Lie after lie

[newstart]

Last Friday I busted my daughter in another lie. Years ago after she ripped me off thousands of dollars I decided to stop all payment on her college, she had to take a couple of private loans to get her degree. My name is NOT on these loans. Last week my text started to get bombarded plus my phone was ringing off the hook, the loan people were looking for her, she is 3 months late. I told them to take it up with my daughter yet they still call and text me. I asked her about the loan and she said it was a SCAM. So I confronted her with the information that I had gathered. In the past I would scream at her at the top of my lungs, for her to stop being so financially irresponsible and pay her bills. This time I took a deep breath, and calmly said to her 'You need to pay your college loan or they will come and garnish your wages at your work. Part of my calm is that my name is not on there and the other reason I was calm is that earlier I went over to my deceased friends home and her husband gave me some of her ashes and some of her belongings, I was in no mood for further nonsense.

I collected some things from my deceased friend that I thought my daughter would like and gave them to my daughter. I had some nice Valentine decorations that I gave to my daughter and when I went to the store I bought her some speciality cheese that she loves.

I thought to myself, do I feel better, stupid, or what, being lied to and then showering her with love and gifts. I felt mixed up, sad, mad, irritated, confused and what on earth am I doing. I can't help what my daughter says or does, I can only control what I do and say. Being kind and loving feels good and right to me. I think I feel better when I choose to ignore her when she is off track, it harms my soul to yell and scream at her and does no good anyway because she will do what she does. Detatching and seperating from her financially is the key, I thought that I only have the house that is tied financially with her but it seems her poor financial dealings find their way to me still.

I asked her why she did not pay her bill, she said 'Well, I have the money' and I did not say anything after that because the conversation was so stupid I could not say anything more. I guess she likes to pay late fees and I guess she likes to get harrassed, why on earth would someone wait so long to pay their bills?

The stupidness of that entire conversation had me in tears. I am just so sad. How can a person be so well educated with 2 degrees, on the high honor roll most of her life and such an idiot. How can a person that has studied finances and takes on going courses on finances be like that. I am taking a big breath and trying to let it go. If I asked myself how I feel it would be frustrated, confused, weird, and just plain deep down soul aching sad. I also feel frustrated, very frustrated that things are not running smoothly.. But now I feel better venting and knowing I can only control myself and my life.. My dear friends death and my daughters lies feels like bricks on my heart.

 

[BusynMember]

Hon, ten degrees dont make anyone either financially responsible if the person doesnt want to be responsible nor will it make your daughter care about you above her own desires.

Obviously she has a pattern of making you pay her bills and you do it. This benefits her financial situation which is what she prefers. She isnt a dummy. She wants you to pay her bills and until you stop doing so she is rhe sort of person who will sack you with everything. And not feel badly about it.

Now I do not at all blame you for her character. I believe personality is largely genetic and obviously her selfishness and lack of caring did not cime from you. Could be a grandmother or aunt. But she is not caring of the needs of others. She will do anything for HER needs. She is s Me person.

I am not sure this was your story but I believe you bought her a house, many cars AND a business. Most adults would be very grateful, may even refuse to accept all that. But your daugjter thinks you owe her this and more, like paying her loan and she believes you will. She is very selfish.

All you can do is stop being surprised when she acts like the person she is. It is what it is. If you dont want to pay her loan, dont. I wouldnt. But I am not you. Do it if you feel you must and maybe stop being shocked when she tries to stick you with more of her bills. It is who she is.

Look up Radical Acceptance. I love it!

Meanwhile take care of yourself and your loved ones who are kind to you and accept your daughter as she is. You cant change the core of her. All your kindness will not change her attitude toward others. It hasnt.

At any time you can cut off her party and shut down The Bank of Mom. You dont owe her all these monetary gifts. Just think about it thsn do what you feel you must do. Do you see a therapist?

Take care of YOU now.

Hugs, love and light!

 

[KTMom91]

Speaking from experience, the student loan people are relentless. Just because they call you doesn't mean that you're responsible. It means that she needed three references on the application, and your name is on there. Try telling them you don't know exactly where she is, and to stop calling you.

