I think I may have lost my son today

[Copabanana]

Look. Every teen. And almost all people. Have to follow rules somewhere. That is what it is to live in society.

Of course. There are people like my own son who do not want to do what it takes to conform. And they either have mothers like me, that keep taking them back, forestalling learning, or they live on the street. Until they change their minds and conform to the extent they can live like socialized people.

There is no other way.

Your son is hard headed. But this is necessary learning. He cannot be spared it.

I wish you would direct the empathy and compassion to yourself first.

Your son is putting you in a terrible position by his insistence he live by his own rules.

He is insisting he live by his own rules, when legally, emotionally and otherwise he lacks the means to support independence. While this is all too common, I have no patience with him. It smacks of entitlement and privilege. As with my own son. we are not people you and I that sought to instill those qualities in our sons.

My own frustration is bleeding into your thread. I am getting sick of my son's selfishness. He is more than a decade older than yours. My heart for him has been a minus rather than plus.

I feel affection for your son and caring but no indulgence.

 

[Baggy Bags]

My mom is only a temporary option because she is emotionally unstable. I'm pretty sure she is bipolar, but refuses to get diagnosed. That said, if we find no other options, I might have to let him stay with her. I might have to just let go and let them figure out life with their disorders, together. There is no one else in the house with them. The doctors are so frickin sure that he won't do anything to her, AND they are saying that I shouldn't be associating the mj with his violent behavior, even though it was in his system the 3 times he cracked hub's head open, and he has never been that violent when it wasn't in his system. It's soooo frustrating. It seems so obvious to us. But they want to convince us that it's the family dynamic, the place where we live, homeschooling, our unconventional lifestyle, and his "conduct disorder". And it might well be a lot to do with all of that (even though he was a happy child in the same environment and lifestyle we have now), but there is definitely a relation between the violence and the smoking. When I insist, they say things like "don't ask for our opinions if you're not going to take them". I'm trying to have a conversation, together, to figure out what is best for my son and what is really going on with him.

No, we definitely are not people who instill these qualities in our sons. We gave them all the love, all the support, all the chances, all the education...

For now, my mom is going to try to get him to start going to a gym near her house. She says she's going to go with him, but that won't last. She's a smoker and a procrastinator. I give it a week before she starts letting him go on his own. We will see what happens then.

 

[Baggy Bags]

The two shrinks, one man, one woman, are both at about 10 years of experience. One is the only childhood-adolescent specialist in the country, the other is director of mental health in a national hospital and very respected. The psychologist has 40 years of experience and is on the same page as me with everything. If it were up to me, we would only be working with him.

Thank you, Copa. You are so generous. I've talked to other shrinks and they recommend these two :/

Definitely will be doing drug tests while he's there. And I think that yes, my mom wants the project, it's part of what she does. If anyone is sick in the family, it's suddenly entirely her job to take care of them. I'm an only child, so maybe it's also another chance to try her hand at parenting, which she wasn't spectacular at with me.

He just finished a session with the psychologist, who works in the city during the week. I'll be seeing him on the weekend, so hopefully some light will be shed then as to what is going through my boy's head right now. Apparently, in the car on the way to my mom's, he said "Check Mate" to my husband. This was in reference to something he said earlier in the week - "life is like a game of chess, I just have to see how get mama in check mate".

 

[Copabanana]

Or it could be that your son is going through an obnoxious jerk phase which he works thru as he matures. Hopefully next week.

PS.i think your mother did a marvelous job with you.

 

[Baggy Bags]

As the days go by, (only three, but eternal) I've had several back and forths with the doctors, and the more I do, the more I realize that I feel so much more supported here with people who actually live through this. It's like another dimension. Thank you for the support and advice.

 

[Copabanana]

Bag. How is your mom doing? How is son? How are you? How is hubs?

