Lil
Well-Known Member
No offense...I just thought you might have meant it on Lucy's post. If so...I didn't want her to miss it, it was very interesting.
Need some stiffening of the backbone...or open to opinions of the group
- Thread starter Echolette
- Start date
No offense...I just thought you might have meant it on Lucy's post. If so...I didn't want her to miss it, it was very interesting.
Childofmine
one day at a time
Oh Echo. First, I'm sorry for this new change in things. I don't know about you, but change is hard with our dcs. Any change.
I remember when I was relieved when he was back in jail. Are you feeling any relief? When he was in jail, I would know he had three squares, a place to sleep and wasn't able to use drugs. For me, that was good.
My son has gotten a public defender X times---multiple times---from jail. So not sure what he is talking about there. No money, nobody paying for a lawyer, they appoint one.
Right. Let the system work. You don't have to do a single thing. Your ex may take action and the courts might, but you don't have to do anything. In fact, that would be my best advice right now. Do nothing. Set boundaries about the calls. Tell him he can call ____ at ___ p.m. Whatever you think. And if you see the jail number flash up at another time, don't answer it.
I'm not sure you need to know the facts of it all right now. What does it really matter? I always assumed, and I believe rightly most of the time, that my son was doing something he should not have been doing when he got arrested. the ins and outs of it were almost irrelevant to me, in time.
Knowing him, it's highly unlikely that he caused this. Perhaps he got caught up in something and he's guilty by association. Either way, he is safe, and off the streets right now. Perhaps he will get treatment there. My son got antidepresssants in jail and actually took them.
Perhaps he will talk with his PD and negotiate for mental health treatment instead of jail time, and then he will have to do it or go back to jail.
that would be really good, I think.
I know this is upsetting, and of course, you don't know what his dad will decide to do. For you, you can breathe again. He's somewhere. I think that is a good thing.
how are YOU today? I hope you can go for a good long run and clear your head. Perhaps something good will happen here. Something new is happening, and there is a chance for change.
I remember when I was relieved when he was back in jail. Are you feeling any relief? When he was in jail, I would know he had three squares, a place to sleep and wasn't able to use drugs. For me, that was good.
My son has gotten a public defender X times---multiple times---from jail. So not sure what he is talking about there. No money, nobody paying for a lawyer, they appoint one.
Right. Let the system work. You don't have to do a single thing. Your ex may take action and the courts might, but you don't have to do anything. In fact, that would be my best advice right now. Do nothing. Set boundaries about the calls. Tell him he can call ____ at ___ p.m. Whatever you think. And if you see the jail number flash up at another time, don't answer it.
I'm not sure you need to know the facts of it all right now. What does it really matter? I always assumed, and I believe rightly most of the time, that my son was doing something he should not have been doing when he got arrested. the ins and outs of it were almost irrelevant to me, in time.
Knowing him, it's highly unlikely that he caused this. Perhaps he got caught up in something and he's guilty by association. Either way, he is safe, and off the streets right now. Perhaps he will get treatment there. My son got antidepresssants in jail and actually took them.
Perhaps he will talk with his PD and negotiate for mental health treatment instead of jail time, and then he will have to do it or go back to jail.
that would be really good, I think.
I know this is upsetting, and of course, you don't know what his dad will decide to do. For you, you can breathe again. He's somewhere. I think that is a good thing.
how are YOU today? I hope you can go for a good long run and clear your head. Perhaps something good will happen here. Something new is happening, and there is a chance for change.
Childofmine
one day at a time
I moved MWM's post to the other thread. First time!
ECHO, I am sorry, hearing our kids sobbing from jail is about the worst experience, I know how you feel, I have had that phone call too.
Everyone has given you stellar advice and support, there isn't much I can add, these choices are harrowing on us.........please remember to take care of YOU now, make sure you nurture and nourish yourself, this stuff takes a lot out of us.
We are all here for you and we will circle our wagons around you as you go through this........we are all here........holding you and sending you our love and care...........hold on ECHO......... this too shall pass.......
Everyone has given you stellar advice and support, there isn't much I can add, these choices are harrowing on us.........please remember to take care of YOU now, make sure you nurture and nourish yourself, this stuff takes a lot out of us.
