New member-Nothing seems to make sense anymore.

[BusynMember]

Malika, I think it is probably hard to get a diagnosis. of anything there. I have noticed that outside of the US and Canada, when somebody comes here with stories of really frightening behavior it is still diagnosed as only ADHD.

At any rate, I agree with most of your post. If your little guy truly has only ADHD, he should be able to live a normal life albeit with a few extra challenges Your son does not sound that far out of the range of ADHD. I believe he probably has plain ole ADHD. This poster is talking about more extreme behavior than J's.

 

[Giulia]

And I add to Malika that getting a diagnosis for ADHD to an adult is even harden than to a child. I needed 5 years to get the right diagnosis, and I was unable to function normally during those five years.
So yes, undiagnosed and untreated ADHD can impair a person to function (even if it's exceptional).

So no, sorry MWM, not everything in France is dressed up as ADHD. Instead, shrinks are very reluctant to diagnose someone with ADHD, claiming that it's a diagnosis invented to drug patients with Ritalin and make them excused to be only looser, and that they pretend to suffer (how often did I hear that "ADHD patients pretend to suffer" from shrinks ? Too often to count unfortunately). Heard from another shrink/teacher, "parents want a diagnosis of ADHD to get a fad excuse for their inability to love and raise their child : they are too lazy to hold their parental responsibilities. Social services do better than those bastards". They have studied medicine in an ill reputed greasy spoon, then they believe to know everything. I wish I could puke on them (but really puke, then it smells so badly that all their organs come out of their bodies).
MWM, we are in 2012, and we still hear such sentences from shrinks here because they don't want to recognize ADHD as a real disorder, for those, "patients want a diagnosis to be allowed to pretend to suffer, instead they don't suffer".
This is the first and real problem, with all the consequences which go behind (I would have had the diagnosis earlier, I would have been able to get my diploma and work nowadays, instead of having to fight to get the appropriate help I need).
And yes, I am angry, yes, I want those (I wish I could call them wastes in front of them, because they treat patients the way those I-know-eveything-better are inside : wastes) to walk in my shoes for all what they've said while pretending to know everything even if they don't. I am angry against them because my mom was considered as an inept parent, having to be blamed for her laziness and for not loving me whereas she was always there even when things fell apart. She did not deserve to be treated like that from so-told-professionals. I wish one day to see them treated the way they treated my mommy, and no, this anger cannot go away. This is now my reason to live, combating ignorance and arrogance against ADHD in my country.
It's the first time I dare telling it on a forum, but yes, I am ashamed to be a French citizen for the way they treat people with ADHD. I am ashamed of my citizenship, yes. I am ashamed of my country, yes. I cannot be proud of how French folks judge people with ADHD, or treat them as "persons who pretend to suffer, whereas they don't".

At least, MWM, you know that sad and cruel reality I've experienced. So, no, no, no, it's the whole contrary to what you said.

I know I am extreme in my words and feelings about it. But heck, I cannot agree when someone says that it's easy to get a diagnosis for ADHD in France, it cannot be further from truth.
Instead, they are reluctant to give it, because they accuse as not being a real disorder.

 

[BusynMember]

One last curious question. Do they readily diagnose anything? Bipolar? Autism? Anything? Then I'll shut myself up...lol.

 

[Giulia]

Some yes. Many adults with ADHD are misdiagnosed as bipolar. Wrong medicines and their debilitating side effects.
Other refuse to give a diagnosis not to label a person. They instead give antipsychotic telling the person that they don't need to know the diagnosis.
More often than not, we have to heavily insist to know the diagnosis.

About autism, you hit the nail of one of our biggest problems in France. They diagnose it as.... a childhood psychosis. No adapted care, or only in rare overcrowded places.
Parents blamed. Social services involved when the parents want to choose the right place for their child, considered as "they want to turn their child autistic, they refuse to heal their child" (how often can we hear something like that in France ?). They are sometimes consider worse than sex offenders (it's not a joke).

I let you figure out the problem we have in France. And how it can fuel such a anger. And why I cannot be proud of being a French citizen.
I wish everything to change, because there is nothing to be proud of.
Do you permit me to call them "wastes" and to wish them to be treated the same as they treat patients and families ?

