First new thread in a while....hoping for support.
- Thread starter Copabanana
- Start date
BusynMember
Well-Known Member
The adventure, whatever it is, doesnt help him learn to work or take care of himself in other ways. A wayward adventire with the random wanderings in my opinion just exemplify inner chaos and lack of direction.
But at least he is home, which eliminates some stress. Distance helps US cope, and we matter too.
But at least he is home, which eliminates some stress. Distance helps US cope, and we matter too.
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jetsam
Active Member
copa as i read what you write i could be speaking of my own son... what a shame, a waste really for they don't realize that they are merely existing , not truly living. we can only watch ,sigh and shake our heads. Our son still lives at home. we are waiting till june (our lease is up then) and then we plan to move out of state. My husband has already stated that our son will not be coming with us but i don't think our son believes this. after all we have enabled , and been weak in the past on many things. I want to approach my son to tell him this and to try to enlighten him that he needs to think about these things because time goes by so quickly. How to do that without eliciting irate behavior from him is what i need to figure out.lol You seem to have a handle on things way better than i do and i commend you for your strength.
BusynMember
Well-Known Member
He will rant and abuse.
You must never falter and stay strong. It is your time now. And you will not be around forever to live his life for him. Hugs.
You must never falter and stay strong. It is your time now. And you will not be around forever to live his life for him. Hugs.
jetsam
Active Member
you are so right swot, I do realize this and i pray we stay strong! My husband is the one who seems to have a harder time than me, but i think he is finally there now. I have been the one who seems to be the focus of my sons anger more than my husband and I'm tired. just plain old tired. I am done trying to fix what doesn't want to be fixed. so I'm trying to take a greystone attitude while he lives here till june. then hopefully it is our time. just hubby and me...
Copa...that is some extraordinary difficult situation.
I understand our daughter's concern about working (and your son's). It's unfortunate that your son can't work for M. How sad that he doesn't appreciate an incredible opportunity.
Our daughter is fortunate in that I think her doctor would back her up that she is very limited in the amount of hours she could even hope to work per week.
So, I think if she were audited and working 10 hours a week (let's say) came up, it would not be an issue.
I do agree with her that she should not work much more for a variety of reasons. 12 would be a maximum! Between her mental illness and physical problems...that would be it.
I suggested she see if the local McDonald's might want someone to work on weekends only. Maybe four or five hours each Sat. and Sun.
I know this could be asking a lot, but my thought was it would be worth a try. in my humble opinion, she would feel wonderful to make any monies on her own. She practically laughed at me re: the idea. She worked at another restaurant and lasted one day.
My husband and other family members, to my shock, felt she couldn't work ANY job regularly.
They feel she has personality issues on top of the mood swings from bipolar and some physical issues from her brain aneurysm and all together it is too much.
She does have a very temporary job that she works a few days a year and loves it.
Thank goodness for this! She actually has a kind heart and I can see how she would/could work on a job one or two days! LOL!
Anyway, your son sounds complicated and surely it must be very taxing for you and M trying to cope with this myriad of issues.
I understand our daughter's concern about working (and your son's). It's unfortunate that your son can't work for M. How sad that he doesn't appreciate an incredible opportunity.
Our daughter is fortunate in that I think her doctor would back her up that she is very limited in the amount of hours she could even hope to work per week.
So, I think if she were audited and working 10 hours a week (let's say) came up, it would not be an issue.
I do agree with her that she should not work much more for a variety of reasons. 12 would be a maximum! Between her mental illness and physical problems...that would be it.
I suggested she see if the local McDonald's might want someone to work on weekends only. Maybe four or five hours each Sat. and Sun.
I know this could be asking a lot, but my thought was it would be worth a try. in my humble opinion, she would feel wonderful to make any monies on her own. She practically laughed at me re: the idea. She worked at another restaurant and lasted one day.
My husband and other family members, to my shock, felt she couldn't work ANY job regularly.
