Frustrated

[Nomad]

our daughter is bipolar. Has a likely brain injury as well.

She moved out when she was19. She would OFTEN get evicted within one month from apartments. This caused constant loss of first and last month etc. she would get evicted for being too loud or having “weird” friends over.

She got a little better for awhile, but we intervened st some point. Still problems but lasting like 6-7 months.

No details please, but we helped her get a condo.

Ironically, down stairs from her is a person who is also mentally ill. His family purchased the unit for him. What hideous luck. I can cry.

She has been a little better than previous. But, still does odd things. Still can make too much noise. She lets a homeless friend sleep over sometimes and the guy downstairs picks up on it immediately and tells everyone in the complex.

He hates her and has been out to get her. Sadly has ammunition , but making it extra weird is he is also “unwell” and embellishes.

I’m beside myself as we just got a letter basically saying that she might be evicted. It’s been two years.

She is overweight and he complains that she makes too much noise when she walks. This is unfair. We just put in new carpet with padding to help with noise.

The problem is there is some truth to what he says, but he is not well and actually exaggerated an already problematic situation.

I’m so frustrated I could scream. It reminds me of when she was in school. She would say something sarcastic and uncalled for to a bully. The bully would call her fat and punch her. Although that is NEVER ok, she kind of started it.

Bottom line is she BARELY ever learns from her mistakes. It’s futile.
I’m beyond frustrated. Always constant freakin drama trauma. I’m beyond fed up.

 

[Copabanana]

just got a letter basically saying that she might be evicted. It’s been two years.

I am sorry Nomad for this stress which you do not need; nobody does.

How can she be evicted? I thought you owned the condo.

There are protections under the Americans with Disabilities Act. (Actually, I think the applicable law is the Fair Housing Act.) My understanding is that she can't be discriminated against for behaviors related to her qualifying condition, under the law. If landlords everywhere in the country must accept all manner of pets as therapy animals because they are therapy dogs or cats or hamsters, how can they target your daughter?

I would google this. I would also think about having an attorney write a very strong and aggressive letter. I don't think they can do this.

I would also become familiar with the laws governing this area. Millions and millions of people are seriously mentally ill. Does this mean that they do not have the legal right to live in apartments or condos?

I think this is discrimination and harassment.

The fact that your daughter does not learn and behaves oddly occasionally is related to something over which she has no control. She can't be targeted for this, in my opinion.

There are public organizations that deal with law related to disabled people. Center for Independent Living in Berkeley, CA is one of these. They were the ones behind the Americans with Disabilities Act. I would call them and find out what to do.

As far as his complaint that because she is overweight she makes too much noise, give me a break. This is clearly discriminatory.

I think you need to separate your frustration with her, from this situation which is NOT her fault. I understand you are fed up, but SHE is not doing this. Other people are. She is only being herself. Unfortunately. She IS difficult. I feel bad for you.

 

[Copabanana]

https://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1049&context=njlsp

What I wrote above is correct. It is illegal to target her for behaviors related to her disability. They would be breaking state and federal law. The landlord is obligated to offer reasonable accommodation. But you need to act now. Once eviction is started, this article implies it's harder or impossible. I didn't read the whole article.

I would get legal help NOW.

 

[Copabanana]

Guide to Eviction Where a Tenant is Disabled
Introduction
In response to any possession claim by a private landlord, even under Section 21, the tenant may have a defence if he/she is disabled, whether physically or mentally. There will then be an additional requirement placed on the landlord to prove that the eviction is proportionate.

Any eviction which results from discrimination where one of the protected characteristics of race, sex etc. is involved may be unlawful but particular issues arise in disability discrimination. Firstly there are special provisions applicable to cases involving disability and secondly it is possible that the tenant will allege that failure to comply with the tenancy terms, e.g. pay the rent or if there is anti-social behaviour, is a consequence of illness, especially mental illness.

Disability discrimination
The Equality Act 2010 prohibits both direct and indirect discrimination against disabled persons. However, additionally it contains an additional type of discrimination which is specific to people with a disability, i.e. discrimination in consequence of a person's disability. This arises if a landlord treats a tenant unfavourably because of something arising in consequence of the tenant's disability and the landlord cannot show that the treatment is a "proportionate means of achieving a legitimate end".

However, this does not apply if the landlord can prove that he did not know (and could not reasonably be expected to know) if the tenant had the disability.