 

[Baggy Bags]

Hey, Copa <3
Psychologist had an appointment with our son yesterday and we see him tomorrow, so he'll be able to fill us in on where is head is at. So, anxiously waiting for tomorrow. Mom sounds fine. She's keeping him busy with yardwork is pretty much all I know. They're both trying real hard to prove that they can do this. We'll see how long it lasts. Thanks for checking up on us xx

 

[wisernow]

Thinking of you Baggy Bags. I know this is really hard stuff but standing your ground to not allowing someone who is violent in your home shows respect for yourself and also shows him that you mean business. He needs to face the natural consequences of his actions. Again these are his choices. As a doctor said to me regarding our son, mental illness nor addiction gives the right of another to exhibit bad behavior. Stay strong. This and any recovery he chooses to partake in is on him not on you. Hugs!

 

[Baggy Bags]

Went to the appointment. Psychologist say both my son and my mom. Mom (who is undiagnosed, but likely bipolar) is saying that she and my son are fine, and that I'm the crazy one. He's especially worried that she said that my son doesn't need the medication he's on. There was also talk of legally trying to get custody. I'll be demanding a full psychiatric evaluation if that's the case.

 

[Copabanana]

Laughing out loud. Until I read the rest of the post.

Whaaaaat?

Am I understanding this correctly?

Mother says she sees no reason for son to take medication.

Says you are the crazy one.

And your mother wants to try to get full custody?

______

This is too upsetting for me to wrap my mind around. The part that your mother could betray you, if I am understanding correctly. That she could even contemplate legal action to disempower you as a parent. Instead of supporting you, assisting you, collaborating with you.

Am I misinterpreting this? I mean, what would be the need for, purpose of this? Can she not see how aggressive this is?

____

In the USA a child the age of your son can give input as to which parent she wants to live with. But a grandparent has no legal standing.

 

[Copabanana]

Continued.

Look. If I consider this another way, there would be a silver lining to this.

The current situation in your home has been difficult if not dangerous for you and Hubs.

The shrinks treatment plan could be mandated as conditions. That is medication, therapy, drug testing. In your mom's care.

The idea of legal custody is ludicrous. But you could lean into the idea that she wants to take responsibility.

Son will tire of this soon. When the win wears off. This gives you power. He will have to change and earn his return.

 

[Baggy Bags]

Yes, she's *that* nuts.

That's what the doctors are saying - let it naturally play out and fail.

But yeah, this is what I'm dealing with. Feeling very betrayed, but not that surprised, after all, it's her and she's always been this way.

 

[Copabanana]

Honestly. You do not deserve any of this. Not one iota.

Try. Very hard. To let this be.

This is not about you. No matter how much our kids (and mothers, it seems) try to make it so.

I am sorry this is so so hard.

 

[Littleboylost]

Sending a big hug. Just catching up. All I can add is Uggggg!

 

[Baggy Bags]

Update -
Son is still with my mom. He saw one of the psychiatrist today who then told me that he says he refuses to come back and that if I try to make him, he'll report us for abuse - specifically that we don't feed him (he's overweight, visibly well-fed) and that my husband attacked and cut him. I'm at my limit. I'm thinking to get a lawyer and take him to court for slander.

Has anyone here had this kind of experience? We have a message from the doctor the day he attacked us, telling us we were in danger. We have a witness who saw my son with the knife in his hand. We have pictures of the cuts and bruises we got from him that day. And we have the fact that after months of therapy with three different professionals, not one of them ever recommended that my son be removed from the home, in other words, they never saw any signs of abuse. I don't know what to do. I don't want to spend time in court or money on a lawyer, but I figure that if that's where this is going to end up, it's better that we report it before he does.

I'm so frickin angry. His butt would be in jail right now if it weren't for me begging the police not to take him, and this is how he repays me.

 

[BusynMember]

Look, you tried to help him. I don't know the laws in your country but here if the police saw his abuse against you there would be a record of it and your son would have no case.

I wouldn't panic unless your laws are totally different than ours. And maybe next time let the police take him...although maybe he won't go home and give this scenario a chance to play out.

 

[Copabanana]

I have been wondering how you are....

Some thoughts (borrowed):

There's nothing fair in love and war.

Lean in.

Nothing good goes unpunished.

It's not over til it's over.

Pick your battles.

____

Me:

As I have read your posts I have come to believe you have been motivated by and governed by:

Providing your son with the best treatment you can, so that he matures to be a functional, content and decent person.

Supporting his functional prosocial behavior.