 

[newstart]

SWOT, Bank of Mom has been shut down for a while. I did not buy her her business, she opened a spa and then refused to pay me rent leaving me with the morgage payment, I would have never bought the spa business. My name is on her cars but she has been making the payments and back payments and is almost done.
I will not continue paying any of her bills and if the college loan people garnish her wages, good for them. She knows that if she does not make her house note she is out this time for sure. We sat down with her and boyfriend and told them what will be happening. We told them we are not going into 2019 constantly watching ourselves from getting ripped off. They both are crystal clear on that. We listed all the money she owes us on a spread sheet and the payments start March 1. The back rent and the missed car payments will be repaid and she is held accountable for that, either way we will get our money back when we sell the home, we know what she is like so we set things up so we were certain to get our money back. We have had to stay ahead of her from getting ripped off, she knows we are on to her. It feels sad deep in my heart to think I have to protect myself from my own daughter. There is no real relationship where there is not real trust. I can't do superficial relationships they are just too draining for me, I try so hard to make this one work and it is so much work.

KTMOM91, Yes the loan people are relentless. We told our daughter that we would help her through college when she started, we found out she was ripping us off and stopped all payments. She only had a year and 1/2 left and had to take her own loans in her own name. All of her college would have been paid for had she not tried to rip us off. It hurts my stomach to even type that. She has caused so much grief on a regular basis, even when I disconnect from her completely people are still calling me telling me about her bad choices.

It is heartbreaking to look at my daughter. She is unbathed and manic. She talks nonstop about politics because she is the expert and has deep inside information from the hightest level. She posts political stuff constantly and somethings I do not think would be good for her career if her boss would see. I love her with my entire heart and soul, I cannot stand her.

 

[BusynMember]

It sounds as if you have thiings under control. You are doing all you can including giving her your unconditional love. I believe I remember you are married??? If so can you take some of that love and enjoy your marriage as if if is new? My husband and I are thinking of renewing our vows and next year we plan to travel in the winter. Lots of things you can do to make your life fun again!

Not everyone can get pleasure from their grown kids. You are not alone in this, not that this helps. I know it hurts. I am sorry. I rember you also had a son. Very sad.

I wish you a lovely day of peace and to do something nice for yourself.

Hugs love and light!

 

[Triedntrue]

I understand what you feel. If i give my son something it is now because i choose to and it is nothing big. No rent, nothing to do with a vehicle , no more court costs. Been there and done all that but no more. I bought him a coffee pot because i felt like it. Does he try you bet ( just called and asked for 300 dollars) i said no i didn't have it. Just till next tuesday or wed which i know would not happen. Sorry no can do. I know there are things that will catch up to him financially and i worry but i worry about me and my husband as well.

 

[Tanya M]

I don't think intelligence has anything to do with being financially responsible. My son has an extremely high IQ, border line genius and he is so irresponsible with money. I have been a follower of Dave Ramsey for 20 years and I live my life debt free. I have tried so many times to get my son to apply Dave's teachings to his own life and he just won't do it. When he has money he has to spend it, the concept of saving is just lost on him. He's currently living in a half way house finishing up his parole. He was working but quit the job because he feels he should be getting paid $25.00 an hour not $12.00. He also told me that he spent $300.00 on a guitar. He is supposed to be paying rent at the half way house. His problem, not mine.
You can be a highly educated person but that does not always equate to having common sense.

 

[Triedntrue]

My son is the same very smart not genius but can not handle money at all. He goes into Lowes or home depot for a 30 dollar kit to install a water line and spends 100 while being behind on the rent. I think he needs a payee but don't think he will accept that.

 

[newstart]

I don't think intelligence has anything to do with being financially responsible. My son has an extremely high IQ, border line genius and he is so irresponsible with money. I have been a follower of Dave Ramsey for 20 years and I live my life debt free. I have tried so many times to get my son to apply Dave's teachings to his own life and he just won't do it. When he has money he has to spend it, the concept of saving is just lost on him. He's currently living in a half way house finishing up his parole. He was working but quit the job because he feels he should be getting paid $25.00 an hour not $12.00. He also told me that he spent $300.00 on a guitar. He is supposed to be paying rent at the half way house. His problem, not mine.
You can be a highly educated person but that does not always equate to having common sense.

Hi Tanya M, My daughter has taken the Dave Ramsey courses, has studied all the books etc. She talked about it nonstop, I thought good maybe she will use her knowledge, but I do not see it so far. For now she is working full time and running her spa business on the side. She is making decent money yet continues to live paycheck to paycheck. I understand about being a highly educated person with no common sense but my daughter has years of education in finances, it is just so weird to study so hard about checks and balances and be in constant ruins financially.. My husband and I live below our means. Most couples divorce over financial problems, I never wanted that stress and I never did understand the greed to keep gathering a bunch of material stuff. I watched my son at age 10 make good financial decisions with his allowance, I thought my daughter would grow out of just not knowing how to balance her finances. She will have to figure it out. I told her to never use my name on any of her financial dealings. Also she still gets mail sent here after I asked her many times to get mail sent to her own home. I sometimes think that she knows how obnoxious her behavior is that one of these days we will not have anything to do with her and getting her mail will give her an excuse to come over.

