M
mrsammler
Guest
What is CPS?
Positive thoughts about difficult child
- Thread starter Allan-Matlem
- Start date
T
toughlovin
Guest
Cooperative problem solving.
Allan-Matlem
Active Member
Hounddog,
When people talk about positive and negative from a traditional parenting point of view - it means praise , rewards or criticism/ consequences and punishment - the same thing - using extrinsic motivation to modify behavior and make sure that your expectations of your kids are met and you have set limits and boundaries. To use a CPS term - this is called plan A - imposing the parents will and addressing the adults concerns.
Now instead of Plan A - we can use Plan B = cps and
1 get parents concerns and expectations on the table and met
2 child's
3 find a solution which addresses both concerns
When people talk about positive and negative from a traditional parenting point of view - it means praise , rewards or criticism/ consequences and punishment - the same thing - using extrinsic motivation to modify behavior and make sure that your expectations of your kids are met and you have set limits and boundaries. To use a CPS term - this is called plan A - imposing the parents will and addressing the adults concerns.
Now instead of Plan A - we can use Plan B = cps and
1 get parents concerns and expectations on the table and met
2 child's
3 find a solution which addresses both concerns
T
toughlovin
Guest
What happes if there is not a solution that meets both the parents and childs expectations and needs? Or if the childs expectations are totally unreasonable or dangerous?
dashcat
Member
Allan,
Your theory is applicable - to a degree, and mostly only with PCs or perhaps very young difficult children. You state your adult children are "very much pcs". Do you believe they attained this status because of positive thinking? I would have believed that at one time, too.
The benefit of the doubt rarely works with a full blown difficult child. Very small example: I opened a checking account for my difficult child when she was a junior in HS. She had a babysitting job and was required to bank 1/2 of her paycheck for college books, a car or some other big expense. The rest was hers to do as she pleased. In ohio, an adult must bea joint account holder and I thought that teaching her to manage checking/atm at that age was a good idea.
I Showed her how to balance with the register and assumed all was well. She overdrew but bank did not impose penalty. I explained that there would be a penality if there was a next time and created an excel sheet she could use from her laptop that auotmatically subtracted withdrawls and added depoosits. She overdrew, claiming something outlandish enough for me to let it slide. Benefit of the doubt, but I made her pay the fee. She overdrew again. I made her pay the fee again and told her - next time - the account would be closed. She did it again, and I closed it.
When she went to college, she needed to open a checking account (she was 18). I fronted her the $50 from her savings (she'd not figured out she had access to this) with instructions she was to keep it as a baseline and not spend. She overdrew, wracked up $200 in fees and the bank closed the account.
When she got a speedng ticket on her way home from college, I paid the $80 as she promised she'd send me her paycheck from her work study job. Not only did she never send it, she had been lying about the work/study.
I haven't loaned her as much as a nickle since ... and I will not. She eventually drained her savings on a hotel spree with a stranger she met on the internet. According to her dad (with whom she lives,rent free) she owes $80 in library fines $2,000 in student loans and a crazy amount to him.
Benefit of the doubt? Maybe with a scared eight year old who may or may not have sent the baseball flying through the neighbor's garage window... but not with a difficult child.
In retrospect, I should have closed the checking account after the second overdraft and told her she was on her own with the ticket.
One thing I agree with y ou on, though, is acceptance. I accept that my daughter is not a easy child. I accept that she has many abilities that she can - some day - figure out how to tap into in a positive way. I make it a policy to not enable her, but to always always love what is.
Dash
Your theory is applicable - to a degree, and mostly only with PCs or perhaps very young difficult children. You state your adult children are "very much pcs". Do you believe they attained this status because of positive thinking? I would have believed that at one time, too.
The benefit of the doubt rarely works with a full blown difficult child. Very small example: I opened a checking account for my difficult child when she was a junior in HS. She had a babysitting job and was required to bank 1/2 of her paycheck for college books, a car or some other big expense. The rest was hers to do as she pleased. In ohio, an adult must bea joint account holder and I thought that teaching her to manage checking/atm at that age was a good idea.