In particular there can be discrimination in this situation for the landlord to evict the tenant or to take steps for the purposes of securing his/her eviction, e.g. serving a Section 21 notice.

These provisions apply both to social landlords and private landlords. The burden will be on the landlord to show that the tenant should be evicted.

A tenant will be disabled if he/she suffers from a recognised mental or physical illness which has a long term effect, normally lasting for a year or more. If there are facts indicating that the eviction is because of something arising in consequence of a person's disability it will then be for the landlord to prove that it was not. If he/she cannot do so then the landlord would have to show that, nevertheless, eviction was proportionate.

Is eviction justified?
The question to be asked is whether eviction is proportionate. You have to see whether there is any lesser measure which might achieve the landlord's aims. A balance has to be struck between the seriousness of the impact on the tenant and the importance of the landlord's aims. The underlying principle is that the tenant's behaviour may be a consequence of their disability. You have to look to see whether the landlord has done all it can be reasonably expected of him/her to accommodate the consequences of the disabled persons disability. The effects on the tenant have to be outweighed by the advantages of evicting him/her.

The procedure to be adopted

Landlords who take possession actions in Court know that defences of this kind often arise at the hearing for the first time and landlords can view them as being delaying tactics. In the first instance the Court has to consider whether the claim for possession is genuine on grounds that appear to be substantial. Otherwise, the case could be summarily disposed of at the first hearing. For a case to be disposed of summarily the landlord could show (i) that the tenant had no real prospect of proving that he/she was disabled or (ii) that it was plain that possession was not sought because of something arising in consequence of the tenant's disability or (iii) that bringing the claim was clearly a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.

The decision by the Supreme Court in Akerman-Livingstone however indicates that this is likely to be rare in the situation where a tenant's defence of this kind can be dismissed summarily.

Likely outcomes
Two situations where a landlord could encounter this kind of defence are where there are rent arrears or where the tenant is guilty of anti-social behaviour, particularly affecting neighbours. A landlord relying on Section 21 (or indeed Section 8 claims such as serious rent arrears) would have to demonstrate what actions had been tried short of eviction. For example, direct payment to the landlord where the tenant receives benefits or some other arrangement to secure that the rent was paid would have to be looked at. In the case of anti-social behaviour, interventions, e.g. by social workers, might assist.

Nevertheless, it is unlikely that the Courts would require a landlord to accrue substantial rent arrears or to require adjoining occupiers/neighbours to put up with anti-social behaviour, even if it is a result of the tenant's mental illness. Each case would turn very much on its own circumstances. In particular, where a landlord is aware that the tenant is suffering from a disability, particularly a mental illness, the landlord would have to think about a claim for possession carefully before starting proceedings. In this instance the normal "no fault" right to claim possession under Section 21 would be displaced so the landlord would have to demonstrate that requiring possession was proportionate. As cases will turn on their own facts it is quite possible that, if a defence is raised, there will have to be a full hearing and the case will not be disposed of summarily.

This was from the Residential Landlord Association. It looks like it's from Canada or Great Britain, sorry, because they're writing about behaviours, but it may help. The internet is full of information, though.

 

[Copabanana]

Even if you don't want to involve an attorney, I would still reach out to a Disability Rights organization. Or if you don't want to do that, I would myself write a VERY STRONG LETTER letting the condo board know that you know her rights and will fight for them. They may well hesitate if you put into writing that you know she has state and federal protections, and that you are requesting protections on her behalf, etc.

I can't believe that they are harassing her because she is fat. That is so very wrong.

Many years ago I had a friend who was being harassed in his condo that he owned because he coughed. Geez.

 

[Nomad]

I agree. Thank you. It took me a few hours to get to this point and then I read what you write and it confirmed and solidified it all.

It is so complicated and convoluted. It would be too burdensome to describe it all.

He has turned a nice group of people at the condo against her convincing them that she is a drug addict and what not. (She is not!)

It’s somewhat believable (I suppose) because of her weird friends and odd behaviors. Plus, there is the legit stuff too. Now we have legit complaints combined with fictitious ones (that many believe are true) and everything in between.

He is more “unwell” than her “punishing” the flowers by playing his music loud and so forth.

But most of his oddities and actual abuse has been clandestine like quietly calling her a “fat bxxch.” Then she replies loudly “ F you,” and all hear it.

It’s a similar song and dance from school days.

