How do you deal with your difficult child's insults, etc?

[exhausted]

I get it. And isn't great when they have motivation to do what we want them to do?

My difficult child daughter cannot accept "no". It's always an argument, a call to renegotiate, a very "wise" pointing out of the lack of logic I am using, and all in a raised voice. When I say A_____ your voice is loud", she replies, "That is just me, I'm not loud. This is how I talk!" Same drill every time. I almost never respond, just listen. The thing is, she never gets what she wants once I have said no. There is a drive in her to make sure she enacts a consequence of equal or greater force upon me. Thus the ODD diagnosis she once had. Her running off was often associated with getting out of consequences and hurting me. It's like she was saying to herself,"Go ahead and make me stay home- you'll regret it." She wasn't this way up to age 13-just kicked in with a vengence!

The hard part is the older they get, the harder it is to enforce consequences. I do have some luck with positive consequences with her. They are a stronger method for change. I also see that her drive to do the opposite is often so impulsive. It's like her brain cannot stop herself from being defiant. There is only sometimes remorse later when she has processed things.

 

[buddy]

I also see that her drive to do the opposite is often so impulsive.

Absolutely same story here. He will even hear himself and say, OH, I didn't mean that. It is pure impulse (well maybe habit sometimes)

 

[Malika]

Buddy, you are an absolute heroine (sorry, that old theme again ) to enforce consequences the way you do. I know for sure and certain that in your place I would just give up since the behaviours just seem to repeat anyway... Yet I am sure what you are doing makes a difference, even if the results are seen only in the long term.
I think we all agreed that positive reinforcement works better with our (all?) kids than negative things. J increases his positive behaviour if I praise and encourage it, whereas I have never noticed that the negative behaviour diminishes if I criticise or punish it...

 

[Allan-Matlem]

Collaborative problem solving is ' working with ' a kid , imposing consequences is ' doing to a kid ' . Kids are not going to access the information - when I did this this is what happened to me = children do well if they can - they are lacking the skills. Consequences don't teach kids to handle frustration and think clearly. At most they teach a kid that their mistake is not to get caught and not trust their parents . If you screw up - why come to your parent for help = all they can offer is a punishment. kids won't trust you to help. The basis of cps is building trust , we rely on the kid for information to solve problems . If their is blame and consequences , they will shut down. Consequences maybe hard to enforce , so the focus moves away from what happened to now enforcing consequences. It does not require much thinking and gives parents a good feeling that at least they are doing something.

Consequences are important - not the ones we ' impose on kids ' which teaches them to ask - what's in it for me , what will I get , what will be done to me but how my actions effect other people and then help the kid engage in an autonomous way in the moral act of restitution. Let him not only come up with a better plan , but also try and repair the past. We don't want kids to comply because of a threat of a consequence or a doggie biscuit , we want them to become committed to the values we teach. The is so much research on brain development and neuroplasticity - the brain grows in a safe and loving environment where reflection and relationship are important.
If you mix in consequences , the chances of cps working is pretty slim.

The cursing, screaming etc are symptoms , the behavior - we have to look for the problem and deal with the problem , the conditions where these symptoms express themselves. Looking for solutions so that the kid can express himself more appropriately is still dealing with the symptom.

If you are following Ross Greene's approach - take his advice
focus on the problem - not the behavior
forget about consequences

Parenting is Learning

 

[buddy]

Allan-M I agree with you. However, brain injury is a different beast. People who have neurological reasons for swearing that are triggered by electrical issues (not just swearing but sometimes dangerous behaviors like pounding on things, running away in a panic etc...) sometimes need a way just to have it interrupted. Safety first. working on those things is best when it can be done. And if everytime I try to talk to him he just screams and covers his ears there is not any problem solving that can be done. I really would love for you to have him for a week and show me how because I would prefer it. But being pretty good at this stuff, I can tell you, there are times that the short run just stop the behavior... and then mitigate the damages is the only option. Research on my son's kind of brain injury shows that the best way to develop a behavior is to DO it over and over and over so that the automatic pathways become the ones most frequently used. This is true for people who do not have behavior problems but have brain injuries and just need to learn other skills. There are times when CPS works with him. We even have school people who are willing to use this more and more which I have found really hard to come by. But he is quite cognitively impaired and not able to sort through things .... which is a skill deficit we work on but until that time... these theories just do not help us alone. He sometimes is in full panic mode, or shut down completely. My goal is to avoid any escalation that will cause true danger at those moments...and auditory input is a HUGE trigger for him. Not a time to problem solve..(yes I get it that it is to be done before this, just like avoiding the trigger that caused the issue should have been considered...and use of medications should have stopped the extra electrical activity that can trigger it too...just does not always happen that way.

