New member-Nothing seems to make sense anymore.

[BusynMember]

Well, I disagree. It is different in different countries. She will not get much help with a simple ADHD diagnosis and it sounds like her child is really struggling. I had trouble getting help for my daughter. I was told out and out, "ADHD will not necessarily get you any interventions." It is that other stuff that Insane Canadian is talking about that could get the kid some help...the other things that some psychiatrists, especially in some countries, do not like to name. A mood disorder, sensory integration disorder, dyslexia, auditory processing disorder, Aspergers...these will get your child help. A simple diagnosis of ADD or ADHD is not on the list of disorders that HAVE to be accomodated.

And, trust me, schools do not like to accommodate if they don't have to. It costs them money. Even worse, in my opinion, a child diagnosed with only ADHD who acts out at school can be seen as a behavioral problem due to parenting issues and treated as a "bad" kid from a bad family (yes, they judge the family too). They put these kids together and often they pick up "bad" things from each other because they believe they are "bad."

I do not know how they handle ADHD in France...or Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) or bipolar or other things that kids have. But in the US you can get really good help for your child if he has the right, complete diagnosis. Without it, your child struggles and probably ends up being seen as bad. In the US at least, in my opinion it is not worth it. So where you live does matter...again in my opinion.

I have been told that things like depression and mood disorders are not diagnosed in most countries, yet I had one. I was the most depressed kid in the world and wanted to kill myself. This was at six years old and it only got worse as I got older. I was labeled "lazy" "a behavior problem" "slow" and a host of other things when my actual problems were depression with multiple learning problems that were quite severe. This was back in the 1960's so I got no help at all. I got bullied and teased, but not helped. This is MY story. The school considered "hyperactivity" when I was in my teens. It was brand new back then. I was actually extremely depressed/suicidal in my teens and very out of control. I took Ritalin and it made me worse. I did not have ADHD as my main problem. But back then, it was ADHD or nothing. That's what I see still going on in some other countries.

I agree that this is a worthwhile discussion, but probably should have been on it's own thread .

 

[Malika]

Sure... I don't disagree with anything you say. I can see how getting other, more finely tuned and accurate, diagnoses is helpful in terms of getting more complete services and interventions in the States. I am also trying to understand - and I think others must also be - exactly what ADHD is and consists of...

 

[InsaneCdn]

I do not know how they handle ADHD in France...or Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) or bipolar or other things that kids have. But in the US you can get really good help for your child if he has the right, complete diagnosis. Without it, your child struggles and probably ends up being seen as bad. In the US at least, in my opinion it is not worth it. So where you live does matter...again in my opinion

This is the same in Canada.
ADHD here does get you a few accommodations in school - they will specifically assist with organization, for example. But... they stop there. School, especially, but often the medical community, too.
And yes, it is the OTHER dxes that result in the necessary accommodations and interventions.

 

[Malika]

Well, maybe this is where the real dividing line between the cultures falls... in France (can't speak for the UK now), they seem to be quite up on the "dys" things like dyslexia, dysgraphia (is that what it is called in English??), etc in terms of diagnosis at the professional level but, curiously, there is absolutely no reflection of that in terms of understanding or acceptance of these things by the teaching body. And then things like sensory problems are just not widely understood or diagnosed at all. So parents have a real fight on their hands in terms of obtaining recognition and services. From this practical point of view, things seem much more sophisticated and organised in North America. I have reservations about the whole rush to medicate in the States but that is another issue.

 

[BusynMember]

Malika, I'm on board with the k ids getting medicated too early and too often and with too much. Trust me!

On the cultural front, I truly think Europe is more interested in education than the U S. Sad, but true. So the focus on problems in learning are good, although we do understand dyslexia and dyscalcula.

In the US, we do seem to care about actual mental illness, which was so mistreated at one time and I believe we do a bit of a better job in those areas. Maybe not. Who knows?

Thanks for a good, thoughtful discussion.

 

[buddy]

And, trust me, schools do not like to accommodate if they don't have to. It costs them money.

IN my family (extended) adhd also is not getting much support, when he was very young individual teachers would do some extra sticker rewards etc....but now?? nope. My sister finally submitted the letter and asked for an assessment. (by the way, they contacted her within a week and the initial evaluation planning meeting is already set for this coming week!, this is where usually (in my experience) our schools around the cities have been really good, we get audited a lot and so are pretty strict about timing and due process that way...they felt he needed support, I hope that continues when she meets with them)

As far as not wanting to do adhd supports due to finances, I dont disagree at all! BUT sadly I think it is more than that. Most people in the trenches, the teachers, therapists, etc. do not think of budget at all. When sitting around thinking of goals and accommodation suggestions and writing drafts, the admin is not anywhere around you. You write it up and propose it at meetings. (again MY experience, others have different I am sure) and I have not often been in meetings where accommodations like supporting a child with organization has been shot down. It doesn't affect salaries or add staff time so budget is not affected....