We are all here for you and we will circle our wagons around you as you go through this........we are all here........holding you and sending you our love and care...........hold on ECHO......... this too shall pass.......
TerryJ2
Well-Known Member
Oh, Echo, I am so sorry.
My heart breaks for you.
I would be sobbing on or off the phone.
How heart wrenching.
Still, from what I've read, you are doing the right thing. Keep your distance. He has gotten himself into this. You know if you bail him out, he'll go right back out and do something else again.
My heart aches along with you. And with him. But that's all that I, and you can offer.
My heart breaks for you.
I would be sobbing on or off the phone.
How heart wrenching.
Still, from what I've read, you are doing the right thing. Keep your distance. He has gotten himself into this. You know if you bail him out, he'll go right back out and do something else again.
My heart aches along with you. And with him. But that's all that I, and you can offer.
BusynMember
Well-Known Member
Yes, it was for you, Lucy. It IS interesting at the difference in cultures.
The Occupy movement only lasted a while here and was more about kids getting free meals and drugs than really caring enough about anything to change it. In the U.S., the kids rarely vote. None of my kids ever have, which is alarming to me because I care so passionately about social issues and feel so strongly about voting and at least keeping up with the news. But most kids don't really know or care about the world or social issues, except for those who are the opposite of your son...those who don't believe there is global warming, those who believe a fetus is a person, etc. The Tea Party is huge. Nothing comes close.
The kids live in their own worlds and their drug habits are usually to fit in socially and for no other reason except for the common, "My life socks." Me, me, me.
The Occupy movement only lasted a while here and was more about kids getting free meals and drugs than really caring enough about anything to change it. In the U.S., the kids rarely vote. None of my kids ever have, which is alarming to me because I care so passionately about social issues and feel so strongly about voting and at least keeping up with the news. But most kids don't really know or care about the world or social issues, except for those who are the opposite of your son...those who don't believe there is global warming, those who believe a fetus is a person, etc. The Tea Party is huge. Nothing comes close.
The kids live in their own worlds and their drug habits are usually to fit in socially and for no other reason except for the common, "My life socks." Me, me, me.
Albatross
Well-Known Member
I worked late yesterday and am just getting caught up on this thread. I'm so sorry, Echo. I can't imagine much worse than hearing your adult son's sobs when you know deep inside that bailing him out (literally and figuratively) once again isn't going to help him.
The thing is, we WISH they would react with the same level of fear and remorse long before they are in situations like this. But the other things that have led them to this point don't give them pause.
So as horrible as it is to a mother's ears, maybe his sobs are a GOOD thing. He needs to not want to be like this anymore.
Maybe the fear and the remorse combined with a structured environment and some consistent medication will help him find a better way. There is hope for a new path that way.
I think it's safe to say that bailing him out would almost certainly lead to him being back under the bridge, and you would be poorer and feeling abused, and you would get the very same phone call next time.
Please do something kind for yourself today, Echo. We are all around you on this, supporting you and holding you close.
The thing is, we WISH they would react with the same level of fear and remorse long before they are in situations like this. But the other things that have led them to this point don't give them pause.
So as horrible as it is to a mother's ears, maybe his sobs are a GOOD thing. He needs to not want to be like this anymore.
Maybe the fear and the remorse combined with a structured environment and some consistent medication will help him find a better way. There is hope for a new path that way.
I think it's safe to say that bailing him out would almost certainly lead to him being back under the bridge, and you would be poorer and feeling abused, and you would get the very same phone call next time.
Please do something kind for yourself today, Echo. We are all around you on this, supporting you and holding you close.
SeekingStrength
Well-Known Member
▲▲▲▲▲
What heart-wrenching posts. I am sorry you are dealing with this and grateful you have all these wagons (including mine) circled around you.
A diagnostic stay in a mental health facility, with follow-up required sounds best to me. In my state, there are not many good places like that. In the NE state my difficult child lived in, there were several. difficult child's public defender got that for him, but she was a really liberal kinda gal - hard to describe. I kinda think it was my idea in the beginning, though and she jumped right on it. In the long run, did it help? noooo - but he had a good six months.
I'm thinking about what Albatross said above and wondering if you refusing to give into his sobs may help your son find a better way. It's all just so complicated and difficult and all you can do is do an hour at a time.