But as i said, all things being ideal, I would 100% agree that developing the skills and problem solving with his input to be able to make better choices and to do the right thing because it is intrinsically rewarding and important to him, would be ideal. And for sure, JUST using consequences imposed does not in the long run help in our case. But it DID and DOES temporarily stop the behavior that was escalating. And I did avoid teaching him that it was a bluff which would have really done us in. My goal would be to not have to go there, but I do agree with others that this is not real life.

I do believe that some logical consequences work because I hear my son tell me...again after a lot of working on it and combining with problem solving...the words and actions that show he learned it. (example he gave his game boy a bath two years ago.... it didnt work at all for a long time and never fully recovered. I did give it a time out for a long time until he was willing to work on the skill... he refused to discuss it as usual when in a panic and upset. "How else could I clean the screen mom???" Well, we discussed that, we practiced using the right cloth etc. The subject and impulse came over and over...we interrupted it and went to the cloth over and over... Sometimes I did have to take it away to "give the game boy" a break.... can't be safe with it, can't have it. Now he has the samsung galaxy. He said two days ago that he was going to give it a bath and I did not react wondering if he was just trying to see what I would do, lol. And immediately after that...like the thought was all one sentence...he said but that will break it forever, right mom??? He said he never wanted it to be gone because it is so special. Water would ruin it. He got the cloth and rubbed the screen gently. ) (and this not so dumb mom bought accident insurance including spills and drops in water).

I strive for problem solving but with his cognitive issues, seizure issues, tics--(which NO ONE has any good ideas on working with other than to ride them out,,,uggg) and my human mistakes, I can only try. I will for sure use consequences which are not ideal but may save us from a bigger issue and then I will have to pay the price and work through the problems that imposing that consequence created. I have found in our case that this is where you can do both and there can be problem solving after the fact. I really do not think it is either or, but each family and child is different.

I know for sure that one thing that makes it not as good for Q but is a reality in our life.... We live in a town home which has other homes on each side and one small home below us. I simply can not let him pound on their walls, scream in the middle of the night, throw things at their siding and windows, scream obscene names at them etc. And NO, the natural consequences of allowing them to call cps and police to have them intervene will not help. You think I have a hard time not imposing useless consequences.... well just let them take over. He is still reeling from our calling 911 and his having to go to the hospital with that medication reaction. All he knows is how he felt and what they said. He does not fully grasp that the medications were causing his upset. the theory is wonderful, and the methods do work in the long run once you can work with them.... I just have not found that one way of doing things works for us in real life. And I have been on board with RDI for a LLLOOOONNNGGG time, Since Q was a really little guy. Not only with him but with students.

I will just have to keep doing my best and being as kind to myself for my mistakes as I am with others.

 

[buddy]

Buddy, you are an absolute heroine (sorry, that old theme again ) to enforce consequences the way you do. I know for sure and certain that in your place I would just give up since the behaviours just seem to repeat anyway... Yet I am sure what you are doing makes a difference, even if the results are seen only in the long term.
I think we all agreed that positive reinforcement works better with our (all?) kids than negative things. J increases his positive behaviour if I praise and encourage it, whereas I have never noticed that the negative behaviour diminishes if I criticise or punish it...