Keep him safe and contained, so that his current impulsive, self destructive, aggressive, self defeating behavior is contained.

_____

I have seen nothing that makes me think you are engaged in a war, or seek control. While you have suffered greatly, I have admired the extent you have been able to keep your eyes on the ball, and your own needs out of this. To the contrary. You have been guided by love and responsibility.

____

That said. of course we get triggered. Of course this gets personal (To whit, yesterday I called my son evil, repeatedly, screaming like a deranged person.)

Please strike that last image from your minds So that I can proceed in a professional demeanor. Thank you.

____

Most of our kids have acted from this playbook. While we react, the important thing is to regain your composure and perspective. See above.

To repeat:

Long game.
Keep safe.
Get him treatment.
Keep your sanity. And better. Your life. Your beautiful life

____
You do not ask for my advise but I will give it. I would try not to engage. I would stay focused on my plan and priorities and not be distracted by his. To engage with him is to give him power. In reality he has none. You do. He is a little gnat. Don't make him king Kong.

___

There is documentation of murderous behavior by him if not intent.

You are known intimately by hundreds of people.

Three professionals have been overseeing your family life

End of story.

PS my son last night week told the police we were abusing him. He is 29 and 6'2". M is 5'5". Me, close to that. And old. Give me a break. Many, many times he called the cops on us to put us in jail. Give me a break.

We are playing the long game. Why? Because we are their parents.

I am sorry this is happening. Be kind to yourself.

 

[Copabanana]

I forgot my summary statement.

He remains safe. Contained. In treatment. What do you lose by giving him rope? It was not working before, based upon his new burst of violence toward you.

You have no control here except over your own Intentions. Nor do i with my own situation. I am playing a game where I can only respond. Not one term can I impose. That is the game we are in.

 

[BloodiedButUnbowed]

I am so sorry BB. What a slap in the face from both your son and your mom.

In one sense, you have succeeded in your original aim to keep your son out of the criminal justice system. He is now with your mom and he is not in danger from inmates, etc. This was your primary concern and you achieved this goal. Perhaps now is the time to let it and him go.

In your country, are you and husband considered his legal guardians even though he isn't living with you and refuses to return? If this is the case can you switch his guardianship to your mother, so that you and husband can't be held legally accountable for whatever son may do next?

The other option, if it is available, is to go ahead and allow the police to take him away and charge him for his assault against you and husband. He IS still your child regardless of his big talk. In the US it is possible to press charges for certain crimes after the fact, although there are statutes of limitations.

Again, so sorry.

 

[Copabanana]

I agree with bbu. But am somewhat frightenned by the option to report his assault. Would a police report necessitate he be charged?

My instinct would be to proceed strategically. Principles of martial arts. Let your opponent's force and momentum carry him to the place where you have strategic control according to your goals.

To me you have consistently sought to protect him from great harm. That has been a central goal.

But at the same time, he wants to dominate the situation. And now he wants to dominate the situation in a way that is very abusive.

That is why I take seriously what bbu writes.

What I would not do is what you have proposed: that is, defend yourselves against son's lies. That would only empower him. And disempower you. You would be fighting having tied both hands behind your back, having gagged and blindfolded yourself. And you would be fighting lies which you yourself have fueled by your desire to shield him from himself. Defending yourself against lies, because you are afraid to tell the truth. How much longer can you disempower yourself while he hurts you,?

In my view, the true and correct option, should you choose to respond proactively, would be to report him as the perpetrator. Because he is continuing down this path. But I would be afraid, as I said.

So I see you with two options the above. And the one I would likely take, ignore him. And keep him away from you and your house. He is dangerous. You matter as much or more than him right now. He has help and support. All of which you arranged and provided for him.

My concern would be this. Where will this stop? He knows you are afraid to tell the truth to the police. How much more will he try to extort? That is why I think bbu's idea about giving physical custody to your mother for a limited time, legally, makes sense.

It makes sense because it may diffuse the power he feels over you. You would not be caving, you would be yielding to get out of the way, to diffuse his power and consolidate and harness your own.

This protects you. You matter. And your husband matters.

And as importantly, you do not fight on his terrain but on your own.

I am so so sorry he is hurting you like this.