that he did not have money or food. And that one more night could not be worse than it already had.

When we got to the BIG CITY I was such a mess that by the time I descended into the Metro I had horrible stomach cramps I was afraid I would lose control of myself as in soiling. (I had gone to the bathroom just 10 min before.)

The idea at this point had been still to go the Hospital for the appointment to show respect to the doctor (he had been fit in and somebody else did not get an appointment slot) and get his blood work done, even if the doctor would not see him 3 hours late.

I told him I needed to stay where I was (at a coffee shop nearby). I was too ill to go. And he needed to go to the hospital without me. I got tea and read my Kindle while I waited.

The back and forth and minimum trip for him get to the hospital would have taken an hour and a half.

About 45 min later a man seated next to me said, "your son is here." I looked up.

My son insisted upon shouting at me from 12' across the cafe, with dozens of people present, and not coming closer. I was not mortified. I was furious but too defeated and sick to do much of anything at all except to tell him I would not yell to him across the cafe and if he wanted to talk he needed to approach the table.

He is acting out with me some theater with me of humiliation, distance, retribution, vengeance and disrespect.

I do not want to be a part of it. But I feel I must.

From what I can gather, he left the treatment program only because of foul ups with his Medical Coverage which are remediable. From what I can gather he is considering returning for at least a 4 month program. I think he has been spoken to about getting subsidized housing in that city which he is a very good shot at due to his SSI.

This morning he did confess he was given Vistaril for anxiety (but it also is mildly anti Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) and mildly anti-psychotic. But was not taking it. He did take it (for effect) after another completely horrible exchange. more to put me in my place, I think. He said it makes him feel groggy.

I believe him but so what? Better that that exploding at people, degrading them, antagonizing them....

If you comply with the medication regimen there is a good chance your body will adjust, and you will not feel the grogginess, I said. Or there are so many other options to try. No, he lectured me there are not.

I told him at some point if he goes around treating people as does he is at risk of prison or of being harmed, even killed. No one has to accept this treatment, nor will I.

M is absolutely furious. He thinks my son deliberately does this to us to hurt and degrade us. Neither of us have ever experienced anything quite like this with my son or anybody else. This is not the son I have ever known.

My son wants to move back in with us and asked if he showed me he had 4 or 5 classes in which he was already enrolled if I would assent. (I honestly do not get how he could be so completely disengaged with reality that he could think we would shelter and reward him for the way he is treating us.)

He seems to be doing OK with the lady he is paying to stay with and she has welcomed him back several times. She is only charging him $200 a month and will not allow the marijuana at all. He now says the marijuana is not a priority although he continues to extoll its wonderfulness and assert that this is all he needs to control any psychiatric symptom he may have.

For a moment last night (I had gotten up in the night and he was locked in the master bedroom with the private bath, with the bedroom door locked) I thought I had smelled marijuana. I feared that when he had left me sick in the BIG CITY he had used the subterfuge of going to the doctor as a cover to go to the medical marijuana clinic. But his eyes did not look pink. I am divided. Because he did come up with a story that it might be old marijuana smell from his pack. Yeah right.

But that illustrates currently the nature of the relationship between us. He sees me as somebody to lie to, deceive and fool. I fear that he may do so. At any opportunity. Where did the trust go?

Somehow the part about his asking to live here got lost.

WHAAAAAT? No.

I told him this: You have to get on psychiatric medications. I will go with you to a town an hour away where there is a satellite clinic of this BIG CITY hospital. I heard the Psychiatry Dept is good. He agreed to an evaluation. Whether or not he consents or complies with medications I have no control over, but I must at least try.

I fear somebody will kill him or he will go to prison for a long time if he keeps this up.

He was evidently throwing or smearing cut oranges all over the floors and walls in the kitchen. M was beside himself when he came home.

I am overwhelmed by what I went through. I am appalled by the risks posed by his behavior, which I fear are greater and more imminent.

Nothing at all got done of Friday except a disaster. 14 hours. I came home with the most searing pain in my abdomen, like doubled up. An abdomen that was perfectly fine in the morning. It got better with tea of Aloe Vera and Mint and locking myself in my bedroom.

So what is better? I am absolutely clear he cannot be near my house. That is clear.