I Showed her how to balance with the register and assumed all was well. She overdrew but bank did not impose penalty. I explained that there would be a penality if there was a next time and created an excel sheet she could use from her laptop that auotmatically subtracted withdrawls and added depoosits. She overdrew, claiming something outlandish enough for me to let it slide. Benefit of the doubt, but I made her pay the fee. She overdrew again. I made her pay the fee again and told her - next time - the account would be closed. She did it again, and I closed it.
When she went to college, she needed to open a checking account (she was 18). I fronted her the $50 from her savings (she'd not figured out she had access to this) with instructions she was to keep it as a baseline and not spend. She overdrew, wracked up $200 in fees and the bank closed the account.
When she got a speedng ticket on her way home from college, I paid the $80 as she promised she'd send me her paycheck from her work study job. Not only did she never send it, she had been lying about the work/study.
I haven't loaned her as much as a nickle since ... and I will not. She eventually drained her savings on a hotel spree with a stranger she met on the internet. According to her dad (with whom she lives,rent free) she owes $80 in library fines $2,000 in student loans and a crazy amount to him.
Benefit of the doubt? Maybe with a scared eight year old who may or may not have sent the baseball flying through the neighbor's garage window... but not with a difficult child.
In retrospect, I should have closed the checking account after the second overdraft and told her she was on her own with the ticket.
One thing I agree with y ou on, though, is acceptance. I accept that my daughter is not a easy child. I accept that she has many abilities that she can - some day - figure out how to tap into in a positive way. I make it a policy to not enable her, but to always always love what is.
Dash
I agree. I do try to focus on the positives in both my children, and do my best to tell them things like "I know you can do this, I have faith in you," etc. They both know that I love and support them ... when their choices warrant that support. When they choose to do things such as, spend all their money on drinking or tanning memberships, then are unable to pay their rent and want me to help them out, umm nope, no support from me, emotional or financial.
Allan, I'm sorry that we all seem to be "jumping" on you, but I'm not quite sure you understand your audience here in PE. You admitted yourself that your adult children are PCs. Ours are not, that's why we're here. I'd really be curious to hear your thoughts on how, or even if, CPS could possibly be used in the situations that have been described here. Frankly, I can't see how it could with an untreated personality disorder or other mental illness, or drug/alcohol addiction. That is what many of us are dealing with here. If our children were willing to get treatment, and were active in their own recovery or treatment, it might be a different story. But for most of us, that's not the case.
HereWeGoAgain
Grandpa
The thing about Collaborative Problem Solving is, that it takes two to collaborate. And those two must agree that there is a problem to be solved, and must both want to solve it. If those conditions are met, then CPS is viable; but absent any one of them, it is an exercise in futility, in my opinion.
Hound dog
Nana's are Beautiful
The problem with plan B, while it sound great, with an uncooperative difficult child ( and 99 percent of them are, especially as adults) you may have the parent willing but that child is going to laugh at you, deny there is a problem, and go on about their business.
If plan A is "imposing the parents will", then in my opinion, CPS is a bunch of bull hockey. A parent sets rules and boundaries when a child is young to guide and teach them. One person can't force another person to do anything, most especially once they become adults. If you're dealing with a person with full blown mental illness or addiction.....force nor reason is going to reach them. Simply because their thought processes are no longer normal, their very perception of the world around them is not normal. CPS is not going to work with a person who is manic, a person dealing with hallucination or paranoia, or even a person dealing with anxiety.
In PE we're dealing with kids who refuse to admit there is a problem, refuse treatment, refuse medications, and those who self medicate with street drugs or alcohol. Plan B sounds good, but requires the cooperation of the person you're trying to help, just as the Plan A method does. Only plan B has nothing to motivate the person to want that help or to even see there is a problem to get them into the chair to listen.
I'm not going to say Plan B is totally wrong, because it isn't. It's what you do with a child who has decided they want help. You find out what their goals in life are and help them find ways to meet them. I did this with Nichole while she was actively seeking stability. But.......without negative feedback, even plan B won't work. Nichole had the desire to change. She was making the effort to change. She was working hard to change. But her views and perceptions of the world around her were so warped that without negative feedback of how certain behaviors affected those around her ect.......she couldn't see for herself what behaviors needed to change or why. And even with her actively seeking help and guidance it was a very bumpy hard road.