They feel she has personality issues on top of the mood swings from bipolar and some physical issues from her brain aneurysm and all together it is too much.
She does have a very temporary job that she works a few days a year and loves it.
Thank goodness for this! She actually has a kind heart and I can see how she would/could work on a job one or two days! LOL!
Anyway, your son sounds complicated and surely it must be very taxing for you and M trying to cope with this myriad of issues.
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Copabanana
Well-Known Member
Hi Nomad. What about volunteer work?
I had pushed my son (over and over again, the truth be told) to go to Voc Rehab, and they offered him volunteer opportunities as a start-either at the zoo or at the animal shelter. I would have loved either one of those, for me. Although he is a big animal lover, he was disinterested in these opportunities.
He came home last night, and M kicked him out again, just now. He needs to leave early in the morning. Very sad, I am.
Feeling Sad
Well-Known Member
Copa, I am so sorry that you are going through so much.
Copabanana
Well-Known Member
In the night, a few times, I tiptoed to my son's room and knocked. Once very late in the night and early in the morning. I as if begged my son:
How did this happen? We all three of us tried. Do you think we, M and I, want you in the street? Why would this be so, when for months and months we tried? With patience, and acceptance. Why would we want to hurt you, J?
For anger? He replied. Do you believe I am angry at you now, my words propelled by anger?
No, but...Of course I was angry at you when you became defensive and arrogant; when you interrupt us, to justify whatever you want of your behavior, of your decisions--that impact us too, over and over again.
What frustrates and angers us, are your attitudes and your choices. This is not against you. This is not a wanting that you suffer or be away from us. We do not want this, neither M or myself.
Can you try, J? Can you go to M in the morning, and tell him you understand how much he has helped you, and you value him?
I do not know quite what happened early in the morning, but M did say that my son approached him and asked him, if they were still friends; that he hoped for M's friendship, and that M replied: We cannot lose our friendship and will not. But that does not mean I do not tire of this situation and want it to change.
While my son had left the house M did not know if my son had left or not--as some stuff was left. The ball is in my son's court I guess.
It feels so much better to have lain down my arms. I realize now that I was fighting something in myself, and while it was acted out in relation to him--it was a battle in me, from the past, I do not know. I feel at peace, more or less, to give up the rancor and hope that I can sustain this.
M says he is ready to accept that my son stay in the other property and will make it secure for him. But what M does not want to do is to cede to my son, to empower my son to continue to avoid responsibilities and accountability and to control our own lives. With this I concur. And what M insists upon is that my son be accountable in every single thing, by documenting his efforts in every area of his life, to be able to be close to us.
By this I anticipate a continued war which we cannot win. I am already exhausted by it and so is M. But M's stance is this: If he is away from us we have no chance at all, no opportunity or voice to encourage and support him to grow better. Close to us we have some chance, however little it is.
How did this happen? We all three of us tried. Do you think we, M and I, want you in the street? Why would this be so, when for months and months we tried? With patience, and acceptance. Why would we want to hurt you, J?
For anger? He replied. Do you believe I am angry at you now, my words propelled by anger?
No, but...Of course I was angry at you when you became defensive and arrogant; when you interrupt us, to justify whatever you want of your behavior, of your decisions--that impact us too, over and over again.
What frustrates and angers us, are your attitudes and your choices. This is not against you. This is not a wanting that you suffer or be away from us. We do not want this, neither M or myself.
Can you try, J? Can you go to M in the morning, and tell him you understand how much he has helped you, and you value him?
I do not know quite what happened early in the morning, but M did say that my son approached him and asked him, if they were still friends; that he hoped for M's friendship, and that M replied: We cannot lose our friendship and will not. But that does not mean I do not tire of this situation and want it to change.
While my son had left the house M did not know if my son had left or not--as some stuff was left. The ball is in my son's court I guess.
It feels so much better to have lain down my arms. I realize now that I was fighting something in myself, and while it was acted out in relation to him--it was a battle in me, from the past, I do not know. I feel at peace, more or less, to give up the rancor and hope that I can sustain this.