 

[InsaneCdn]

MWM - the "new world" developed nations tend to be more open-minded about these things... that's yours and mine... and NZ and Aus. The rest of the world? Is anywhere from 20 to 200 years behind us on this front (not on ALL fronts...)

JMO, of course.

 

[Malika]

And the other side of course (because there is always one of those) is that the new world probably over-diagnoses and over-medicates. So you pays your money and you takes your choice, perhaps

 

[Giulia]

Malika, I think that the problem is not the quantity of diagnosis, but the quality of diagnosis. Its accuracy.
The main problem I believe is that people have a mental health problem, they go and see someone, but get out with the wrong diagnosis, so wrong treatment plan. Which leads to disaster.
Since symptoms overlap with many diagnosis, it's very difficult to diagnose as accurately as it should be.

 

[Malika]

Well, although I don't want to hijack this thread - which is about someone feeling that there is more going on than ADHD for her son and not being heard - I am actually glad, in a way, that I am in France with a probably ADHD child. Because... I am having to fight to some degree to get a diagnosis and absolutely nobody yet has seriously proposed giving him any form of medication. This means that when and if I do get a diagnosis and am reflecting on the "whether or not to medicate" dilemma, I will be fairly certain that a diagnosis hasn't been given lightly and medication is not being proposed too early. Personally I prefer this way round than diagnosis and medication too readily given.
What I do envy about the States, though, is all the panoply of sophisticated evaluations and testing you have there, which absolutely leaves France in the shade...

 

[Giulia]

And giving antipsychotics like candies without questioning side effects, whereas we make such a deal about Ritalin, does not seem a better solution, at least, for me.
We cannot use medicines as candies. The "only" *sight* problem here is that we often use antipsychotics like candies, because they are considered as "more acceptable socially speaking" without even questioning their side effects, whereas we treat persons under Ritalin like the worst drug dealer of the city.

Don't get me wrong, we have to give an antipsychotic if it's really needed.
But giving an antipsychotic whereas the person needs Ritalin giving the reason of "social acceptance" is much more dangerous than anything else. Antipsychotics have their bunch of side effects, whereas psychiatrists don't even question their side effects. More often than not, they give antipsychotics very lightly, whereas they make a lot of fuss about Ritalin. However, antipsychotic medicines are not "light medicines" at all.
For me, this is a bigger problem than treating the person with Ritalin for her ADHD. Much bigger problem.

I conclude saying that no medicine is a light medicine. Not even Tylenol/Doliprane (some people get liver failure from Doliprane).

 

[InsaneCdn]

And the other side of course (because there is always one of those) is that the new world probably over-diagnoses and over-medicates. So you pays your money and you takes your choice, perhaps

Probably to varying degrees.
Canada vs. US, for example - being the two I'm more familiar with - Canada is more moderate in this direction than the US is. Partly because Canada has public health care... someone keeps a lid on things at list a little bit.

No, there really is no ideal country in the world in which to be a person with challenges.

 

[DaisyFace]

And just to get back on topic...


My son was diagnosed with ADHD. Yes - he has a few sensory issues and fine motor issues - BUT his largest difficulty was inattention. He did NOT have rages. He was NOT violent. He did NOT display aggression in the classroom. Impulsivity? Heck yes! But aggression? Never!

ADHD and rages do NOT go hand in hand. Rages are NOT part of the diagnosis of ADHD. My son went through a serious of tests by a child psychologist of the course of several sessions and multiple hours. The testing was able to document a high IQ, but difficulty in skills that required a lot of attention. (That and the fact that the kid was barely able to complete the tests themselves was THE indicator of the ADHD.)

A diagnosis of ADHD does NOT automatically equal medication. We have been able to help my son with a few interventions in school. He has never been on Ritalin or any other drug to treat the ADHD. Over time, we are seeing him learn to implement strategies for managing his issues on his own.


So yes - your child may very well have ADHD plus something else - or it may not be ADHD at all...



Best of luck!

 

[BusynMember]

MWM - the "new world" developed nations tend to be more open-minded about these things... that's yours and mine... and NZ and Aus. The rest of the world? Is anywhere from 20 to 200 years behind us on this front (not on ALL fronts...)

JMO, of course.

I agree. Seems like many countries are where we once were when disabled children were hidden. I'm glad things have changed.