Nichole was diagnosed with bipolar and Borderline (BPD). While I don't doubt the Borderline (BPD) diagnosis, I've never bought into the bipolar diagnosis....depressed yes, bipolar she was missing the manic behavior. Rage though, she had enough for about 100 people. The rage stemmed from her distorted views of the world and people around her. I can assure you there was no imposing my will on Nichole in any way shape or form. She reached stability and easy child status because she wanted to reach it. Through negative feedback via her daughter's Aubrey reactions to her unstable behavior, Nichole found the motivation to become stable. Her choice. Not my will. Her sister, on the other hand, choses to ignore the living hades she has and is putting her children through while continuing to deny there is a problem. I find it interesting that Katie only felt the desire to change once she experienced some of the negative feedback of her behavior, when that feedback is gone, so is the desire.
I strongly suspect that people using plan B are also using negative feedback and either don't realize it or are fooling themselves into believing they're not. Positive and negative go hand in hand, you can't have one without the other. Negative doesn't have to be in your face, it can be a subtle change in your behavior, it can be setting up those boundaries to protect your home and the people inside the home. Those are negative feedback. If you went full blown positive, those boundaries and similar more subtle ones would not have to be put into place. If you truly believed plan B was the answer, there would be no need to even have subtle negative feedback, let alone boundaries because of course since you straightened everything out the child is (notice that positive verb there) going to change their behavior and stick to the plan.
Unrealistic. And I see a strong inclination for denial in that method. I see a denial that mental illness is real. Plan B implies that someone can be "cured" simply because they want to be, which is ridiculous simply because mental illness is as much biological in nature as psychological. One can't choose to no longer have diabetes simply because they want to be like everyone else and come up with plan to make it so. They can, however, not deny they have diabetes, stay on their diet, and take their medications to be as close to "normal" as possible. But they will never be normal, they have diabetes.
Nichole is stable and has achieved easy child status. She is in no way "cured" of Borderline (BPD). She will live with it the rest of her life. She will always have to be alert to Borderline (BPD) behaviors and act accordingly in order to not lose her hold on stability. Realistically? She will have more bumps along the way, set backs, and I have faith she will find her way back again to stability if that should happen. Her support system, her family, has been educated in her disorder so that we can help her find her way back. Without such a support system, should she dive over the edge........she would most likely not find her way back.
A easy child can fall under bad influence and behave to the point of being considered a difficult child. The difference between a easy child and a difficult child? A easy child will likely discover on their own that difficult child behavior is not beneficial eventually. A easy child could probably use plan B to find their way back to pcdom, even if negative feedback was kept to a bare minimum, and live the rest of their lives as a easy child happy as a lark. A difficult child has a mental condition or an addiction. It is next to impossible to get them to see there is a problem, let alone admit their diagnosis. While through treatment, medication, ect they might be able to achieve stability, they will always have their mental condition or addiction. While they may act like a easy child while stable, the threat is always looming in the background that the stability they enjoy is something they constantly have to work hard at to maintain. As much as they want to be, they will never be a easy child.
If plan A is "imposing the parents will", then in my opinion, CPS is a bunch of bull hockey. A parent sets rules and boundaries when a child is young to guide and teach them. One person can't force another person to do anything, most especially once they become adults. If you're dealing with a person with full blown mental illness or addiction.....force nor reason is going to reach them. Simply because their thought processes are no longer normal, their very perception of the world around them is not normal. CPS is not going to work with a person who is manic, a person dealing with hallucination or paranoia, or even a person dealing with anxiety.
In PE we're dealing with kids who refuse to admit there is a problem, refuse treatment, refuse medications, and those who self medicate with street drugs or alcohol. Plan B sounds good, but requires the cooperation of the person you're trying to help, just as the Plan A method does. Only plan B has nothing to motivate the person to want that help or to even see there is a problem to get them into the chair to listen.
I'm not going to say Plan B is totally wrong, because it isn't. It's what you do with a child who has decided they want help. You find out what their goals in life are and help them find ways to meet them. I did this with Nichole while she was actively seeking stability. But.......without negative feedback, even plan B won't work. Nichole had the desire to change. She was making the effort to change. She was working hard to change. But her views and perceptions of the world around her were so warped that without negative feedback of how certain behaviors affected those around her ect.......she couldn't see for herself what behaviors needed to change or why. And even with her actively seeking help and guidance it was a very bumpy hard road.