I hope that $300 dollar guitar your son bought will make some money for him.

 

[BusynMember]

Newstart, what we k ow intellectually does not always work its way i to our real lives, sadly.

Years ago before technoligy, I worked for a medical answering service and we got to know a lot about our doctor's personal lives.

It was often astounding.

Our most popular and busiest psychology group was a MESS of dysfunction. The senior Psycholigist left his wife of thirty years for a very young collegue, also in the group, and his wife called us constantly to leave a message for him which was usually "Eff you!"

On top of that we had to tell him his wife called, although not the message, but he acted no saner than an average Joe going through his own divorce and vented about her to us in most colorful language. You'd have thought with his training he would have said "Thank you. Anything else?" Nope. And his job is to help unstable people.

On top of that another collegue of his acted very unprofessionally and told us he was tired of Dr. B's wife showing up at the office and causing scenes and also he told us Dr. B. and girlfriend were always high on cocaine.

They did not learn this in school.

A Psychiatrist, unrelated to these psychologists, and our busiest one, did not tell us anything inappropriate but a nurse who worked at the nearest psychiatric hospital (we talked to and got friendly with hospital petsonnel too) told us that this esteemed doctor's daughter was in and out with severe anorexia and that his son had been in the hospital for over a year although she didnt say why.

Should the Psychiatrist who finished medical school have able to learn how to raise stable kids and apply what he knew to his family?

I think facts are facts and that your personality takes over the facts. We all learn things that we cant always do. Your daughter knows all about finances. In the end she wants her stuff and she wants it sometimes before she can afford it. So her wants take over her knowledge. She isnt alone.

Dave Ramsey works for you because you want what he espouses. Debt is not something you want to deal with so you adjust your life not to have it.

But if you didnt really care if you had debt, he could talk in your ear all day and you still wouldnt do it. People do what they want. Some are more pragmatic than others.

Greed is very much an American trait. Many people would be horrified to have rented and not owned, like we often did. Many pay a mortgage for a fancy car. My head asks WHY????

We are all different.

 

[Copabanana]

Try telling them you don't know exactly where she is, and to stop calling you.

And then block their number.

 

[newstart]

Thank you all for the great suggestions and ideas. I know that I cannot control anything my daughter does, I know this deep down in my soul, it is just so frustrating to watch someone live their life so scattered. It is actually painful. The college loan people have quit calling me so I hope that means she has taken care of business..

The good thing about detatching more is that my daughters roller coaster ride is not so steep, it is more like a smaller roller coaster ride, where I get off quickly.

 

[Nomad]

We have friends that I have mentioned here who were and likely still are jealous of us and it ticks me off. Why? Because they are in financial trouble and we are ok. Ugh. Silly and annoying. It boggles the mind because he has a degree in Finance and worked in that field. WTH? Very long story, but they have been given many expensive things (key word...given) and have also been the recipient of Low interest or possibly interest free loans. WTH? And no special needs kids etc. to burden them and cause havoc.
Ever read “The Millionaire Next Door?” Super interesting. About how it’s not uncommon for doctors etc to be up to their eyeballs in debt.
I actually know teachers who are millionaires. So much depends on attitude, spending habits, self discipline, gratitude, values and not looking over your shoulder comparing yourself to others.

I too find lying VERY tough to cope with and often simply won’t. Detachment is key. You need and deserve to be happy.

 

[newstart]

We have friends that I have mentioned here who were and likely still are jealous of us and it ticks me off. Why? Because they are in financial trouble and we are ok. Ugh. Silly and annoying. It boggles the mind because he has a degree in Finance and worked in that field. WTH? Very long story, but they have been given many expensive things (key word...given) and have also been the recipient of Low interest or possibly interest free loans. WTH? And no special needs kids etc. to burden them and cause havoc.
Ever read “The Millionaire Next Door?” Super interesting. About how it’s not uncommon for doctors etc to be up to their eyeballs in debt.
I actually know teachers who are millionaires. So much depends on attitude, spending habits, self discipline, gratitude, values and not looking over your shoulder comparing yourself to others.