thank you kindly. I really feel I wish I had been able to do more of the problem solving first. but once I caught myself making that mistake...or not really a mistake as much as it is what I really felt I needed to do at that time since he is so uncommunicative at those points.....I had to do it the way that works best for us. And that means I can't make it a HUGE consequence that will end the world forever (like no internet for a week or even a day...he has to work through how to earn it back and what to do to avoid it happening again)..... and then also not just giving up. I do think it is working and combining the ideas is not ideal but working for us and the proof of that was that he did stop and he did try to repair our relationship and to show respect in order to be able to have the privilege. But there are times I admit I realize I have gone too far and I do a total "do over " and admit to him that I made a mistake. He will sometimes say then "I knew I could get my way" which makes me want to add a million more punishments....but being his mom and knowing him well.... I really know he is just telling me the truth, not trying to be disrespectful. He really thought that. so we discussed the many times that a tantrum does not work (and he can list them too!) and then I explain why we are doing a "do over" and I am amazed at how effectively this works.... probably because it is not frequent and only in those really over the top days . I know others here have told me they do "do over" times too when you are in such a hole.

I hope you never have to go to that place. But I have full confidence you will find the things that work for you and J, and am also confident you will make mistakes like I do! After all, we are just human moms. Not perfect.

 

[DammitJanet]

This is where some of us part ways. Some of us came to this board following The Riley Method and others The Explosive Child. The explosive child didnt work at all in my house. Baskets just let Cory get away with murder. He would manipulate and triangulate everyone. He could talk a great game. The Defiant Child method was much better for us. Buddy, I dont think any of these methods are going to work with Q. You have to ride out what is happening at the time because of your unique situation. It is like attempting to control grand mal seizures by punishing them. You cant. They have to just run their course. You can attempt to control them with medication but if they happen, the effects are going to be difficult.

 

[buddy]

I do agree with you Janet, thanks. There are those times. But he is also a kid who has thoughts and feelings and I do need to guide his behaviors which CAN be helped. I have just taken the tact that I will help him to reach HIS potential. I will work on as much as I can assuming he can develop control (and there are people who even can control their seizures through neurofeedback and relaxation etc.) of as much as possible. But all the while realizing there is a medical undercurrent and adjusting for that. It is a dance. Different music switching up all the time...lol

 

[Malika]

This is subject for debate. There really is no one right answer: as Buddy says, it is what works with a particular child.
I have to say that, in terms of my particular child, the approach Allan-Matlem is pointing to really does work best. An incident this afternoon highlighted this to me. My television is now "broken" (at least when J wants to watch it ) but I allowed him to watch an hour of things on the computer - he watched different versions of Hansel and Gretel, the story he is currently really into. Anyway, this afternoon he began saying he wanted to see Hansel and Gretel again - repeating something about wanting to watch them taking steps through the forest. It was obviously very important to him but instead of taking a collaborative approach (always more demanding), I just repeated, in a loud tone of voice that he had watched enough for that day. He wasn't actually initially being difficult or demanding in tone but in response to my categoric no, things rapidly escalated and he soon was shouting and crying and very, very worked up - he enacted hitting me (not actually hitting me), pointed a gun at me, threw a shoe in my direction. All of which made me angry and we were soon pitched in battle. He was very angry and very upset - suddenly I had a kind of glimpse or memory of me as a small child, being angry and upset (I was also a very spirited child and I can remember what it felt like not to be seen or understood by the adults around me). I too was now not listening to J. So I changed the tone, began asking him what it was he wanted to say, why he wanted to watch Hansel and Gretel and I explained why I didn't want him to watch any more. He was still upset but not angry, and I felt his relief that I was trying to hear him rather than fight him. We eventually came to the agreement - initiated by me - that we would go for our walk as planned and would play at being Hansel and Gretel in the wood (which we duly did). He was very amenable afterwards, wanted to make amends, was eager to please.
For me I guess it's about whether I want to be on J's side or whether I want him to just carry out orders, as it were. Obviously the only way to have a real relationship is through trying to meet him where he is - as he is five and the world of a five year old is not that of an adult, and I cannot vividly re-enact my own five year old self, this is not easy... It was really important to him, this business of watching Hansel going through the forest, and although that makes no sense in rational terms, it was important to him. I would have saved us all that bother and upset if I had been able to hear that in the beginning and take it seriously. I think it was the not being listened to that really sent him off at the deep end.
Like I say, this is just what works at this end... In my heart of hearts, I feel that consequences do not work with J and have no real place with us. But so many people talk about consequences that I think I should try them and lose the courage of my conviction, as it were. Really, though, that is just wasting time - because in the end, I come back to the same place.