I think the break down is that people just dont do it. Maybe partly they are overwhelmed with numbers of students and ok, I will give people that, but it really does not take much and you can do it with a group (no shortage of kids who need that specific accommodation) and I hope one one can shoot me thru a computer screen, but I think it is often people being lazy. Sad but true in my humble opinion.

 

[Malika]

This is another difference... sounds like you are all saying ADHD is no big deal in the States that merits little attention or help, whereas in France it is this HUGE deal that is like some great monster if you talk about it in terms of your child or to school staff. It is seen as so big that you are kind of strange for "wanting" your child to have it, if that makes any sense. I get the impression from my son's teacher that I should just sit down and shut up about it...
In terms of the original question, and the new member who came here looking for help (mea culpa for taking us off track from that), she feels that there is more going on for her son than ADHD because of his rages. What would be the best way for her to get more specific help with that - further evaluations, presumably? It doesn't sound as if her school is being very sympathetic to understanding that there is more going on than "bad behaviour"...

 

[InsaneCdn]

Yes, several on this thread have recommended... further evaluations - for the kinds of things that either go with ADHD, or that may look like ADHD.

 

[BusynMember]

There is no real shame here in a child having any diagnosis. All is out in the open and there are experts, groups, and support groups for every sort of disorder. We like to get to the bottom of things and help the child as early as possible. When that does not happen, in my opinion, you are likely to end up like me...getting worse with age and no treatment and almost a school dropout because when you feel like killing yourself, school doesn't really matter much to you, and you can't focus anyone...and it has nothing to do with ADHD. Depression and other mood disorders also make it very difficult to focus or even to care about anything. I used to daydream so much that one of my teachers called my mother, concerned about my mental health. She would call on me and I "wasn't there." Daydreaming helped me cope with the dibilitating depression. To this day, I would be like this without medication...and I *was* like that until I got on helpful medications. I also had rages and anger attacks, as I called them, even as an adult. This does NOT mean that every disorder requires medication. It's just how things worked out for me.

ADHD is a blip on the screen here. I know so many kids labeled ADHD that I can't even count them on both of my hands twice. Some are on medications, but I only know because their parents told me. Most act like normal every day kids, including my daughter. When the behavior problems start, that's when we suggest going to a neuropsychologist (my favorite diagnosticians because they are so thorough). in my opinion it is a good thing to look at everything and also in my opinion getting help if it is "iffy" as to whether a child needs it or not is more proactive and much better than hoping it will go away. in my opinion it is more likely to get worse than to go away.

 

[Giulia]

To talk about the cultural matter in France (which I know by experience), I agree with Malika. I will even go further.

People are so turned into education, the way of educating and such that if you have a neuropsychologist disorder like ADHD, Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD), parents are more often than not blamed for having been the cause of their child's disorder and not wanting him to heal. Many child psychiatrists here think that Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD), ADhD... can be healed and if the child does not want to heal, it's because of his parents who prevent him from healing. (WTH I know. It's the cruel truth we live here).
If we ask accommodations at school for Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD), ADHD, sensory issues, you are often told that your child shall not be there but in a specialized school. However, specialized school for children with Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) are more prone to get occupational stuff, thinking they will heal earlier or later the children (as parents are to blame). The problem is that children are not receiving proper care, they are only given neuroleptic when they become agitated, angry or such. For this reason, I permit myself to say that here, they give neuroleptic medicines like if they were candies, without even questioning their side effects, whereas they consider giving Ritalin as "making a child become a drug addict". Giving the reason of "parents who pretend to love their child, whereas they don't".
Those professional believe to know everything whereas the thing is... they don't.

Parents here fight for things to change.
It is just starting to move, but change is happening too slowly.

About dyslexia, it is wider known than dyscalculia. However, many Maths teachers, psychologists and so say that if a person with dyscalculia, dyslexia, or such have difficulties, it's because they want to have difficulties.
Not all are like that, but it's difficult to find a teacher, a health care professional, who understands such problems.
Funnily if we want, primary care physicians are more open minded about these kind of problems (not all though, but they are more open minded than specialists).

I had to fight a lot, and I know I have to continue the fight.
Like many persons in my country.
And sometimes, it makes me ashamed of being a French citizen.

 

[Malika]

MWM said: "ADHD is a blip on the screen here. I know so many kids labeled ADHD that I can't even count them on both of my hands twice. Some are on medications, but I only know because their parents told me. Most act like normal every day kids, including my daughter. When the behavior problems start, that's when we suggest going to a neuropsychologist"

Yes, but (there's always one of those, right? ) it seems like from what the original poster said, things are sometimes not so hot in the States in terms of getting finer and more accurate diagnoses than just vanilla-flavoured ADHD, right?

