Narcissistic Personality Disorder

witzend

Well-Known Member
Thank you all for helping me to think this through. I suppose that until a doctor says so, there is no hope that I will ever know for sure. MWM, I am going to look, over those forums and see what they have to say about the various PDs. It feels as though just to know in my heart that for whatever reason 'this is who she is' is somewhat freeing. I know that there will be times that I worry about her, as any mother would. But, I am accepting that there isn't anything I can do or offer to change it.
 

Star*

call 911........call 911
Just for a thought - and asking basically - isn't there some type of reactive Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) that this could fall under? My "thought" about being a narcissist is that if she were right - she would NOT have "WASTED" HER valuable time in explaining anything to someone "in her mind" (lower) than she is. (not that you are Witz) but I've been around true narcissistists and I've rarely seen them react to the 143 text extent nor would they to prove themselves like she did. That seems more like an obsessive behavior to me. Just thinking out loud. :confused:

I know I know the DSM says they react with 'rage' - but 143 texts even at 65 wpm is OBSESSIVE....see?

I think there is something else. A co-morbid??? Could we consider high functioning - Aspie? Do you know if her IQ is high?
 

witzend

Well-Known Member
I really don't know a lot about her diagnosis's. Her dad was so busy pretending that he was the perfect father that it didn't leave any room for anything to be wrong with her. Early on, there were problems that were all my fault, but as she hadn't lived with me since she was 8 months old, he knew that legally he had to own some of the problem. Ergo, there was no problem.

I think that to her a text isn't any different than having a raging argument. You're just not there. It's tit for tat with her. It's just like a verbal argument, except that she feels that she has you trapped because you can't walk away from a text. In her mind. Of course you can walk away from it by deleting it without reading it. She would never just send 143 texts for no reason. It's her form of fighting.
 

Star*

call 911........call 911
Ah......so if you texted back something childish like

I know you are but what am I?

to each of her texts then?

(Not exactly that but something (obviously more intelligent) to that nature that would shut her down?) Know what I mean??
 

witzend

Well-Known Member
No matter what you answer she keeps going. "You're wrong" - she keeps going why she's right. "You're right" - she keeps going about why you don't mean it. "I'm sorry" - she keeps going that you're not. "Let's stop" - she keeps going that you should have stopped before. "I'm stopping now, goodbye" - you can't stop because she hasn't made her point yet. Don't say anything - she keeps going that - whatever. She just won't stop once she gets started. It's odd. The only thing that finally stopped her - and I mean beyond saying goodbye 4 times, saying I was sorry, yada yada yada - was telling her that I don't have text plan and I couldn't afford for her to keep texting me. Then it all stopped. I guess maybe she thought I would tell her dad that he needs to stop paying for her text service on her phone?
 

flutterby

Fly away!
I'm about 99.9% sure my ex has NPD - at the very least, strong characteristics. They will scream over you because they don't have any interest in what you're saying because they are the only one that is right.

I unplugged all of my phones many times after he'd call - long distance and before digital phone - 30 or more times in a row. (We were long divorced.)

Not talking to him? Ticked him off more than anything else. Cause then he couldn't tell me how right he was.

The 100+ text messages sounds about right.

Now that easy child is 18, I refuse to have anything to do with him. I actually stopped communication a few months before easy child turned 18. Ex is planning on coming up to visit easy child next month. I've already told easy child that Ex is not allowed in my house. If he has to pee, there's a Speedway and a McDonald's around the corner.