Plus she does push the limit with certain condo rules.

I’m just frustrated to the max. It just never stops. Daily I get insane phone calls from her with deadly diseases she thinks she has, depression, anxiety...arguments with him and practically everyone at some point.

I’ll re read what you wrote. The lawyer friend who usually helps us has a critically ill parent and we are out of luck there. Might need to go a different, more expensive route.

I’m tired and did I mention FRUSTRATEd?

Many thanks.

 

[Copabanana]

He has turned a nice group of people at the condo against her convincing them that she is a drug addict and what not. (She is not!)

I am not an attorney nor do I have expertise or experience in this matter. But. There are many mental illnesses that could mimic drug use. Also, this tenant or owner who is instigating this is treading on thin ice, himself. This is libel and harassment. I would ask the attorney to send him a threatening letter that he will be sued for millions of dollars if he persists to lie and to libel your daughter. Allegations of drug use can be easily disproved, by routine voluntary drug testing. I would not volunteer that but people CAN'T go around accusing people of illegal drug use wily nilly. Both the condo association and this man need to be told that ALL legal remedies will be aggressively pursued AGAINST THEM.

I feel pretty sure that Disability Rights Organizations would take this case pro bono. Because this is an issue that affects millions of people. This is WRONG.

I am getting SO PISSED OFF, that I wish I was an attorney. Something I have NEVER wished in my whole life.

 

[Copabanana]

“punishing” the flowers by playing his music loud and so forth.

WHAAAT?

 

[Nomad]

They are both “unwell.”

In some ways, he is more “unwell” than her.

 

[Nomad]

What bothers me is if she didn’t sometimes break the rules , this would be an easy no brainer. And if she were nice to people, it also would help. She was so blessed to have the HOA president on her side. This woman , who is an unusually strict and self disciplined woman ....by some miracle, looked past the oddities that is our daughter. Didn’t judge her by her clothing and things many many people tend to judge her for. She was kind and patient. And jumped to her defense when the extremely mean and disordered person downstairs picked on her. So....you would think our daughter would of been appreciative or grateful. No. Such things don’t seem to exist in the world of our kids. Instead, she continued to break rules and picked fights with this woman who was her friend, her defender and even more interesting a woman in authority who could help her out and did help her out repeatedly. So, even though the HOA president loathed the guy downstairs and was doing everything in her power to help our daughter, she is so furious right now with our daughter for breaking rules and being out right mean to her, she walked away and won’t defend her and she is in a very bad situation at the moment. We told her repeatedly that we would help her and we did and together with the HOA president, she was in fairly good shape and that it was a blessing to have this woman on her side and as an understanding friend too. Why would she be mean to a friend helping her? Somehow the tables have turned. She (HOA President) might think the guy downstairs is very unwell (we know she thinks this) but if he doesn’t break rules and leaves her alone she can tolerate it better than our daughter’s issues...Yes, it was a difficult situation to be sure, but all she had to do was call the HOA president who lives on the property and she would come to her defense in a heartbeat. This helped a lot. But when our daughter breaks rules and was mean to the woman, things changed. It makes no sense.
We are so frustrated.

 

[AppleCori]

She might possibly be evicted from the condo owned by her/you?

How can they force someone from their own home without even having the courts involved? Can they force a sale?

Many of our kids seem to have a persecution complex and distorted thought processes. This is part of their challenges to getting along in the world. Does she have a counselor that could help her address this?

I’m sure the board and the other tenants are weary of dealing with two mentally ill difficult people, and I do feel bad for them.

I doubt, however, that the law would allow someone to be evicted because of their weight.

 

[Nomad]

This is only very partially with reference to her weight. True, the guy downstairs has made an issue of her weight and the noise when she walks.

If it were just that or similar unfair and unkind comments , no one in a million years would take him seriously especially if you combine the fact that he is also mentally ill.

But she has broken rules and has been unkind to the HOA president, the very person who has tried to help her.

It’s a convoluted mess now trying to sort through what is true and what is untrue.

But sadly there are some things that seem to be true.

She refuses to see a counselor. Bingo on the persecution thing. Shocking as we thought it a miracle she had this woman in her corner for so long. She never appreciated it.

She is proposing moving and possibly living in an apart in a dangerous part of the city.

Also...HOA and management can force her out for breaking rules. Landlord must have tenants who abide by the rules.