 

[BusynMember]

They are not 100% anywhere. You have to keep trying until your child is better. And, again, in the US this is vital because you are entitled to many interventions and accomodations in school and at work for serious disabilities, but ADHD is not considered serious.

Most caring parents check out medical side effects before giving children medication. It does no good to keep a child unmedicated if the qualilty of his life sucks. If a child has bipolar and it is unmedicated, he has a 60% chance of committing suicide. This has been studied. Unmedicated bipolar is plain dangerous. And ADHD can be the first diagnosis. when it is really bipolar.

I don't know. Most of us will go with the system that we are used to and trust and where we see results. I am not in favor of giving one child five medicatioins...I think that is insane, but that's again JMO. However...if our chldren had, say, epilepsy we would not hesitate to medicate them. Or diabetes. I think of brain disorders (mental health issues) the same way. Some people can control diabetes with diet and that is good. Some NEED insulin. There is no choice. Some mildly depressed people can function with exercise and therapy and that is good. But some can not get better with that alone. In that case, they need medication as much as the person who has epilepsy or diabetes. They are all chemical or neurological problems that need medical interventions. Many bipolar young adults get manic, steal in their manic/psychotic mindstate, and end up in jail for breaking the law. This is usually when they go off their medication.

ADHD is often diagnosed when the child really has mood disorders or Autistic Spectrum Disorder, at least in the US. In the US, ADHD is not a catch-all for everything. Ritalin is not the medication that we think will help everything eitiher. It's not even used much anymore. There is quite a cultural difference in how disorders/mental illness is treated in various places.

 

[Malika]

That's interesting to find out more about how the other half live... In France, ADHD also isn't a catch-all. Basically, there is still much more of a tendency here to give psychological explanations for a child's behaviour, related to his or her family background and life circumstances. These things obviously play a part, and no-one really knows how much of a part they play, but in the world generally, and in France slowly, it is increasingly accepted that many conditions are neuro-biological and therefore amenable to medication. But there's definitely a stigma attached to ADHD here, and I think that is what you are saying is one of the good things about the situation now in the US, MWM, that this stigma has disappeared... France is a highly conformist, highly coded society in which any differences are judged harshly by most people. There is an extremely strong pressure to fit in to the social norms and codes and that is why ADHD youngsters here have such a hard time in school, for example. You should see the little book in which my son practices "calligraphy", copying out individual letters and little phrases that the teacher writes out - any slight deviation from the "perfect standard" is circled by her in red ink and he then feels he hasn't done it "right"... whereas in fact his writing is really fantastic, given that he probably has some fine motor skills difficulties and has to struggle to concentrate on this kind of thing, etc. Remember that the teacher basically dismisses ADHD, says J doesn't have it and slightly ridicules me for imagining that he does
Yes, different cultures have different ways of handling things. I'm just saying it wouldn't necessarily be a better option in my view to have J medicated on a stimulant because everyone has rushed to diagnose him.

 

[BusynMember]

Malika, I'm really not talking about medication as not all people with ADHD/Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD)/whatever kids choose to medicate. My son is Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) and is unmedicated. However, help is there in school, in the community, and in life afterward. It is not scorned at nor seen as a bad thing nor is conformity considered especially positive in the US. We are strong individualists living within many cultures so we are definitely not all the same. And in many cases, we mingle well together and sometimes we don't, but we do not care if some children are "different." Teachers can be cold to differences, because it makes their job harder, and they can guess that the home life is terrible, but psychiatrists and psychologists have mostly been Freuded out.

Family life may or may not be a factor in a child's behavior. A lot of how a child acts is inherited. If you met your son's birthmother and birthfather, I'll bet you'd see your son in them, even down to some of his mannerisms. In our adoption group, parents who know their kids birthparents almost always comment that their children are more like them than like the homes they are being raised in. It's very interesting.

I think that is why traditional parenting techniques don't work for our differently wired children. However, for, say, a child who has severe ADD, as my daughter was diagnosed, she can be greatly helped in school by nontradional interventions (she is n Occupational Therapist (OT) on medications). She is allowed to take her tests in quiet places, such as the school library. She is allowed to have an extra study hall where there is a teacher who will sit with her and make sure she understands her work. She is allowed to take more time doing those tests and some homework than the other kids. She has about seven other kids in her class with various learning disabilities that have similar accommodations. Of late, she is not utilizing her accommodations much and is still doing well. So acknowledging a neurobiological difference does not automatically mean it has to be corrected by medication. There are other ways to deal with various disorders in many cases. Now in my own case, I have a serious mood disorder...nothing helped except medication. In fact it spiraled out of control. I wish there HAD been medications when I'd been a child. In essence, my childhood was a very sad experience for me and I think every child should at least be given a chance at a happy, carefree childhood. But my main problem was not ADHD (although I'm sure I had/have that too). Notice I don't list it in my signature since it's kind of an afterthought to me.