M says he is ready to accept that my son stay in the other property and will make it secure for him. But what M does not want to do is to cede to my son, to empower my son to continue to avoid responsibilities and accountability and to control our own lives. With this I concur. And what M insists upon is that my son be accountable in every single thing, by documenting his efforts in every area of his life, to be able to be close to us.
By this I anticipate a continued war which we cannot win. I am already exhausted by it and so is M. But M's stance is this: If he is away from us we have no chance at all, no opportunity or voice to encourage and support him to grow better. Close to us we have some chance, however little it is.
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Childofmine
one day at a time
Copa, I'm just catching up here, and just read the whole thread. I see you taking big steps here even just in the past 9 days since you first posted here.
Setting boundaries with him...realizing how tired you are...and then speaking your heart's truth to your son today.
When nothing changes, nothing changes. But see, YOU have changed, and so there is another chance for change in you, in your relationship with him, and we hope, with him.
This is the hardest stuff in the entire world, wanting so much, trying so hard, and watching them struggle again and again and again and again.
You do have rights. You have the right to peace and serenity and joy and comfort in your life. If he's there, can you those things? Is it possible?
I know it's also hard to have those things when he isn't there.
There just is no perfect solution, but like you said, you can't be doing this when he's 40 years old and older.
You are walking forward, one step at a time. That's all anyone can do.
We're here with you.
Setting boundaries with him...realizing how tired you are...and then speaking your heart's truth to your son today.
When nothing changes, nothing changes. But see, YOU have changed, and so there is another chance for change in you, in your relationship with him, and we hope, with him.
This is the hardest stuff in the entire world, wanting so much, trying so hard, and watching them struggle again and again and again and again.
You do have rights. You have the right to peace and serenity and joy and comfort in your life. If he's there, can you those things? Is it possible?
I know it's also hard to have those things when he isn't there.
There just is no perfect solution, but like you said, you can't be doing this when he's 40 years old and older.
You are walking forward, one step at a time. That's all anyone can do.
We're here with you.
Copabanana
Well-Known Member
Hi COM. I have been watching for you and waiting, and I am glad you are here. Thank you, as always, for your wisdom, acknowledgement and support.
We decided he cannot come back here. But there is the other house, which we bought with him in mind. So that he could have somewhere to stay, safe, where we had some authority and control--away from me.
That property has two different buildings. He will be in the smaller, which we have worked on very little, but it does have completely new electrical wiring, and we will put on a security door so that he can feel safe when he sleeps. He will be responsible to clean it, and little by little, if he stays there, we will remodel the space, and make it suitable to share with somebody else, as there are 2 bedrooms.
I was very clear to him (he just called) that M was reticent and had his doubts, and is on the fence. (This ruse we agreed upon M and I, kind of like good and bad cop, because the minute my son gets an inch he devours your arm.) An example, in the phone call where I reiterated the conditions: everything documented and confirmed by random drug tests, documentation he is getting medical and psychiatric treatment, bills paid, some productive goal identified and continuous work to realize it...like an idiot he says this: after I have demonstrated I am doing this, will you guys relent on the marijuana? I feel that is fair.
And I say: J. You seem not to want to understand. You are free to use marijuana right now. Just not near me either using it or under the influence, or any space I control. Neither M or I will help or support you while you use drugs. And furthermore, by this comment you demonstrate a lack of acceptance of your situation and what will be required of you to work your way out of it. You have thousands of dollars of unpaid bills. You do not have a marketable skill that I am aware of to support yourself. Etcetera.
I am not saying this to be critical or to pile on. But where is there space in this scenario to buy hundreds of dollars of marijuana which by my observation seems to be your primary motivation and goal?
I cannot make a decision about your use of marijuana, but I can decide whether or not I let you stay at 20th or help you in any other way. You make your own decision about marijuana, but realize their will be consequences.