 

[mazdamama]

Malika...just read your post and boy does he sound like my David. I have just sent his brother off to a residential center for mental health help that I could not give him. Now I will have more time with David who is developmentally delayed but also high functioning autistic. He has learned some bad habits from his big bro and I need to get those things under control while Daniel is gone.
David will tell me he wishes I was dead, calls me an imbecile, idiot, and some words that I cannot post on here. In the past few days with Daniel gone he has quieted a little bit. BUT he KNOWS when he calls me these things there is a consequence. Like some other children with a brain injury...which he has....normal punishments do not work with him. Some things...well I have been told because I was dealing with two of them against one for a very long time...to pick my battles with the boys. David does get a few pops on his butt when he does something wrong and for the mouth....when it needs some cleaning out I was told to use vinegar. All I have to do is put some on my finger and rub it on his tongue and you would think I had murdered him...lol.
Neither of these forms of punishment can cause me a problem with DCF as you can spank your child with your bare hand on his /her buttocks. As for the vinegar I was told that using hot sauce was a no no but vinegar is in many of the foods we eat and would not be abusive in nature to clean that bad mouth out.
I recall a day not to long ago when I had told David before we even went into WalMart that I had only a small amount of money and I needed to get some things but would not be buying him a toy. As soon as we got into the store he started up and I just said "NO"...well with me about 15 ft behind him he was walking down the big isle behind the registers crying his eyes out. I saw an associate stop him and assume she asked him if he had lost his mommy because what I heard from him loudly was "NO, THERE SHE IS THE BIG FAT MEANIE!!" pointing back to me.

Anyhow, those on the only two things that work with him. The pops on the butt....well he is not used to being popped on the butt and thinks his butt is bleeding when he gets one. Vinegar....all I have to do is say I am getting the bottle out and he shuts up.

 

[buddy]

That was a great example. Much like what I go through. Try, make a mistake sometimes, do better other times etc. Of course there ARE always consequences to every action. In the general sense. But in terms of a punishment consequence... yes, in so many situations it can just lead to more problems. But to never have a punishment, that would set a child up for thinking that there is no punishment in the world. It would be nice to think the method worked so well that they would never have to have a punishment but there will be traffic tickets, detentions, etc. and probably not any way to negotiate those. We talked earlier about picking those really significant things that need a punishment kind of consequence. (Q will actually be able to tell you that there are good consequences and bad consequences to what we do, lol...we have worked on this for a long time and revised over the years, lol...). I do think safety and violence need some form of restitution along with problem solving and skill building. Just MHO.


Malika, J is in good hands.

 

[Malika]

The thing is... and I know you understand this... we have an urgent need to work with/on J's inability to tolerate frustration and his intense anger at times... Today he was really, really angry, explosive, and I know that it was not just about the issue in hand. This anger will ruin his life if it is not harnessed and channelled. Getting punitive with him fuels the anger and makes the skills he needs slip ever further away. I need to model the behaviour I want him to have, which is a very big challenge for me too.
I just can't parent/discipline him like a "normal" child. Most people don't understand that, but I really don't worry about them any more. This is the road less travelled...

 

[buddy]

That is exactly right. Doesn't matter what others think at all. It is what works for him that is important. Like I said, consequences in the broad sense just happen.... good or bad.... one thing in life influences another thing. But for you, at this point in his life, getting punitive and imposing negative consequences just does not work for him. (though you have said that you raising your tone of voice has stopped things at times...is it like with Q and me???, that later he uses that same tone with you and it only then worked in the short run, but now you have a new problem??) Raising voice (thus giving the consequence of disapproval/anger) is a kind of neg. consequence in some situations. Twice in the last month when I yelled at my PHONE, Q cried! He got so upset.... just could not handle when I said ARRGGG to my phone after a frustrating conversation! It wasn't intended to affect him. It just did.