 

[Malika]

And just to get back on topic...


My son was diagnosed with ADHD. Yes - he has a few sensory issues and fine motor issues - BUT his largest difficulty was inattention. He did NOT have rages. He was NOT violent. He did NOT display aggression in the classroom. Impulsivity? Heck yes! But aggression? Never!

ADHD and rages do NOT go hand in hand. Rages are NOT part of the diagnosis of ADHD. My son went through a serious of tests by a child psychologist of the course of several sessions and multiple hours. The testing was able to document a high IQ, but difficulty in skills that required a lot of attention. (That and the fact that the kid was barely able to complete the tests themselves was THE indicator of the ADHD.)

A diagnosis of ADHD does NOT automatically equal medication. We have been able to help my son with a few interventions in school. He has never been on Ritalin or any other drug to treat the ADHD. Over time, we are seeing him learn to implement strategies for managing his issues on his own.


So yes - your child may very well have ADHD plus something else - or it may not be ADHD at all...



Best of luck!

My sense of all this - after a lot of research and reading, and talking, as doubtless everyone here on this board - is that there are basically two diagnoses that at a certain point in time got lumped together in the DSM. One is hyperactivity and the other is attention deficit. A child who is not hyperactive but who has problems of attention will (of course?) not have problems with rages or tantrums. But hyperactivity goes along with severe impulse control problems, difficulty accepting frustration - and this is what causes the tantruming and fits of anger. It honestly is part of the checklist for ADHD (obviously referring to the kids with H) because I've seen it many times and have had it described to me by a child psychiatrist. My own sense, again, is that the child's basic personality also plays into things and determines just how angry a child will get.

 

[InsaneCdn]

Anger is not part of the ADHD spectrum - at least, not in North America. In fact, frustration isn't, either. Impulsivity, hyperactivity, inattention - there are quite a number of symptoms and issues. But none of the measurement tools I've been around - and none of the professionals I've dealt with for almost 15 years - have ever linked anger or frustration to ADHD directly. And while there has been a lot of debate for at least 50 years as to whether the "hyper" and "inattentive" have much in common... in reality, they have MUCH in common, and the symptoms just show stronger in some areas than in others... both will usually have significant problems with organization, for example, and many classically "inattentive" types simply show their hyperactivity in other ways, such as excessive talking rather than "climbing walls"... but it is still "hyper". ADHD is a developmental issue - not as severe as Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) or Aspergers, different from Developmental Coordination Disorder (DCD) - but all of them are "developmental" in nature, and cover a broad spectrum.

ADHD and it's co-morbid dxes, when NOT diagnosed, or when not being given the appropriate interventions, accommodations and/or medications as appropriate... THAT can bring anger, frustration, depression, anxiety... but it isn't part of the ADHD.

Most extreme ADHDers that I've been around can leave a whole boat-wake of other people who are angry and/or frustrated... and won't have a clue they are doing so. They are more likely to be oblivious than to be frustrated. On the other hand... ADHDers with significant co-morbid dxes who aren't getting appropriate help for the co-morbid issues... are usually angry, frustrated, etc.

Maybe the anger/frustration being lumped into the ADHD is a European thing?

 

[InsaneCdn]

clmuppy... I hope we haven't lost you in the academic discussion of ADHD. Some of these "common" dxes are not nearly as well defined - or as universally defined - as we like to believe!

But... re-reading your posts... I'm seeing things that look more and more like my difficult child at that age. And... for difficult child? it took us much too long to find this out, but the single biggest challenge wasn't the ADHD, or even his Developmental Coordination Disorder (DCD) (motor sklls issues)... it was Auditory Processing Disorders (APD). APDs look exactly like ADHD - not paying attention, trouble following instructions, social impact, etc. Especially APDs like "auditory figure ground" - where they do not function well in noisy environments. Lunch and recess are... incredibly noisy. If he can't figure out what is going on... he can't really participate... and not participating results in being left out and socially ostracized. (been there done that) So, he could be getting lost in the class and on the playground... the overload from all of this creating serious burn-out, which he then explodes with at home.

If any of this is making sense... please look at a Speech Language Pathologist (SLP) evaluation for the full spectrum of Auditory Processing Disorders (APD) issues... Statistically, there's a high chance that a kid with ADHD either has a co-morbid diagnosis of Auditory Processing Disorders (APD)... or is Auditory Processing Disorders (APD) instead.