 

[RN0441]

Nomad: I am so sorry you are dealing with this and it does sound like a mess.

I honestly don't know what I'd do in this situation but is it yours to fix or can you even fix it? What do you feel that you could or should do?

 

[Nomad]

We wrote a strong letter to the management company defending her and saying she has been harassed by the guy downstairs. We also mentioned her rights as a disabled person.

She has been texting and complaining to us Today left and right. Although she has some right to complain about the guy downstairs, she was getting a lot of support. We even told her that if the guy downstairs doesn’t back off, next summer we would consider helping her get another place. I was against this. Hubby’s idea. After he told her that, she was more willing to break rules and threw it in the HOA president’s face too that she can and probably will move.

So now her attitude is just buy me a new place.

I said if you can’t follow rules, it doesn’t matter where you live. And her unappreciative attitude toward us and that this HOA president sickens me.

She was texting like crazy today and I asked her to hold off calling or texting until after 5:15 today as we were (and are) both busy.

Here is her response , after insisting we get her a new place. Mind you she is almost 32. And keep in mind I have ongoing health problems and her dad is pushing 70:

“u know what whatever im done with this bs anyway nobody cares about me and my needs anyway... its like ive always said nobody listens to me”

 

[Copabanana]

I'm pissed at her for you.

I would not buy another place. What would change? It's like rewarding her for behaving badly.

I'd let her leave and rent out the condo until if and when she's motivated to follow rules.
I'm sorry Nomad.

 

[Nomad]

She will never be allowed back into that place. They will never agree to it.
So her going back there at some future date would never happen.

Her disability check will only get her an apartment in bad areas of town. We won’t be helping. This might be her future. It ain’t looking good.

 

[Copabanana]

Then she needs to understand what her situation is and that only she can repair it. If she's not motivated to do so, or can't understand her situation, what can you do?

By her attitude she does understand power. She felt empowered by the offer of another condo. Now she needs to understand the consequences of lacking good options.

It's painful and frustrating and for me, scary. As my son has limitations too.

 

[BusynMember1]

She sounds unable to understand rhe situation. Does she have a disability caseworker? I would ask her to sign for permission for you to talk to the case manager. She may need a group home for the mentally ill. Or disabled. Although her behavior is poor, it doesn't sound to me as if she can understand enough to control herself. There is a difference in my opinion between people who can and people who can not.

Those possibly affected by drugs and alcohol sometimes have brain damage that causes an inability to reason. I don't know if my daughter has this or not. Do you know anything about her birthmother? Did she drink?

To us we constantly wonder if Kay is incompetent.But she refuses any testing.

 

[Nomad]

She won’t agree to testing or counseling.

She’s had luck out good almost miraculous housing situations before and has blown them to heck.

Due to lack of funds she has ended up in some hideous, scary places. Drug invested...crime etc.

She has little cause and effect reasoning. Has very slightly improved in last year or two.

She had a brain aneurysm in elementary school. Repaired. Brain surgery.

Higher than average iq

birthfather May have been a cocaine user. Unsure about birthmother. But she clearly had access to cocaine. Birthmother was clean at time of delivery.

We tried years ago to get a caseworker and for whatever reason, never could. She also has made it clear she won’t cooperate with one. I told her I would hire for her a coach instead, but she refused. She tends to think she is doing fine. So not doing fine. Sigh.

 

[BusynMember1]

I get this entire scenario. They really are NOT capable, but they either refuse to admit it by getting the proper help or they truly believe that they are fine. This, in spite of not ever being able to make it in life on their own. Kay is married and barely making it even with a partner, although he has always had issues too, according to his bereft parents who also would like him and Kay to accept professional help.

They won't.

Kay has a high verbal IQ and slightly higher than average IQ as a whole, but she is absolutely terrified to work, unable to work or unwilling to work. Who knows? She is very disorganized in her environment and in thought.

My thinking is that if the birthmother used any drug, she probably also drank. Its too bad that adoptive parents usually get such poor information. That leaves us with little knowledge as we try to raise them and as adults to try to assess why they don't thrive.

I am sorry that you have to deal with helping a child who won't or can't take care of herself. I don't know about your daughter, but talking to Kay is like talking to an alien sometimes. She is incompatible with logic and believes the most bizarre conspiracy theories. I am surprised she doesn't think that the earth is flat. Maybe she does.

God bless you. This is very hard to do.