I too find lying VERY tough to cope with and often simply won’t. Detachment is key. You need and deserve to be happy.

Hi Nomad, It is just so weird that people that have actual degrees in finances and can't manage their own, I would not want them to manage mine. When my daughter was a young teen she would babysit for a couple that were Doctors, both highly respected in their field, and several times their checks would bounce. I know they lived way above their means. I have 2 close girlfriends, one a school bus driver that has managed to save a lot of money, pays all her bills on time, the other a civil engineer that is flat broke all the time. I declutter my life on a regular basis, less is truly more. I am grateful that I never felt the need to complete with anyone or the need to gather a bunch of stuff. I have never had a bill collector call me, NEVER and I have that call on a weekly basis with my daughter even when my name is not on her forms. That lifestyle would be too stressful for me, maybe if my daughter would take care of her business she would not have the TMJ or other weird health issues that are related to stress.
I will try to read the millionaire next door.
I remind my daughter that her dad and I got where we are from making wise financial decisions and mindful purchases. I see how wasteful my daughter is with things, she had a very nice bedroom set, she decided it was too heavy looking and dark so she gave it away, if it were me and I would have painted the set. My dad was raised during the depression and I learned a lot from him.

 

[Elsi]

Newstart, I know what you mean. I really think the problem for some is not knowledge but impulse control. They may know better, but they can’t say no to a want in the moment. My ex was like this. He was smart enough to know better, but money slipped through his fingers. He had to have what he wanted right now. It was like tomorrow was never going to come, or he had some weird faith that it would take care of omehow. It really was the exact same problem that led to his anger control problems and everything else. Poor impulse control was the root of all of it.

He hasn’t changed. The kids tell me he cashed in his government pension, given the opportunity - the city was restructuring pension funds and gave people the opportunity to roll theirs over into a private fund or keep the defined benefit pension plan they were grandfathered into. It would have guaranteed him his last year’s income for life. Instead he rolled it over and then cashed it out, taking the huge tax penalty, to pay off debts from who knows what. So now he has nothing - not even social security, since he was on an exempt government pension plan. He’s in his early 60s. I have no idea what he’s going to live on for the rest of hi life, and am very glad it’s no longer my problem.

He’s not a stupid man. He’s quite smart and very well read. He just simply lacks the ability to think about tomorrow instead of today.

Unfortunately, two of his children seem to have inherited this trait.

I don’t understand it either. I hate to owe money. I don’t need a lot of stuff. I just want the security of knowing what is mine is mine and I am able to take care of myself.

 

[newstart]

Newstart, I know what you mean. I really think the problem for some is not knowledge but impulse control. They may know better, but they can’t say no to a want in the moment. My ex was like this. He was smart enough to know better, but money slipped through his fingers. He had to have what he wanted right now. It was like tomorrow was never going to come, or he had some weird faith that it would take care of omehow. It really was the exact same problem that led to his anger control problems and everything else. Poor impulse control was the root of all of it.

He hasn’t changed. The kids tell me he cashed in his government pension, given the opportunity - the city was restructuring pension funds and gave people the opportunity to roll theirs over into a private fund or keep the defined benefit pension plan they were grandfathered into. It would have guaranteed him his last year’s income for life. Instead he rolled it over and then cashed it out, taking the huge tax penalty, to pay off debts from who knows what. So now he has nothing - not even social security, since he was on an exempt government pension plan. He’s in his early 60s. I have no idea what he’s going to live on for the rest of hi life, and am very glad it’s no longer my problem.

He’s not a stupid man. He’s quite smart and very well read. He just simply lacks the ability to think about tomorrow instead of today.

Unfortunately, two of his children seem to have inherited this trait.

I don’t understand it either. I hate to owe money. I don’t need a lot of stuff. I just want the security of knowing what is mine is mine and I am able to take care of myself.

Elsi, You are right it is a major problem with impulse control. Also greed and gathering or even giving things away or buying things she can't afford for others. My daughter has a back tooth that is bothering her she has needed a root canal. How long has she been complaining about the pain? 5 years and yes she has dental insurance. When she was young I took my kids for check ups every 6 months to catch problems early. She was in the habit of this. I took her twice a year until she was 25. I know this is out of my control but she knows how important good dental health is. My daughter has the most beautiful white straight teeth, you can tell she has had great dental care most of her life, and to that I will say, if she wants unhealthy teeth, she will have to live with that. As I typed that, I am letting go with that concern too. I am laughing now because I remember how my dad used to worry about my younger brother's teeth. My brother R had the most beautiful while teeth, I loved looking at his handsome face and enjoying his beautiful smile, when his teeth started to look funky my dad bought him an electric tooth brush.. I know dad missed looking at his beautiful smile too.