Nichole was diagnosed with bipolar and Borderline (BPD). While I don't doubt the Borderline (BPD) diagnosis, I've never bought into the bipolar diagnosis....depressed yes, bipolar she was missing the manic behavior. Rage though, she had enough for about 100 people. The rage stemmed from her distorted views of the world and people around her. I can assure you there was no imposing my will on Nichole in any way shape or form. She reached stability and easy child status because she wanted to reach it. Through negative feedback via her daughter's Aubrey reactions to her unstable behavior, Nichole found the motivation to become stable. Her choice. Not my will. Her sister, on the other hand, choses to ignore the living hades she has and is putting her children through while continuing to deny there is a problem. I find it interesting that Katie only felt the desire to change once she experienced some of the negative feedback of her behavior, when that feedback is gone, so is the desire.
I strongly suspect that people using plan B are also using negative feedback and either don't realize it or are fooling themselves into believing they're not. Positive and negative go hand in hand, you can't have one without the other. Negative doesn't have to be in your face, it can be a subtle change in your behavior, it can be setting up those boundaries to protect your home and the people inside the home. Those are negative feedback. If you went full blown positive, those boundaries and similar more subtle ones would not have to be put into place. If you truly believed plan B was the answer, there would be no need to even have subtle negative feedback, let alone boundaries because of course since you straightened everything out the child is (notice that positive verb there) going to change their behavior and stick to the plan.
Unrealistic. And I see a strong inclination for denial in that method. I see a denial that mental illness is real. Plan B implies that someone can be "cured" simply because they want to be, which is ridiculous simply because mental illness is as much biological in nature as psychological. One can't choose to no longer have diabetes simply because they want to be like everyone else and come up with plan to make it so. They can, however, not deny they have diabetes, stay on their diet, and take their medications to be as close to "normal" as possible. But they will never be normal, they have diabetes.
Nichole is stable and has achieved easy child status. She is in no way "cured" of Borderline (BPD). She will live with it the rest of her life. She will always have to be alert to Borderline (BPD) behaviors and act accordingly in order to not lose her hold on stability. Realistically? She will have more bumps along the way, set backs, and I have faith she will find her way back again to stability if that should happen. Her support system, her family, has been educated in her disorder so that we can help her find her way back. Without such a support system, should she dive over the edge........she would most likely not find her way back.
A easy child can fall under bad influence and behave to the point of being considered a difficult child. The difference between a easy child and a difficult child? A easy child will likely discover on their own that difficult child behavior is not beneficial eventually. A easy child could probably use plan B to find their way back to pcdom, even if negative feedback was kept to a bare minimum, and live the rest of their lives as a easy child happy as a lark. A difficult child has a mental condition or an addiction. It is next to impossible to get them to see there is a problem, let alone admit their diagnosis. While through treatment, medication, ect they might be able to achieve stability, they will always have their mental condition or addiction. While they may act like a easy child while stable, the threat is always looming in the background that the stability they enjoy is something they constantly have to work hard at to maintain. As much as they want to be, they will never be a easy child.
Star*
call 911........call 911
Hi Allan - How are you?
Before I get into any deep tet a tet - so to speak - Can I address the first line of your first post? I have questions and I'd like to start with the first line. (I've posted it here because I'd like to know what you meant by the phrase "As a parent I find excuses for the behavior.")
Do you mean in order to have peace in your life as part of your plan of detachment?
Do you mean in order to have a non-confrontational moment with the child who has had bad behavior in moving on from one step to the next part of a solution in that particular situation as part of your problem solving - as in THIS is how you are dealing with "getting over" what the child has done so you can deal with the situation?
The reason I ask is because at this point? I personally have somewhat black and white thinking on right and wrong with anyone. If you have or did a certain thing, and it was wrong - it was wrong. For example I know I am not supposed to steal from the Quicky Mart a pack of gum. There are consequences for my behavior - 'jail'. I go in, I want the gum. I steal it. I don't get caught, go home, my parents catch me. Now at this point if I understand your thinking correctly; you would ignore the why of this - ( I saw the gum, I wanted it, so I took it, and jepordized going to jail) all unimportant so we just say - I took it because I have 'issues'? Then you say what? Let's not do it again, it was wrong and in a nice tone?