If you feel like it, I hope you visit him - after he has calmed down a bit and not trying to manipulate you into hiring an attorney.
Tight hugs. Sure thinking about you this morning,
SS
Echolette
Well-Known Member
He and I are on the same page, trying to help each other through this and stay strong.
This was the most startling and newest thought of the day to me...funny how we can hear something over and over and not hear it...people have posted about this before, but this time a light bulb went off in my head...Cedar is right!!!!! I MAY NOT KNOW HIM. (SO says to tell you thank you and he loves you, Cedar)
Yes, this is very clear to me. That was the thought I was holding foremost in my mind yestarday. The day was complicated by distressing news about one of my teen easy child's...ongoing and worsening school failure... and I felt my little life raft in the sea tipping over slowly...I thought...I can't go down on all this.
The sad thing is I used to throw myself into drink, or running, or my SO's arms...and I no longer feel like running in that way is the thing that is needed. I didn't think it would help. Which left me standing, empty handed, arms open, palms forward. (alright, SO's hug was nice). Just..waiting. Experiencing. Wondering if I would drown. Putting one foot in front of the other.
Lucy, my mom, who was of english descent and cherished those traditions, ALWAYS said that...and she was right. I am surprisingly better this morning. I made dinner for the kids last night...the process of chopping and mixing and spreading and baking took an hour, and that helped. My daughter came home from college (she is in school 2000 miles away) for a week...I picked her up at the airport, and had a light late dinner with her..and that helped. This morning I walked my dogs and nuzzled my cat...and that helped.
And the posts helped. Especially Cedar's comment about not knowing him..that stopped me in my spinning tracks.
Also the fact that my younger son's new therapist sent him home with a vial of some homeopathic drops to put in water...that seemed so funny it also cheered me up.
MWM, I've heard you say this before. My Difficult Child was part of Occupy, and I have to ay that the core group was really devoted, and smart, and had some surprising people including doctors and lawyers in the mix. They reminded me sometimes of the cute young intense guys in Les Miserables. So it wasn't all as you imagine. All revolutions start with a motley group of scufflers. YOu never know where some resistance will lead.
Yes. There is something that makes me feel horrible trapped, tied down, paralyzed about that combination. My mind keeps doing what I do, which is reaching for a solution, and all reaches come back empty...no bail. He will just run. Maybe pay for a better lawyer? but we don't want him out. We want him to feel cared for, not abandoned, AND TO PAY HIS DUES. Nothing I can do will change that.
I suppose there is the possibility that no one will actually come forward to press charges and all will be moot...drunks on St. Patricks Day, who knows? I may be stealing myself against...nothing.
I am so very very grateful for that. That and making turkey pot pie got me through the night.
I will. Not soon. My ex (his dad) will too. When we are able. For now I'll accept his calls, once or twice a day, not more, and soon to be left.
He is the captain of his fate. His life over the last four years lead him inexorably to this place. He is the captain of how he manages this going forward..how he survives, what if anything he learns, how he manages. That is where I am today.
Echo
nlj
Well-Known Member
MidwestMom said: ↑
"The Occupy movement only lasted a while here and was more about kids getting free meals and drugs than really caring enough about anything to change it"
The core ideals of Occupy are ongoing, as are the members. I still follow Occupy London, Wall Street etc on Twitter. They're not sitting 'occupying' a physical space any more, but they're most definitely 'occupying' the web and they're not just about drugs and freebies - far from it!
Lucy
a.k.a. 'Mrs Outraged from Wales'
"The Occupy movement only lasted a while here and was more about kids getting free meals and drugs than really caring enough about anything to change it"
The core ideals of Occupy are ongoing, as are the members. I still follow Occupy London, Wall Street etc on Twitter. They're not sitting 'occupying' a physical space any more, but they're most definitely 'occupying' the web and they're not just about drugs and freebies - far from it!
Lucy
a.k.a. 'Mrs Outraged from Wales'
nlj
Well-Known Member
I'm very glad about that.
nlj
Well-Known Member
https://twitter.com/OccupyWallStNYC
https://twitter.com/OccupyLondon
A quarter of a million followers, including me.
What was that revolutionary slogan again Echo?
BusynMember
Well-Known Member
nlj, sure it is, but there is not a strong presence in the U.S. It only was in certain big cities anyway.
