How do you deal with your difficult child's insults, etc?

[Malika]

Yes, step, natural consequences are the BEST, and the learn from them the BEST too.

But when it comes to safety all the psychiatrists and phophs etched into my brain that I had to have consequences for unsafe behavior. Not only does it hopefully curb that behavior, but it also states to the child that you love them enough to keep them safe.

Yes, I think that might be a desirable line in the sand to draw... behaviour that is not safe. Just today we had an incident involving bleeding after J took his child's scissors without my knowledge... I think J would also actually understand and respect that one.

 

[DammitJanet]

No child likes consequences. Heck no person likes consequences. Fact is you have to impose consequences to show them that what they did was wrong. If he throws a fit while the consequence is being handed down you have to deal with it. It will get less with time. He has learned that if he throws a big enough fit, you will let him out of his time out or whatever punishment you have set. It is a pain in the ass to discipline children but that is what parenting is. Parenting is hard work. You have to control him now at 5 if you want to have a hope and a prayer of having control at 15. If you cannot set limits now and hand down punishments and consequences now there is no way you will be able to do it when he is a teen. He is still small enough for you to handle what he dishes out and stand firm when he throws these fits. You have to be stronger than he is so he respects your authority otherwise he believes he is the boss and that simply cannot work.

 

[Steely]

Malika -- Matt would do the same thing. He would go off the deep end if I "took" something away as a consequence.

Starting with safe behavior is a good base because then J can understand it is because you love him and don't want him to be hurt in any way. Especially at his age this will feel comforting and warm to him.

With Matt I got VERY creative with consequences - and gosh - I can barely think of them right now. I know one that worked very well is making him "work" as a consequence. Making him go rake leaves, pull weeds, take the dog for a walk, ride his bike 3 times around the block, or write me an apology letter, etc....those types of things worked much better than me snatching up his Xbox for a week. Another one I would use is, instead of taking away tv time, I would only let him watch educational tv. I just really tried to think outside of the box to still implement a consequence, but not one that involved "taking something away" in his mind. I don't know if that was the right thing to do or not. I know a lot of parents on this board are a lot more black and white than I was - and maybe that is more what Matt needed. I don't know. As a single working Mom, like you, I did as much as I could without losing my mind.

 

[Malika]

Well... the thing is, Steely, one has to be oneself with one's children. You were being authentic and Matt would have responded to that. Trying to be someone else or following someone else's vision or way of being may work for a short time but will inevitably break down and fizzle out. You will obviously never know whether if you had been different in some way, he would have turned out differently... one is tempted to presume not.
Honestly, I really like the raking leaves and doing jobs. This could work for J. Trying to take something away from him will just lead to more horror than is good for either of us. One has to know when to bend and flow, and when to stand firm... that may not exactly be work, but it is a question of discrimination.

 

[Steely]

Very true Malika - I did my very, very best - and I know that much is my truth. At least I feel like I got an internal award for being a creative disciplinarian. LOL

I think when Matt was J's age my favorite consequence was making him ride his bike a certain number of times back and forth down the street. He LOVED riding his bike - but he didn't like me making him ride in a straight line a certain number of times. I also would make him run or do push ups sometimes - because god only knows that time outs did not work. Yes, please, raging child, sit in a room and be calm. LOL. He needed to release what was burning within him. I actually even got the school to do this at one time. He was 5 and they always put him in the hall when he was in trouble, and all he would do is fester and get more angry. So I convinced them to make him run around the playground 2 times or something like that instead of sitting.

 

[buddy]

Very smart. Natural consequences are not always possible and do not always work. For Q any attention, even negative can reinforce a behavior. But I do use a lot of logical consequences and sometimes I have to point out my logic to him, LOL Like if he simply "can't help it" when he does something then I say, thanks for letting me know, it is my job to help you then. And I provide a situation where he can either rest his brain if earlier bed time is needed, or he carries things to keep his hands busy or whatever... I let him know why he needs to do what I am telling him. I think your point of needing to be yourself is important. Of course that does not mean we can just give in to urges and anger in an inappropriate way. but our style of parenting does have to match our genuine selves. Kids can easily see thru fake.

 

[pepperidge]

Explosive child does not promote consequences...unless the child is actually capable of the behavior that you are trying to consequence. Otherwise consequences often lead to more explosions.

 

[exhausted]

In Green's other book, “Lost at School” (which is very practical-step by step) you actually "collaborate" with the kid for solutions. "What should happen when you do X?"