I am absolutely clear that any help to him beyond connecting to treatment would be to get in the way and enable him. He has a clear route to subsidized housing and supports in the BIG CITY. He is connected to treatment there. If he decides to change there is everything there in that city he would need in order to do it.

I am absolutely clear that the best thing for me and for him is that I cross the country.

M says he thinks my son wants to go too. He may but he would have to take a cut in SSI of $200 and I doubt if he would consider this. But it seems clear he looked into the benefit amount. I do not want my son anywhere near me in an urban metropolis where he baits people and does not control his behavior.

I am absolutely motivated to go cross country (without son and without son in my house) and the last of my doctors' appointments is 9/18 so I do not see a reason for not leaving by the end of that month.

There are so many different kinds of pain that I feel now. Fear and concern for my son, central.

There is also shame and confusion how I could be so out of touch with his condition, motivations, conduct.

There is shame and confusion about what I did to him to cause him to engage in this vendetta of control, domination, vengeance, towards me and M.

After he left here (finally) he called a bit later and told me he never, ever wanted to see me again and this time he would follow through.

10 minutes later he called back and said he did not mean it.

The idea is that (my idea) he call and try to straighten out the two hospital bills, and call the liver doctor to get paper work for blood draw to do here, and get another appointment.

I am beginning to think that I cannot participate with him in liver treatment. He will do it or not.

As far as psychiatric treatment (medications and an evaluation) I think that it is so urgent that it justifies my enduring anything to help him address this.

I am not interested so much in diagnoses of my son. His diagnoses are difficult at best to determine by those who know him.

I am most interested in what my proper and best role is right now.

I cannot tell you how furious is M. I think he is mad at me too, and holds me responsible. I think he thinks that I allow my son to tyrannize us. And no matter how angry I get and how insistent with my son that he reverse his behaviors toward us or leave, M thinks I have not acted strongly enough.

The one thing I am coming to that might be good is that I am seeing that my unhinged behavior towards my son is and was quite likely the response that would be elicited in anybody that was treated as my son is treating me and M.

So, that was my Happy 2 days.

M is furious with me, too. And I with him. I think he sees himself as the victim in all of this. I kind of really am hating him. I think he thinks I am self-indulgent. I feel like ending the relationship. And that is the truth. I feel so outraged that M can blame me. I feel like blasting him back with all the things I hate about our situation that he caused. But even I see this may not be the best strategy right now.

PS The reason M feels so convinced that everything is my fault is because I let the cat dominate me.

PSS This is how alone I feel right now: If you all knew my sister, you would side with her. Against me.

COPA

 

[BusynMember]

Forgive me. I'm on my tablet and it auto corrects in odd ways so I hope this makes sense.

I would never side with your sister and I can't side with m. Controlling a disturbed adult who is not rational or stable is not within anybody's control. What are you supposed to do???

By your close explanation of your sons behavior, I feel that with this extra knowledge it is crystal clear that living with you is dangerous to you and harmful to him. You are his trigger because you love him.

I have no clue what is causing his behavior but he won't follow through with help for himself and that's the bottom line. He won't try. He is ruining your health and your relationship with m yet our laws about being unable to help the mentally ill make it impossible for you to do anything for him without his consent and sadly we have dismantled care centers for the mentally ill. These laws are not your fault.

I think moving away could be very good for you. Whether you go or stay, your son will still stay sick unless he is willing to get intensive help in my opinion including medication trials which aren't fun. Been there done that and it took years to find myself that medications were found that really help. The truth is, medications may help him and may not. There are new methods of treatment now too that do not require medication such as E M D R trauma therapy. Certainly son had trauma he may not even remember in the orphanage. But will he try it?

At any rate, talking to hostile neighbors about you was mean. I would have felt hurt and betrayed. Acting up in the train? Not even sure what to say and the same with calling your name. I can't diagnose why he'd do it and neither can m. But clearly you can not cure him.

I hope you trust your instincts. Moving may force him to face his demons. I would not let him back home but how sad is it that in our country, no matter how we beg, nobody will change the vile laws that leave so many mentally ill on the streets.

Our stupid lack of ability to help our loved ones is not your fault. Many share your dilemma.

I am very sad and angry for you and your son tonight. Just please be good enough to yourself to face the reality that you can not help your son because you have no legal options and that his behavior toward you could be dangerous to yourself and it's not your fault

Hugs.