It frustrates me that you seem not to accept or see that if you invested a year in learning a trade or in gaining entry into a good university, wherever you wanted to go--once productive and autonomous you could make every single call in your life, without necessity to adhere to my conditions, which I agree are not my right to make.
It is only in my space, and wanting my help, that brings my right and obligation to set conditions for my own life. Which is what I am doing.
When I told M about the marijuana comment he despaired: He doesn't want to change, M said. And I answered, I am unsure if he is just a fool or there is some personality constraint, or both.
We are off to the races. Again.
No.
Yes. Can I go and jump off the bridge, now?
We decided he cannot come back here. But there is the other house, which we bought with him in mind. So that he could have somewhere to stay, safe, where we had some authority and control--away from me.
That property has two different buildings. He will be in the smaller, which we have worked on very little, but it does have completely new electrical wiring, and we will put on a security door so that he can feel safe when he sleeps. He will be responsible to clean it, and little by little, if he stays there, we will remodel the space, and make it suitable to share with somebody else, as there are 2 bedrooms.
I was very clear to him (he just called) that M was reticent and had his doubts, and is on the fence. (This ruse we agreed upon M and I, kind of like good and bad cop, because the minute my son gets an inch he devours your arm.) An example, in the phone call where I reiterated the conditions: everything documented and confirmed by random drug tests, documentation he is getting medical and psychiatric treatment, bills paid, some productive goal identified and continuous work to realize it...like an idiot he says this: after I have demonstrated I am doing this, will you guys relent on the marijuana? I feel that is fair.
And I say: J. You seem not to want to understand. You are free to use marijuana right now. Just not near me either using it or under the influence, or any space I control. Neither M or I will help or support you while you use drugs. And furthermore, by this comment you demonstrate a lack of acceptance of your situation and what will be required of you to work your way out of it. You have thousands of dollars of unpaid bills. You do not have a marketable skill that I am aware of to support yourself. Etcetera.
I am not saying this to be critical or to pile on. But where is there space in this scenario to buy hundreds of dollars of marijuana which by my observation seems to be your primary motivation and goal?
I cannot make a decision about your use of marijuana, but I can decide whether or not I let you stay at 20th or help you in any other way. You make your own decision about marijuana, but realize their will be consequences.
It frustrates me that you seem not to accept or see that if you invested a year in learning a trade or in gaining entry into a good university, wherever you wanted to go--once productive and autonomous you could make every single call in your life, without necessity to adhere to my conditions, which I agree are not my right to make.
It is only in my space, and wanting my help, that brings my right and obligation to set conditions for my own life. Which is what I am doing.
When I told M about the marijuana comment he despaired: He doesn't want to change, M said. And I answered, I am unsure if he is just a fool or there is some personality constraint, or both.
We are off to the races. Again.
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The problem with addiction is catch 22 you are addicted your brain needs it to get rid of that you need to want to get rid of the addiction and now you have to overpower your brain so that will happen.
He does not need to learn a trade or go to university to get a job a huge amount of people that have a trade and went to university do not use their diploma what they did learn from their experience is work ethic of a certain extent which helps you keep a job and reduce anxiety in getting one.
He does not need to learn a trade or go to university to get a job a huge amount of people that have a trade and went to university do not use their diploma what they did learn from their experience is work ethic of a certain extent which helps you keep a job and reduce anxiety in getting one.
Copabanana
Well-Known Member
Hi A Dad. Is it late night where you live? I always wonder where in the world you live. My guess has varied between some country in Eastern Europe to North Africa to even Greece. Am I anywhere close?
Your written English is close to perfect, although I recall you saying you are not a native speaker.
You know we only speak Spanish at home. And my son and I speak Portuguese too, except my Portuguese has collapsed, because the Spanish is now dominant. But somehow I never imagined you from Latin America.
Anyway, to the point: I always read your posts twice, at least, because of the good and realistic thinking they contain.
We have been through this before you and I: I got control over my own life through education. Many, many, many years of it. As I look back--I know there were so many other better things I could have done with those years.