 

[Malika]

I suppose what I mean by "consequences" is some action that you impose on a child. I am in favour of "restitution", this seems to me the most promising and realistic thing that can happen after something negative has been done; to make amends in some positive way. This does not seem to me like a "punishment". Getting irritated or disapproving with a child for some undesirable behaviour wasn't what I was meaning by a consequence but I quite understand why you call it one. From that point of view then, yes, that kind of consequence is inevitable... If J throws bath water out of the bath onto the floor, I'm not going to say in a sweet and even tone "Oh darling, please don't do that!" I'm going to say something in a cross tone of voice This to me is human and normal - it means we are engaging in a real relationship, not a text-book mechanical exercise. And, yes, J has sometimes listened when I have been firmly cross...
I haven't really worked all this out into some exact science (but perhaps that much is clear ). I just see that J has a tendency to explosive anger and that, actually, so do I. What has been touching me off - though I am very much working on this now - is his verbal/physical aggressiveness. Habitually I will have an angry/punitive reaction, which locks us in an entirely negative cycle and is all about me and my reactions, not about him and his needs as a child. I am getting calmer when I deal with him, cutting off from taking his anger personally, not buying into it, as it were... This needs to happen because his anger is actually explosive and could lead somewhere dangerous one day. I do feel and know that.
I suppose what I am trying to say in this rather muddled way is that punishment is actually more about the emotional need of the adult to exact revenge in some way. Consequences would be more mature and more altruistic in my book and philosophically I have no problem with them, except that they do not work with J in the sense that trying to enforce them just leads to nightmarish meltdowns each time. Life involves consequences... he knows that already. Everyone does. I don't think that my not working that way with him will mean he doesn't understand that.

 

[mazdamama]

Malika.....my other boy is 11 and has had anger issues since about the age of 3. Children's minds soak up everything they see and hear from the time they are born. My boys are both adopted and are biological brothers. They were born to my son and his now late ex wife. She was adopted at 2 1/2 yrs old. My son married this girl before we had even met her but shortly after meeting her I realized there were problems with her. When she and my son moved from TN to FL to live with us they had been divorced for 12 wks and remarried because even with her 10 wk old son she was again pregnant. Things got worse as time went on. She attempted suicide while pregnant with David causing problems with his and he was a preemie. Daniel, she tried to drown. After we found her biological mother we found out that her father's family ALL had mental health problems. Bio Mom was diagnosis'd with Borderline Persoanlity Disorder and set herself on fire 2 yrs ago and suffered for almost 3 months before her death.

What I am trying to say here is that Daniel started with the anger at age 3 and as the years went by it got worse and he got bigger and then medication after medication was used. The one that put him over was Haldol....it had him hearing voices. He was threatening people and managed to kill two small dogs he had without meaning to. His anger came to a point where the school did not really want him there, I could not really punish him in any way although he got great consequences for good behavior. I have a torn ligament in my knee from him pushing me down and trying to choke me. He became too dangerous for David and I to be safe around him although he did not want to be like that. The tears, the feeling bad about things he did but unable to control the things was a cry for help. I did not wait too long, I think he can be healed and get the things that bother him out of his mind and deal with them. My late husband, my son (Daniel's dad) and my late father in law ALL had anger issues. Daniel inherited not only the anger, the mental illness genes but also high cholestrol.

I do not know your story well enough to know if you know the history of the bio parents of your son but I can tell you that genetics can and do have alot to do with how adopted children behave. As a grandparent that adopted I was lucky enough to be able to find out medical and mental histories.

 

[buddy]

totally agree. Was just checking to see if you were trying to go to that kind of extreme...but I suspected not. Yeah, I get into that same not effective pattern sometimes too...just doesn't pay off. and yes, guilty mom speaking here...there are times when it was just because it made me feel better to say ok then no ....whatever.... for a month! Well, that just makes me have to back out and teaches nothing...