One of my favorite and most successful interventions when my son was young and I was teaching kindergarten was a strategy I got from the "Tough Kid Tool Box", by Jensen. It was called "Bumpy Bunny Timeout". At home we had one of my son's favorite toys which we placed on the window sill (low and visible). There were marks (tape) along the way where this toy, the proverbial "Bunny", could move to. Kind of a race track. There was also a timeout "mat" made from paper. I found this strategy easy to use and my son (who had some of these same melt-down moments) had less of a problem moving this toy along the track forward or backward or to time out if need be-it was a consequence that he accepted.. When he was doing well, the toy got moved along (when it reached its destination he got time to play with it) and he would often ask me to notice his good behavior (self-advocacy at 4/5/6). There were those times when he had to put it into timeout. We had negotiated the whole thing during a quiet moment. It was very effective for some time. Of course we changed the toy from time to time to keep motivation. The goal for me was to increase the positive interactions. (There is a whole new parenting book out about this-name escapes me.) When those interactions are increased really great stuff happens for kids. They start to feel competent, they want these + interactions with their parent, that negative feedback loop ends. It forced me to focus on the positive and notice more. I never threatened that I would be having him move his toy or anything. It was all matter of fact-we had practiced it all during a calm time. He also knew that throwing a fit about moving it would result in the toy being in time out for X amount of time.

I have never had the physical stuff coming at me, but I did have “royal- throws myself on the floor” stuff. This ended well before he started school. I did have some very seriously disabled kiddos in my kindergarten Special Education. group-they were inclusion kids and I co-taught with the regular ed. teacher. It worked pretty well there as well.

I agree with the others to withdraw yourself from the room if you can when he gets physical (kicking chair) or verbally aggressive. But you should always revisit the situation when he is calm (maybe next day) I agree also about cutting TV time and overstimulation in the evening.

 

[Malika]

Thanks for your comments.
Just to clarify: J has never watched television in the evening. He doesn't watch it at all on school days. But this being holidays, he has been watching it as a treat, at home and at the childminder's. And he just gets... compulsive about it. So now my TV has mysteriously broken down, which it has before, and he has just accepted that. What he does do a lot of is listen to audio stories on the computer - no pictures, just a voice narrating. These are great, and he has been introduced to some of the Greek myths, for example. The story of Cyclops, the one-eyed giant (who ate Odysseus's men and was blinded by Odysseus) is his favourite and he amazed me the other day by reciting the whole story, which is long, with great chunks of the text word for word - some complex vocabulary and no way I can remember it like that... And obviously I read him stories too.
I was very interested in your strategy, exhausted. Do you mean that the child enacts a consequence on the toy, rather than undergoing it him/herself? Or have I misunderstood? I really liked what you said about ending the negative loop.
My gut tells me that consequences in the conventional sense are never going to work for J. He does have kindness, respect for others and responsibility within him and it seems that this is facilitated by positive means, never by negative ones. But I do want there to be some sense of something happening as a result of him being aggressive, etc. Not in a punitive sense but because he needs to understand that an unacceptable boundary has been crossed. I am going to think of how to tackle this and sit down with him to agree consequences for extreme behaviours. I favour doing something constructive within the house, for example. The heart of the problem lies in J's inability to control his impulses and emotions. I think this is also related to his anxiety. Things escalate needlessly to the "red zone" all the time and immediately... This morning, for example, he began shouting and wailing because I said that I had put a football shirt he wanted in the laundry basket. One would have said the house was on fire. When I very calmly and gently said "J, it doesn't matter, it's okay, we'll just get it out again", he calmed down straightaway. Some sort of anxiety about not having things at once or seeing them, I don't know... He also has difficulty seeing other people's viewpoints - not conceptually or even empathetically but in the sense that he cannot or does not want to see that other people's needs are in any way important when they rival his own. This is one of his main social skills deficits, I would say. At the moment he has friends at school and the leisure centre, but is this going to get harder as children mature and want more genuine co-operation in their relationships? More genuine friendship, that is...