 

[Malika]

Well, I am confused by your assessment, IC. Just type "anger ADHD" into google and you will get very many sites come up... many of the American. Here's just a random example:

[h=1]ADHD & Anger in Children[/h] By Stacy Taylor, eHow Contributor


ADHD & Anger in Children
Children with ADHD often suffer intense hypersensitivity to certain events. Stressful situations that other children deal with calmly can push ADHD kids into exhibiting full blown emotional symptoms like frustration, panic attacks and anger. Most parents and professionals focus on the troubling social and educational problems associated with ADHD but it's important that the emotional symptoms receive an equal amount of attention so that these children can feel happy and safe.

Read more: ADHD & Anger in Children | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/facts_5002962_adhd-anger-children.html#ixzz1rKmk8XaR
​

 

[DammitJanet]

Well, my extremely adhd son was never violent or aggressive. I think he put the hyper into hyperactive. He climbed out of his crib at 5 months old but he was a very pleasant kid but he was just always on the go. In kindergarten the teacher said she didnt know how he learned anything because he walked in circles around the room and never sat still.

He was extremely miserable in first grade when they made the kids sit in desks and he came home every day for awhile asking me why they expected little boys to sit in a chair when there was a big old world out there to explore everyday. I felt so sorry for him. School was like being in jail for him until halfway through second grade when the reason for why he was there kicked in for him and he started learning really well. He took off really well then. I dont know what happened or why. It just seemed like seven and a half was a light bulb moment for him. But he never was a behavior problem or violent or aggressive. Oh sure he and his brothers had sibling rivalry issues that are typical of any boys. They played hard together and they tussled together. Nothing major.

 

[BusynMember]

In the US (and this is where this woman lives) if an angry kid is diagnosed ADHD at first (it is often a first diagnosis.) by the time the child is older, the diagnosis will likely have evolved. This is different countries and cultures looking at intangibles. Malika, here in the US your son may have another diagnosis on top of ADHD and certainly he would have had that label already. We do things differently. We get help at the first sign of trouble (early interventions) and believe this improves the outcome.

in my opinion since this woman is in the US, it is best to guide her on how to get the best help in school and the community in the US. An ADHD diagnosis alone will not get you much of anything because it is seen as impassivity and inattentiveness, but not much beyond that. This woman believes her c hild has more than ADHD, and by our standards, her child probably does. Since she will not get serious help for her child with just an ADHD diagnosis, in my opinion it's best for her to explore more completely. I'll bet my Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) son would have only had an ADHD diagnosis. in France. Things are different. As it is, my son has had a rather spectacular bit of help and is really doing well. I don't believe he is just ADHD.

This discussion is really getting off track. We are not helping the original poster...jmo!! Peace!

 

[InsaneCdn]

It isn't the ADHD that causes the hyper-sensitivity, and therefore the anger/stress/frustration. It's all the stuff that is so extremely co-morbid with ADHD that many professionals do not bother looking farther than the ADHD. It's the... sensory and auditory and secondary depression/anxiety and other co-morbid dxes, that are related to the hyper-sensitivity. And yes - hyper-sensitivities ARE a frequent cause for angry/violent outbursts... the kid has had more than they can take. difficult child has been there... but it isn't the ADHD that causes it... it's the other stuff that gets overlooked and ignored and not dealt with. Not dealing with it guarantees these kinds of challenges.

All the articles I've ever read (trust me, 5 years of running on almost no sleep, so I could juggle the working/parenting/research cycle...) HINT at these co-morbid things... using all sorts of fluffy labels (like hyper-sensitivity), but they don't delve deeper.

 

[Malika]

This discussion is really getting off track. We are not helping the original poster...jmo!! Peace!

I really believe it isn't off track, MWM. I find, and have found in my three or four years of looking at this, that the diagnosis and description of ADHD is extremely vague, contradictory, uncertain, fluid - and it is precisely this that the original post touched on. I do find all discussion from people who have been there done that, who have direct experience to relate, is very helpful - and I imagine I am not alone in that. For example... what IC says about anger being due to undiagnosed other conditions could well be the case.