So I am in absolute agreement with you. My thinking about school is knee-jerk.
The thing is, in this economy where I live, life is very marginal and difficult without an in demand skill. College is unnecessary but some expertise and skill that people need is almost a requisite to survive beyond sustenance-level.
My son will inherit money from me, in the form of property, g-d willing. I had been hopeful that we could teach him to manage it and maintain it, because if he could do this, he would have enough to live on and a home. Not to live luxuriously, but adequately.
I am reminded again that the desire is that he be in some way productive. But again, you are right. To push him to go through the rigors of school or training, for what? To please me? Just because I did it? Of course, you are right. He has told me more than once? Mom. I am not you.
One reason I turn to the idea of college is that he could just do it. Go. A community college, anybody can go to. Handled. He has something productive to do. And it will not interfere with his SSI.
He fears working at a paid job because he fears losing the government support he gets. If he works and earns beyond a certain amount, he will lose the benefit, after a time. He likes the benefit, more than he likes the idea of being productive. Which is a problem, you can well see.
So college avoids this potential problem and conflict.
M does not want my son to work with him anymore. M says my son uses the excuse of working for him, as an excuse not to do for himself. And M said: I need his help, but I do not want to give him the opportunity to use the fact he is helping me, as an excuse to not help himself.
Take care A dad. And thank you.
Your written English is close to perfect, although I recall you saying you are not a native speaker.
You know we only speak Spanish at home. And my son and I speak Portuguese too, except my Portuguese has collapsed, because the Spanish is now dominant. But somehow I never imagined you from Latin America.
Anyway, to the point: I always read your posts twice, at least, because of the good and realistic thinking they contain.
We have been through this before you and I: I got control over my own life through education. Many, many, many years of it. As I look back--I know there were so many other better things I could have done with those years.
So I am in absolute agreement with you. My thinking about school is knee-jerk.
The thing is, in this economy where I live, life is very marginal and difficult without an in demand skill. College is unnecessary but some expertise and skill that people need is almost a requisite to survive beyond sustenance-level.
My son will inherit money from me, in the form of property, g-d willing. I had been hopeful that we could teach him to manage it and maintain it, because if he could do this, he would have enough to live on and a home. Not to live luxuriously, but adequately.
I am reminded again that the desire is that he be in some way productive. But again, you are right. To push him to go through the rigors of school or training, for what? To please me? Just because I did it? Of course, you are right. He has told me more than once? Mom. I am not you.
One reason I turn to the idea of college is that he could just do it. Go. A community college, anybody can go to. Handled. He has something productive to do. And it will not interfere with his SSI.
He fears working at a paid job because he fears losing the government support he gets. If he works and earns beyond a certain amount, he will lose the benefit, after a time. He likes the benefit, more than he likes the idea of being productive. Which is a problem, you can well see.
So college avoids this potential problem and conflict.
M does not want my son to work with him anymore. M says my son uses the excuse of working for him, as an excuse not to do for himself. And M said: I need his help, but I do not want to give him the opportunity to use the fact he is helping me, as an excuse to not help himself.
Take care A dad. And thank you.
Copabanana
Well-Known Member
Yes. More and more people here in the USA view marijuana benignly. That it is not addictive. Or dangerous. My son calls it "just a plant" not acknowledging all of the genetic modifications that have been made on this "plant" and chemical alterations as well that have likely been made to weed bought on the street.
And yet he does recognize that he is addicted to it--despite calling it non-addictive. What do you think, A dad?
Eastern Europe actually and early in the morning I have a night shift technically I am at work but I am the boss so I have to wait until the other shift leader comes as the job was done hours ago I am just stuck here for another hour.
I wonder why do you thimk college is something productive do you mean in a way it puts his mind to work sense?
I wonder why do you thimk college is something productive do you mean in a way it puts his mind to work sense?
Well he admitted it now if he only wanted to get rid of it.