I can see the calm nice tone part, because upsetting myself and yelling doesn't get much accomplished but upsetting myself, and the part where I took the gum? Is done. However, sometimes I can attest to the fact that went children do wrong there is a way to get the point across by saying "YOU took the pack of gum, and stealing is wrong, you can go to jail, jail is unpleasant, and can ruin your life for a long time due to a record that will follow you, cause you to have problems getting a good job, and take years to fix." - I can say that, not find excuses for the behavior and still get my point across in a stern, loving voice and not upset myself.
Trust me? In my lifetime? Had I stolen a pack of gum? My Mother wouldn't have given me the benefit of anything, made excuses, or allowed any motives - there was just this - "You don't take anything that doesn't belong to you and that's the law." So what were the consequences if you did break the law? Jail. Why was jail such a horrible place? Because home was such a great place - who would want to not ever be there? Now adays it's not so. You have kids that would rather sleep in the park than at home, familes struggle, the grass is always greener, jail is romanticized, gangs are made out to be mysterious and cool, and parents are worn out and too tired to complete discipline necessary to even make a toddler stay in a time out chair for the minutes equal to her age for biting her siblings. It's like a generation of parents who completely lack parenting skills. (sans this board)
Then you throw into the mix - some mysterious rise in mental health issues and Apsies, Autism, Conduct Disorders -and you have the general population we live with here in the US. It's nuts. Plus I'll be the first to admit - I wish I knew then how to be the parent I am NOW. Sad to say - but I'm going to be an awesome Grandma to someone. I spent time on the floor yesterday wtih 4 kids that when I was 25 would have made me nuts - and we played nicely for about 30 minutes and I solved all kinds of problems and hangups and said all the right things to avoid confrontations, and parents near to us were amazed with my mad skills. It came as natural as me writing to you. So I think when you say Now a days? That's the crux of it. But I just wondered why you said "make excuses" ? Then I'll read on.
One of the things I try to do as a parent is to give the kid the benefit of the doubt, find excuses for the behavior, attribute the best possible motives to behavior according to the facts of the situation.
My gain - when things go wrong - I am emotionally in control and free . Why should I double the suffering - is it not enough that the kid screws that I also need to get upset and suffer. In any case my ability to deal with the situation and be responsive and creative will be limitted by being upset.
Now a days I take things further - think of the kid as somebody special , doing the best they can
Giving a person the benefit of the doubt , not being judgemental is for US , our ability to stay calm.
Allan
http://allankatz-parentingislearning.blogspot.com/
Before I get into any deep tet a tet - so to speak - Can I address the first line of your first post? I have questions and I'd like to start with the first line. (I've posted it here because I'd like to know what you meant by the phrase "As a parent I find excuses for the behavior.")
Do you mean in order to have peace in your life as part of your plan of detachment?
Do you mean in order to have a non-confrontational moment with the child who has had bad behavior in moving on from one step to the next part of a solution in that particular situation as part of your problem solving - as in THIS is how you are dealing with "getting over" what the child has done so you can deal with the situation?
The reason I ask is because at this point? I personally have somewhat black and white thinking on right and wrong with anyone. If you have or did a certain thing, and it was wrong - it was wrong. For example I know I am not supposed to steal from the Quicky Mart a pack of gum. There are consequences for my behavior - 'jail'. I go in, I want the gum. I steal it. I don't get caught, go home, my parents catch me. Now at this point if I understand your thinking correctly; you would ignore the why of this - ( I saw the gum, I wanted it, so I took it, and jepordized going to jail) all unimportant so we just say - I took it because I have 'issues'? Then you say what? Let's not do it again, it was wrong and in a nice tone?
I can see the calm nice tone part, because upsetting myself and yelling doesn't get much accomplished but upsetting myself, and the part where I took the gum? Is done. However, sometimes I can attest to the fact that went children do wrong there is a way to get the point across by saying "YOU took the pack of gum, and stealing is wrong, you can go to jail, jail is unpleasant, and can ruin your life for a long time due to a record that will follow you, cause you to have problems getting a good job, and take years to fix." - I can say that, not find excuses for the behavior and still get my point across in a stern, loving voice and not upset myself.