In the U.S., Occupy has no chance. They are in the minority and the country is in a huge conservative swing.
I'll bet a lot of kids don't even know what Occupy is. I know Jumper and Sonic wouldn't have a clue...probably Princess either. Bart may know, but scoff at them. We haven't had much going on with Occupy for a long, long time. It never got anywhere. Nothing has changed and the politcians are not paying attention to them. They do not equal enough votes and they will antagonize conservatives if they pay any attention to them. I am well awre that yong people in Europe are far more world-wise than in the U.S. and that our country is waaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyy more conservative. And apathetic. And insular.
Heck, when only half the population chooses to vote in a presidential election, you KNOW our country basically is not all that engaged in the affairs of things.
Having said that, I have no doubt that the smaller amount of people in the U.S. who DO care use the internet to continue communicating their wishes and to connect with others who think as they do. They won't get anywhere, at least not in the U.S.
Our state of Wisconsin just went "Right to Work" because of our uber-conservative govenor. That means the death of unions in a once very pro-union state. Trust me, things are changing here, but not Occupy's way. The rich and powerful have more power here than they ever had before in my lifetime.
In the U.S., Occupy has no chance. They are in the minority and the country is in a huge conservative swing.
I'll bet a lot of kids don't even know what Occupy is. I know Jumper and Sonic wouldn't have a clue...probably Princess either. Bart may know, but scoff at them. We haven't had much going on with Occupy for a long, long time. It never got anywhere. Nothing has changed and the politcians are not paying attention to them. They do not equal enough votes and they will antagonize conservatives if they pay any attention to them. I am well awre that yong people in Europe are far more world-wise than in the U.S. and that our country is waaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyy more conservative. And apathetic. And insular.
Heck, when only half the population chooses to vote in a presidential election, you KNOW our country basically is not all that engaged in the affairs of things.
Having said that, I have no doubt that the smaller amount of people in the U.S. who DO care use the internet to continue communicating their wishes and to connect with others who think as they do. They won't get anywhere, at least not in the U.S.
Our state of Wisconsin just went "Right to Work" because of our uber-conservative govenor. That means the death of unions in a once very pro-union state. Trust me, things are changing here, but not Occupy's way. The rich and powerful have more power here than they ever had before in my lifetime.
Carri
Active Member
My son does the same thing with me. And I too am kind of relieved when it doesn't pan out. It's too painful to see him. He's been couch surfing for a few months now and it's only a matter of time until he runs out of places to go. Will he go to jail again? Will he seek help? Is he hitting a new bottom? Until that time comes, I wince when I see a young man on the street with a backpack thinking it's my son. It's hard having him go through this in our home town. I hear a siren as I type and I'm thinking, oh that must be my son. I just wish he'd get picked up for an under the influence so I'd know where he was. He's 30 now and I'm so tired of the worrying. When he showed up at the house for a family gathering this weekend, he kept nodding off at the table, so sad. I hate seeing it yet was glad he showed up for his Papa's birthday. After everyone left, he sat at the counter while I did dishes with tears running down his cheeks. Terrible what a grip this addiction to heroin has on him. So grateful to have a place to come to read what others have to say regarding similar situations. Good not to be alone.
TerryJ2
Well-Known Member
Oh, Echolette, I am so sorry. It breaks my heart to read your note and to know you and your son are going through this.
I fear I may be following in your footsteps. Especially the part about fitting in ... they know they're different, just high functioning enough to be angry about it and to choose all the wrong ways to deal with it.
{{Hugs}}
I fear I may be following in your footsteps. Especially the part about fitting in ... they know they're different, just high functioning enough to be angry about it and to choose all the wrong ways to deal with it.
{{Hugs}}
Scent of Cedar *
Well-Known Member
It's nightmarish. I could never know what to do with the unexpected intensity of emotion I could neither name nor understand. We would search those streets for her and I hated that city, passionately hated everything about that city I once loved.
I mean that.
Today she is safe. I don't hate the city with that same passionate intensity. But there is a hardness about it now. Our minds and hearts work in such funny ways.
I don't know where the other hard places are. I only know they must be here, in me.
I'm sorry this is happening to you, and to your child.