There is a annoying fact here and that is thar he had the willpower to overcome initial desgusting phase of weed you know coughing like a sick horse for example until he licked and that takes some tries.
How did you summoned that willpower and overcomed your body telling you to go further. The human mind is so strange.
Copabanana
Well-Known Member
My maternal grandparents came from Lithuania and Ukraine, which were then dominated by Russia.
He would be around other people. If he went to class. The more I think about this, I think it would be a mistake. An easy fix in my own mind--that would lead to more problems.
While he is not much interested in the work he did with M--remodeling, it was good for him and he liked the physical labor part of it. A lot of the time he shirked it, but M said some days he worked hard and well. M had him doing the "kid" unskilled part of the work=the most advanced was painting. But mostly taping, and sweeping, and removing nails. But he did it. Mostly.
I really fear that absent somebody standing over him on top of him, he will not do what he needs to do. Because thus far he has not. Until this day he is not much motivated by an internal drive, as I was.
He loves physical exercise, especially walking. There was a time he loved martial arts--brasilian martial arts, particularly, but that is long ago in the rear view mirror. He is extremely excellent with languages. As I said he is trilingual. He taught himself Portuguese, and he also taught himself Latin, Italian, and some French.
But what good can this do? There are few Latins, Italians or French living near us--but I guess I should console myself that he is able to speak to the many Latinos and Portuguese that do live near.
Oh, A dad, I do despair.
You know a very famous singer/composer, actually Canadian originally, at age 82. He was gifted and brilliant and troubled from an influential and well to do Canadian family. I keep wondering--how did his mother stand it--when he went to Greece to write songs, and use drugs?
Good question. Yes. What you say. It can put one's mind to work. But not necessarily. Many students blow it off. He did too, mostly, when he went.
He would be around other people. If he went to class. The more I think about this, I think it would be a mistake. An easy fix in my own mind--that would lead to more problems.
While he is not much interested in the work he did with M--remodeling, it was good for him and he liked the physical labor part of it. A lot of the time he shirked it, but M said some days he worked hard and well. M had him doing the "kid" unskilled part of the work=the most advanced was painting. But mostly taping, and sweeping, and removing nails. But he did it. Mostly.
I really fear that absent somebody standing over him on top of him, he will not do what he needs to do. Because thus far he has not. Until this day he is not much motivated by an internal drive, as I was.
He loves physical exercise, especially walking. There was a time he loved martial arts--brasilian martial arts, particularly, but that is long ago in the rear view mirror. He is extremely excellent with languages. As I said he is trilingual. He taught himself Portuguese, and he also taught himself Latin, Italian, and some French.
But what good can this do? There are few Latins, Italians or French living near us--but I guess I should console myself that he is able to speak to the many Latinos and Portuguese that do live near.
Oh, A dad, I do despair.
You know a very famous singer/composer, actually Canadian originally, at age 82. He was gifted and brilliant and troubled from an influential and well to do Canadian family. I keep wondering--how did his mother stand it--when he went to Greece to write songs, and use drugs?
Copabanana
Well-Known Member
Funny.
Understatement. We are so alike, all of us, under the skin.
You know I want to convey something that may not come across about my child: he is such a sweet man. Such a loving person, one side of him. And so easy to love.
He came home tonight, humbled, appreciative, open. While I do not need him humble, I do not appreciate his arrogance, defensiveness, argumentativeness, and self-righteousness.
I guess for right now, this moment, I will focus on loving him and trying not to worry so much.
Thank you, A Dad. I think we are the only ones here, almost. It is mid-evening where I am and around dawn where you are, I would guess. Have a good sleep when you get home. Are you able to sleep while you are at work in the wee hours?
New Leaf
Well-Known Member
Jetsam it is the same with my Rain, I was the focus of anger. It is triangulation. You are the one who sees the reality of the situation so you are the threat to your sons as is status in his mind. It is a hard game to be in. I am sorry for that. My hubs passed before we were near any sort of resolution. That is hard, too.
Leafy