 

[DDD]

Althought I don't have "answers" I thought I'd pipe in and offer one thought. I am a strong believer in consistency with difficult child's. It's terribly restrictive for parents but very reassuring for difficult child's as they don't have to cope with the unexpected and make choices "on the fly" so to speak. The reason I'm adding it to this thread is that in my parenting years I found experimenting with different methods confused the heck out of difficult child. If you change your structure I'd suggest alot of forethought and a gradual switch over while you see what works and what doesn't. Like many parents I would read of a "good idea" and give it a try but honestly I often added to difficult child problems by experimenting too often. Of course I never was able to change a difficult child to a easy child, lol, but analyzing my behaviors, difficult child behaviors and our schedule came first...then occasionally a supplemental plan was introduced. Some worked at my house and some did not but absolutely "slow and easy" was the best way to try to improve our home life. Hugs DDD

 

[Malika]

Oh, yes, you're quite right. Learning to manage and live with a difficult child is obviously difficult and involves much research and reflection (since I have had relatively little input from the outside) and I have indeed jigged around a bit in my parenting style, trying to find what works. And consistency is best - but it takes a while to get there

 

[DDD]

"It takes a while to get there" is an understatement. It lasts at least eighteen years with adaptations along the way. You may not end up with everything the way you hope but at least you can look back and know that you did your best. I'm sure you'll have few regrets as your motivation is love. DDD

 

[exhausted]

Malika,
I agree with DDD-on both accounts-consequences are important (the world runs on them both naturally and man made-can't avoid it), and to be consistant with your style. I am and have always been a pretty strict and structured parent. The "bumpy bunny thing" just fit my style-it made it easy to be positive and consistant. I used all kinds of tokens-we had a token economy (still use one in my classroom). The "toy" is a token (for the child) and yes it gets time out (in this day of electronics maybe the toy is computer/t.v./game) or moved along or back.

It is just a lot of work raising kids. A difficult child takes our energy 2 fold. When my kids were J's age-I felt as if I had no life-work and home. It was double bad because there were so few neighborhood friends. No break for me-or only occational breaks. My husband worked nights during a lot of this time as well!

I have to tell you in 25 years of teaching, I have never had a kid that didn't respond to something which had positive consequences. I have had to work to find the motivatrion and often come up with something individual-but it can happen.

I really think all these issues can be handled he can learn more and more self-control. By the way, putting other's needs before his is not even developmentally normal at his age (not even at age 12 is it solid). Hugs

 

[Steely]

Gosh - I love the bumpy bunny thing - I wish had thought of that when Matt was little. Very cool!!!

 

[HaoZi]

Anyone else's difficult children rage because you require them to (heaven forbid) clean up after themselves? Kiddo absolutely lost it on me today several times because of this. I took away all the fun stuff (and the internet only just came back on a while ago) and she was raging so badly while I had her in a hold that I'm putting serious consideration into getting a stun gun. I'm worried her natural consequences are going to involve some other kid hauling off and hitting her back and/or criminal charges before she's a teen. She broke her glasses and it'll be at least two weeks to get her a new pair, eye doctor had no openings until Jan 4th and add another week for her special lenses. All because I wanted the place clean before my birthday so I don't spend that all stressed out. It's still not clean and birthday is tomorrow. *sigh*

 

[buddy]

wow Haozi... Q has snapped his glasses too. I always keep his old rx just in case. Are the lenses ok? Can you just have them at least put those in new frames and then still get the new rx later or are you limited in how many glasses you can get? Fortunately I can get Q's fixed as many times each year (or get new ones) as he needs. Even if he breaks them. But the choices are limited. I wont buy him better ones though until he is consistently caring for them well.

Those kinds of rages... arrrggg..... I have joked about a stun gun too. though I am afraid he woudl seizure or have a heart attack in real life if anyone used one. Q got some play handcuffs today when with Integrated Listening Systems (ILS) worker. sad to say I have wondered about that too! I would never (though all of us moms in our family have joked about cattle prods and duct tape, then you hear of people really using that stuff in awful ways and the joke is not so funny anymore)

But I do get the feelings. Kids being aggressive to that degree is just not something that feels natural to deal with. Takes so much thought, as this thread proves, to deal with it all. You are definitely not alone.

 

[InsaneCdn]

Anyone else's difficult children rage because you require them to (heaven forbid) clean up after themselves? Kiddo absolutely lost it on me today several times because of this. I took away all the fun stuff (and the internet only just came back on a while ago) and she was raging so badly while I had her in a hold that I'm putting serious consideration into getting a stun gun. I'm worried her natural consequences are going to involve some other kid hauling off and hitting her back and/or criminal charges before she's a teen. She broke her glasses and it'll be at least two weeks to get her a new pair, eye doctor had no openings until Jan 4th and add another week for her special lenses. All because I wanted the place clean before my birthday so I don't spend that all stressed out. It's still not clean and birthday is tomorrow. *sigh*

HaoZi...
Mind if I toss out some of the things that I've had to do?