Addiction is a terrible and destructive thing, most poignantly down in the places in the heart where a quiet, sort of indescribable satisfaction with ourselves and our lives and our children should be.
We can never rest. There is too much suffering.
When the worst of it was happening with daughter, I had only this site. Everything else was so echoey that it did not seem real. The horrible questions could be considered here, the depth of suffering explored.
I could be a spectator.
Someone known and cherished and someone from whom nothing was expected.
During those months and years, I had no energy for anything else. Worse, I no longer believed anything else was possible...and I had always believed there was a purpose, there was a reason, there was a good at the heart of all this, even if I could not ferret it out.
I lost that.
I did what I did by rote.
Even new things, I did by rote.
I described it as a loss of faith. I made it out of that place by refusing to say "No, there is no point in believing so I opt out." I began saying "yes", instead. Yes to everything that came along.
And each of those yesses developed into a new facet of life. In those new facets, those new places that had somehow come along exactly when I needed them, no one suspected any of what was true about me and about my heart and about my child.
I found Joel Osteen's sermons strengthening.
I made a study of suffering, and of how we make it through.
Gratitude for the beauty of the sunrise, Echo. Cherishing of those things ~ and they exist in every life ~ that are there to be cherished. Remain present. You can hear this, you can perform with steady grace.
Sometimes, there are no answers.
Understanding that relieves the pressure, removes that wish/demand of perfectionism ~ even at this late date, I was trying to fix things, was trying to make it alright!
:O)
I am coming through it still. I find myself very much in love with human things and human beings.
I did not fall in that hole where nothing touches me. Well, I did, but I filled the hole with facets of self and one day, there was no longer a hole, and I walked away.
There is so much suffering, Echo. And so much joy, such an intensity of joy.
I don't know why, any more.
I just stand there.
Cedar
Echolette
Well-Known Member
I know this feeling. In fact the best thing about having him in jail is that when I saw the paper on Monday morning and a young man had been stabbed to death in one of the neighborhoods, I didn't need to read on to see if it was my son.
Yes, that is the saddest part. My sister has a severely autistic son, too far out there to know he is different (nonverbal and minimally toilet trained at 23). I wouldn't want to trade, and yet the sadness is different.
yes, things I can barely say out loud can be addressed her.
When he called last night, still very worked up and pleading, he volunteered that he had been raped in jail the night before.
You know what I thought?
"doubt that, kiddo".
What kind of mom thinks that?
I went right to the place of Cedar's earlier message...his manipulation is frightening in its intensity.
But what if it is true?
Even so, even so. All his choices for four years lead him inexorably to this place.
We have a monkey wrench in that my ex's new wife is friends with the best criminal attorney in town..known for getting EVERYONE off...he says he can get him off...may even be willing to do it for free.
This to me doesn't impact the main issues...but it has my ex in a tizzy.
My sister wife (his new wife) is just trying to help, with three very young sons she can't imagine letting a kid stay in jail.
But she is wrong. And making the pain worse.
This is why we have the board, because you all can see and understand the layers.
yes. Walk the dogs, pet the cat. My other three kids piled in the car last night when we I went out to get our favorite guilty pleasure junk food dinner (I would say what but then you would all be jealous). I walked with my teenage boys to their train this morning and they were funny, and they love me. The sun is up. My SO brought me coffee. Gratitude.
Its the damn phone calls that kill me.
Sticking to one a day. I don't want him to feel abandoned. I tell myself I will be wisely supportive..but he starts wailing and to some extent excusing...and I light into him with "really???? this is not your fault???" so even there I am not who I want to be. Never really was in my relationship with him.
And so it goes.
SeekingStrength
Well-Known Member
Cedar, what a beautiful, beautiful post including pain and hope and joy. I just loved your crafting of the words here.
Echo,
Isn't that the truth? I re-blocked my difficult child's # this AM. Had unblocked it months ago, but some hateful things I found he posted on a forum (I contacted the site and they removed the posts within three hours) had husband and me reeling. Again. After we thought we were clear & free. That always happens after husband and I feel that way. difficult child does something to slap us back down a little. We spring back up more quickly these days. Not BOING!!!, more like a slow b------o-----i-----n------g.......
Both of your posts have so much hope mixed in with painful truth.
So glad all of have all of us here.
SS