I suppose what I mean by "consequences" is some action that you impose on a child. I am in favour of "restitution", this seems to me the most promising and realistic thing that can happen after something negative has been done; to make amends in some positive way. This does not seem to me like a "punishment". Getting irritated or disapproving with a child for some undesirable behaviour wasn't what I was meaning by a consequence but I quite understand why you call it one. From that point of view then, yes, that kind of consequence is inevitable... If J throws bath water out of the bath onto the floor, I'm not going to say in a sweet and even tone "Oh darling, please don't do that!" I'm going to say something in a cross tone of voice This to me is human and normal - it means we are engaging in a real relationship, not a text-book mechanical exercise. And, yes, J has sometimes listened when I have been firmly cross...
I haven't really worked all this out into some exact science (but perhaps that much is clear ). I just see that J has a tendency to explosive anger and that, actually, so do I. What has been touching me off - though I am very much working on this now - is his verbal/physical aggressiveness. Habitually I will have an angry/punitive reaction, which locks us in an entirely negative cycle and is all about me and my reactions, not about him and his needs as a child. I am getting calmer when I deal with him, cutting off from taking his anger personally, not buying into it, as it were... This needs to happen because his anger is actually explosive and could lead somewhere dangerous one day. I do feel and know that.
I suppose what I am trying to say in this rather muddled way is that punishment is actually more about the emotional need of the adult to exact revenge in some way. Consequences would be more mature and more altruistic in my book and philosophically I have no problem with them, except that they do not work with J in the sense that trying to enforce them just leads to nightmarish meltdowns each time. Life involves consequences... he knows that already. Everyone does. I don't think that my not working that way with him will mean he doesn't understand that.

 

[Steely]

You are trying to find what feels like the "right" way to parent him, and you are also grappling with what others feel like is the "correct" way. As you know, you do have to just go with your gut - and you are doing that. It will take some time, but you will sink into what feels right, what works, etc. Only you know him the best, and what will motivate him, and what will un-motivate him.

You might go back and re-read this whole thread, and jot down the ideas you like, and keep them in a journal as you go forward. He is only 5, so you have lots of time to experiment with what works best with him. As you said, I think restitution was more my approach - and it worked for matt. Time outs, taking things away, and other punitive measures did not work. Each difficult child is uniquely their own - and I am so glad for every parent that takes the time to realize that, and then capitalize on their knowledge in order to truly help their child.

 

[InsaneCdn]

If J throws bath water out of the bath onto the floor, I'm not going to say in a sweet and even tone "Oh darling, please don't do that!" I'm going to say something in a cross tone of voice This to me is human and normal -

Maybe the 5th or 10th time he did it... but really? this is worth getting cross for?
K1 did it a couple times - until I started lining the bath floor with a triple-layer of heavy flannel sheets... which contained the mess, which made it "no more fun"... self-extinguishing without the "getting cross".

Not that I always find those answers, either. Just ask K2. She's mad at me tonite - because she thinks I got mad at her first. (in the middle of a complicated on-line tx that had to be completed right then, I got a constant barrage of questions from across the room... one interruption too many...)

 

[Malika]

Maybe the 5th or 10th time he did it... but really? this is worth getting cross for?
QUOTE]

Well, yes... the water makes a great deluge on the floor which I have to mop up (after he has done a token clearing up). Water should stay in the bath!
You are more saintly than I am

 

[mazdamama]

She is more saintly then me too....lol Although my boys have issues I will not always be here to fix things for them. My David is a SLOB...does not think he needs to pick up his legos or even his atlases from where he was using them. He will then ask for something special...nope, not until you clean up your mess...weird that he will go without the special thing to avoid cleaning up.
As for bath water on the floor and even urine from not aiming right....I wash alot of towels because both boys have to clean up the floor in the bathroom after themselves. David was smearing toothpaste all over the sink counter. After him having to clean it a few times he stopped doing it.
Right now he would like to play the Wii they got for Christmas and has been asking for three days now. He has chosen not to clean up the legos all over the floor so sorry....no Wii.

Back to school for him tomorrow and with Daniel in Jacksonville Mom will get this place in order. Minimal legos out to play with...all the rest will be locked up in the shed. Some may even get sold on Ebay.