In my experience, the only way to deal with people with this disorder is to have your own boundaries. Don't expect them to follow them because they won't. But have them set out in your mind and how you'll act when those lines are crossed. For example, not allowing text messaging on your phone (doesn't sound like you use it much anyway so you could have that feature turned off maybe). Being prepared to get up and walk away from dinner at a restaurant, etc.
 

flutterby

Fly away!
No matter what you answer she keeps going. "You're wrong" - she keeps going why she's right. "You're right" - she keeps going about why you don't mean it. "I'm sorry" - she keeps going that you're not. "Let's stop" - she keeps going that you should have stopped before. "I'm stopping now, goodbye" - you can't stop because she hasn't made her point yet. Don't say anything - she keeps going that - whatever. She just won't stop once she gets started. It's odd. The only thing that finally stopped her - and I mean beyond saying goodbye 4 times, saying I was sorry, yada yada yada - was telling her that I don't have text plan and I couldn't afford for her to keep texting me. Then it all stopped. I guess maybe she thought I would tell her dad that he needs to stop paying for her text service on her phone?

The thing that only seems to work is to completely disengage. When they are ramped up, it doesn't matter what you say or what you do. So, no response. Hang up the phone. Turn it off if you have to. Eventually, they will calm down (although probably still angry that you wouldn't hear them out), but will no longer be in that irrational state of mind.
 
N

Nomad

Guest
With reference to my father, I have often wondered if it was more like a "character" flaw.

I do think that like someone said, it is some sort of combination of an inherent tendency combined with life circumstances.

For a certain period of time, I had much sympathy for him. Today, I have some sympathy for him, but much less so. I have disengaged.

The reason why, is I feel that when we become adults and our behavior causes problems with those around us, particularly close family members, it is up to us to get help.

It is sad and unfortunate that we might have suffered difficulties in our childhood that contributed to the problem, but that is not an excuse to go on causing difficulties and problems for others and this goes double for close family members.

In the case of my father, he was abusive to my mother and my self. He had horrible difficulties holding down a job. So, he opened up his own business, but never really worked more than part time and he made very little money. He saw himself as a big businessman and it was anything but this.

AND he had perfect health, while my mother and I did NOT. I made great grades in school and worked pt after school. My mother made more money than dad, but he never gave her any credit for this. She took care of me and the house...while suffering horrible abuses from him. Then she got sick and died at age 49.

Then, my father refused to pay any money to give her a proper burial, with the money that she left him (long story), but it ended up being a lot. When I got married, he didn't want much to do with me, and when I had kids, he totally cut me off. At one point when I tried to reconcile with him, he was terrified that I would expect him to buy gifts for his grandchildren. He never knew his grandchildren and this is the way he wanted it. It is sad and weird.

My biggest issue with it all, is that with all the losses, it is hard to believe that it never dawned on this person that perhaps they should get some psychological help. Even at his age, he still believes all his problems are someone else's fault...never his own. Never looks in the mirror.

A small part of the problem is that others (cousins, etc) enable him a bit. I know his mother certainly did. We actually talked about it. But she said that she learned to give in...it was easier. I just wish she didn't always do it...consistently giving in like this had to make his personality disorder more ingrained. But she was a single mother and a bit lonely and frightened. It had to be sad and painful for her.

I agree..disengage. I would pick and chose battles. Never let them abuse you in any shape or form. On occasion, tell it like it is...although they are not likely to hear you. Perhaps in time, they will; especially if they hear it coming from your mouth and a second source. If it is a young adult we are talking about and you have the resources, offer to pay for counseling or find a low cost clinic and hand them the phone number. If they are in a tirade, get away. If they are talking with- you on the phone, hang up. Texting...cancel texting for awhile and put it back later with-o their knowledge.
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
Witz, don't give up hope. It's not easy, but a personality disordered human being can change with therapy, awareness and a lot of hard work. I've changed so much t hat when I read the criteria for Borderline (BPD) I winced and thought, "OMG, I have that, but I'm soooooooooooooooooo much better now." I'm not hard to live with at all anymore. The only time I can be a bit trying is when something completely stresses me, but I'm control enough to call my therapist for help and ask for an appointment. rather than create drama and chaos. Of course, if a personality disordered person refuses to see it or refuses help or has zilch insight, there will be no improvement. I have always tried very hard to better myself. CBT and DBT are terrific for us.