Elsi, Wish your kids did not inherit your ex's traits. Darn.

 

[Elsi]

Also greed and gathering or even giving things away or buying things she can't afford for others.

YES!! My ex could be EXTREMELY "generous" - with no intention of ever paying off the debts incurred in his "generosity". He used to buy extravagant presents for me and the kids that we could not afford. I would beg him not to, and he would pout because I didn't appreciate how generous he was being. If I protested, I was the one being an ungrateful B. But I knew I was going to be the one paying the VISA bill, so how was this a "present" for me?!?! It was always stuff that was flashy and expensive but not me at all - like expensive jewelry. I don't wear jewelry. I ended up pawning it while E and I were in the DV shelter.

It ultimately cost me $30K to get out of that marriage -- credit card debts of his I took on just to get him to let me go and stop trying to claim my retirement. On top of my legal fees, of course. He remarried 6 months after the ink was dry and has spent the last 10 years running her finances into the ground. They've had a chain of evictions over the last year and are now living in a trailer on land owned by her parents.

This form of "generosity" is really just the flip side of the same impulse control problem that causes them to buy so much for themselves. While paradoxically failing to take care of the things they REALLY need - like dental care, and food, and rent. Those things take planning and foresight. Buying something fun for yourself, or for someone else, happens in the moment.

C and S both have this same mindset. Tomorrow will never come. Or something will come along that will take care of everything. C gave away his last $10 to another homeless person while he himself was homeless. Sometimes I don't know whether to admire his selflessness or try to shake some sense into him.

 

[Tanya M]

I really think the problem for some is not knowledge but impulse control. They may know better, but they can’t say no to a want in the moment.

Totally agree!! My son has always had issues with impulse control - just like his bio-father.
My son just turned 37 and I wonder what his life will be like in the years to come. My husband and I have worked hard to have what we have and I contribute generously to my 401K. I plan on retiring someday and the money I have put aside for that will not be used to support my son. I feel bad for him but I am not responsible for his poor life choices.

 

[newstart]

One of the things I tell my husband on a regular basis is 'I am so glad you are not like our daughter' then my husband says, Where did she get her habits from? My husband does not study disorders like I do so he has very little patience with it, and I study disorders all the time and my patience are running thin too.

I know my daughter makes a list, I have seen her lists. So why on earth does she not follow her own list?

Tanya M, My daughter will be 37 soon. I keep thinking it is only 3 years from 40.. I am letting that sink in. That is a full grown adult woman.

My heart goes to you that have had to deal with disordered male partners. My husband in our younger days was known to waste money. I told him I simply could not tolerate it and I would file for divorce if he continued, it was that awful to me.

 

[Tanya M]

Tanya M, My daughter will be 37 soon. I keep thinking it is only 3 years from 40.. I am letting that sink in. That is a full grown adult woman.

I'm with you! It boggles my mind that my son is just a few years away from being 40. When I was 40 I left a job of 20 years to move across country to my husbands home state so we could take care of his parents. It was not easy starting over but I managed to find a job and have worked the whole 16 years we have been here. My life and my sons life are polar opposites.

My heart goes to you that have had to deal with disordered male partners. My husband in our younger days was known to waste money. I told him I simply could not tolerate it and I would file for divorce if he continued, it was that awful to me.

This is where I believe nature -vs- nurture matters. My sons bio father was only in his life till he was 4 and not on a consistent basis. My son is just like him. I left him because I could not stand how irresponsible he was. At the time I was naive enough to believe him when I turned over my paychecks, that he was going to pay bills. When the bill collector showed up at our house one day and that was it for me. When I asked what happened to all the money he shrugged his shoulders and said "I don't know". He was ordered to pay child support through the courts but that never happened. You cannot garnish someone's wages when they don't work. I left him when my son was 2.
No matter how hard I tried to teach my son to be responsible, he never was. Even when he was younger we told him he could earn an allowance but had to do some household chores. He would argue and pout that he didn't feel he needed to do chores and that we should just give him money because we loved him and none of his friends had to do chores. It has always amazed me just how young someone can be when they start using manipulation tactics.