First,I had to recognize:
1) that kids hate being "sent" to clean their room... doing a cruddy task, all by yourself, is just plain yuck.
2) that it is easier to spiff up an area that is relatively clean, than to start with a major mess.
3) that it is easier to make decisions about other people's stuff.
4) that so much of this battle, is... typical kid.

So...
My kids have had to learn to... vacuum (hallways), dust, clean sinks and tubs, polish mirrors, load/unload dishwasher, fold towels.
These "public space" tasks, they are expected to do when husband and/or I are doing "public space" tasks.
One kid (or husband) lifts furniture, the other vacuums... while someone else dusts and tidies up.
Or, one cleans the tub, one cleans the sink, and I come behind and do the toilet and floor.

But...
When it comes to THEIR room,
<sigh>
Its not just a difficult child thing.
It depends on the kid.

K2... loves a clean (and tidy) room, but just can't keep it that way. Doesn't like me to "do it for her", but definitely prefers a "together" task.

K1... hates a clean room - as in, "neat and tidy". Still negotiating, but I do insist that across a 2 week period, every part of the room gets totally clean at least once... desk cleared and cleaned, chairs empty, bed re-made really neat (he gets that one!), and so on. I've had to accept that "clean" is not the same as "tidy".

According to our favorite (we outgrew her age-of-service parameters) tdocs... among the most frequent discord between kids and parents are: clean rooms, bedtime, music practice...

 

[HaoZi]

I didn't even send her to clean her room (though it badly needs it). I told her to find something she knows how to clean (like dusting, picking up obvious stuff, folding towels, etc) and just do something to help, her choice, while I cleaned my room and did the dishes. She just flat didn't want to do anything but play the Angry Birds game on the Roku.
(And having seen the price of joining band, even with financial aid, she's forbidden from joining when she gets that old - especially since she'll want to play drums!)

She's agreed to help some today, but we have plans for later to go to movie and lunch, so she knows she doesn't have to complete it. She does a lot of puttering around when she does help and we use the timer (10 minutes of cleaning, 50 minutes of play).

I like the rest though, and will try to remember. We'll see what the day brings.

 

[Steely]

Matt would rage over absolutely anything that sat wrong with him at any random moment. I often felt very confident he had seizures, because it would happen over the smallest, most random things - and his reactions were epic. I had him tested every which way for seizures and the tests all came back negatively - but even psychiatrist could see something was mis-firing in his brain. To tear the house apart over hey difficult child, could you find something to pick up, was very common for him.

That was kind of what I was talking about earlier in this thread though - consequences stopped being effective in any way at this point in his life. Like you, I could take everything away possible - and it did nothing, zero, zip except make him even more mad, and send him even deeper into a negative spin.

Is she small enough to do a therapeutic hold? If you do it correctly you can even do it on a kid that is the same size as you. I remember one night when Matt was 12 I had to hold him that way for 2 hours, because every time I let him go he would start to destroy the house. Bad, bad memory.

HUGS -- and I hope you manage to have a Happy Birthday.

 

[buddy]

I just turned the internet off because Q was really stuck. He said he has a headache like he has never had in his life. I said, that does not mean you can call me every name and demand to go places or else...etc. He just got revved up and started screaming and when I turned off the internet it all went up 100%. But he never threw anything or touched me! He is now cleaning up the house desperately trying to "make up for" what happened.

I know I probably could have calmed this much earlier, but once committed if I don't follow thru he will say... I knew you would do it or whatever. So no matter if he can control it or not, I had to stick thru. But still, if I would have been more thoughtful at first??? I also decided to try 1/2 concerta and 1/2 ritalin to see if I could reduce these swearing sessions that seem more connected to the concerta. Dont think it did any good, lol. OK tomorrow I try the ritalin one more time to compare but in the end we probably have to stick with concerta at school or I am gonna have to run over there and get him every time he refuses medications for them. Why that happens there only??? I think it is part of the bigger picture over there.

Just sharing how consequences caused a big blow up, but in the end now, he is calm and doing better...I get so confused sometimes. (and if I thought this would change things in the long run I would gladly stick it out, but I have been thru this so many times and it only helps for the short run and in future every time I walk by the wifi modem he will actually probably panic a little)