As for the constant texting, that sounds like borderline to me. Borderline really is, to be more descriptive, "emotional dysregulation disorder" and it is very hard for a borderline to reign that in once it gets going. Once you lock into anger, you get stuck there, thus all the texting (sheesh, I could see myself doing that in my 20's). It's to get a response and the more you don't respond the angrier the person gets, but I agree not to respond. That would be like pouring oil on the fire. What people who caught me in a "borderline moment" could have done best was to make it impossible for me to get in touch with them temporarily. When I had no choice but to calm down, that's when I did calm down.

Never give up hope for your kids. Offer them "ideas" about how they may get help controlling themselves better. They may cuss you out, but they also may think about it and get help. Even the drama queen gets tired of the drama, but some don't know how to live peaceful lives. I"m so grateful I am living the most boring life in the world now and that I no longer act out in silly, obsessive ways.

One day your kid may also think, boring is beautiful!!
 

witzend

Well-Known Member
Thanks, all. I agree that the change that I can control will be my own. I have it logically in my head here, I just need to follow it in my heart that she isn't going to be changing until she wants to.

MWM, I really think that the number of texts has nothing to do with it. It's the technology that she has available to her and that she is most comfortable with. 30 years ago she would have called or come to the house. Now it's easier to text, plus it makes her feel superior because she can text that quickly. None of the other major descriptors in Borderline (BPD) match her. There is no self-harm, no suicidal tendancies, and no transient relationships, no paranoia, no dissociative states, no unstable self-image. When I first had my "lightbulb moment" last week about her, I thought Borderline (BPD) too but when I looked it up it was really not anything like her. I still felt PD, and narcissistic is there to a T. Some things she is a little like, some things she is a lot like. I don't think that the fact that she is texting negates everything else. If I had said "comes to my house and won't stop arguing" or "calls and won't stop arguing" it would still fit NPD more than Borderline (BPD).
 

BusynMember

Well-Known Member
Witz, you're an old warrior mom and I trust your instincts about your child. ANYBODY with a personality disorder has the same option to change. However narcissists are far more apt to poo-poo that there is anything wrong with them, unfortunately. And they tend to enjoy "one-upping" the therapist.

I was told, when I asked (and I don't know if my particular therapist is correct or not) that if you have one personality disorder you usually have a combination of many. One is most prominent.

Look, I don't feel I have to give someone like you advice...lol. I just wish you well. I do think that tuning out when these very difficult people get out of control is the only way to subdue them. I've had to do that myself as my entire family is filled with mental illness and, now that I'm aware of them, personality disorders.

You take care of yourself.
 

witzend

Well-Known Member
Yes, it does seem to me that there is a certain amount of co-morbidity in the PDs. It reminds me of when they were trying to diagnose my mom with Lupus. They could only give the diagnosis if she had a percentage of the symptoms. I suppose it's a bit like the Autism scale. At least, that's how it makes sense to me. When I look at it, L has most of the NPD symptoms and a few of the Borderline (BPD). Some of them seem to overlap.
 
N

Nomad

Guest
Witz...
That makes sooo much sense to me.
Surely, they overlap....and you are sensing one more than another.
Only a doctor or licensed mental health professional can make an absolute positiver determination, but after years of exp. with- your child, you know where her tendencies are.
Don't let it discourage you into believing that it will be this way forever.
However, let it 'educate' you about ways in which you might protect yourself from being hurt by it.
And refuse to enable her...understanding that it is possible this could worsen the situation.
We walk a tight rope...protecting ourselves, but not enabling. It is a difficult thing to explain to "outsiders." husband and I had a similar discussion this morning.
Anyway...love your comment...
We can't really change others...we can only change ourselves.
When we don't enable, hopefully that might in some certain way help our children "get" the idea that they have to help themselves.
The right therapist might help to tip the balance even further...guiding them a long the path.
Meanwhile...like you said, the biggest control you have is your own...over yourself and your thoughts, etc.
 
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