Trust me? In my lifetime? Had I stolen a pack of gum? My Mother wouldn't have given me the benefit of anything, made excuses, or allowed any motives - there was just this - "You don't take anything that doesn't belong to you and that's the law." So what were the consequences if you did break the law? Jail. Why was jail such a horrible place? Because home was such a great place - who would want to not ever be there? Now adays it's not so. You have kids that would rather sleep in the park than at home, familes struggle, the grass is always greener, jail is romanticized, gangs are made out to be mysterious and cool, and parents are worn out and too tired to complete discipline necessary to even make a toddler stay in a time out chair for the minutes equal to her age for biting her siblings. It's like a generation of parents who completely lack parenting skills. (sans this board)
Then you throw into the mix - some mysterious rise in mental health issues and Apsies, Autism, Conduct Disorders -and you have the general population we live with here in the US. It's nuts. Plus I'll be the first to admit - I wish I knew then how to be the parent I am NOW. Sad to say - but I'm going to be an awesome Grandma to someone. I spent time on the floor yesterday wtih 4 kids that when I was 25 would have made me nuts - and we played nicely for about 30 minutes and I solved all kinds of problems and hangups and said all the right things to avoid confrontations, and parents near to us were amazed with my mad skills. It came as natural as me writing to you. So I think when you say Now a days? That's the crux of it. But I just wondered why you said "make excuses" ? Then I'll read on.
One of the things I try to do as a parent is to give the kid the benefit of the doubt, find excuses for the behavior, attribute the best possible motives to behavior according to the facts of the situation.
My gain - when things go wrong - I am emotionally in control and free . Why should I double the suffering - is it not enough that the kid screws that I also need to get upset and suffer. In any case my ability to deal with the situation and be responsive and creative will be limitted by being upset.
Now a days I take things further - think of the kid as somebody special , doing the best they can
Giving a person the benefit of the doubt , not being judgemental is for US , our ability to stay calm.
Allan
http://allankatz-parentingislearning.blogspot.com/
T
toughlovin
Guest
A couple thoughts....
Dash - I totally get what you are saying about money and difficult children.... We have just started my easy child daughter almost 16 with an ATM card. We sat down and talked with her about the money she needs for various things (ie clothes, lunches, time with friends etc.) and we started her on a weekly amount that covers everything.... so now we only pay for household items and food etc. We did this so she will learn to manage money on her own etc. It was definitely a cooperative discussion..... and she is doing great with it. Of course one reason we can do this with her is that difficult child is out of the house.... we never would have done this with difficult child.... too much money to be used for no good!!! We didn't trust him and he is not responsible but now he is going to be forced to learn to manage money the hard way. She is doing very well with it so far.
And I do keep wondering specifically how on earth CPS would have worked with our difficult child. I mean really we tried a collaborative approach with him a lot and it never worked very well..... for example. Last year he was kicked out of the house for flagrantly violating all of our rules. A couple of months later he took some very positive steps for himself, did what he needed to do to get his hs diploma etc. So we let him come home but before he came home we said he would have to follow some rules and together we came up with an agreement of the rules. It was back and forth and worked on together!!! It was not long before he was violating all those rules again, flagrantly. We gave him chances, we tried to be understanding.... the thing is he kind of lived by the motto that rules are meant to be broken and for to find ways around. I am sorry but it is not reasonable to have no rules... society has rules. I was not talking about ridiculous strict rules, I am talking about basic rules of not breaknig the law and being responsible about driving OUR car. We got a call one night when he was stopped for driving 60 in a 30 mile hour zone and was a minor transporting alchol. So we are talking once again about flagrant difficult child violation. We are not talking about a easy child mistake. We ended up telling him once again he could not live here under these conditions. The rest is history I have written about elsewhere on the board.... but seriously given that situation how would CPS have helped us? I just don't see how we could have been any more understanding, or collaborative, or looking at he positives than we were. I agree with Hound Dog... there is negative feedback and it is there in society... and I think our son somehow felt that the rest of society would be as understanding as we were.... Uh no it does not work that way. I think it took two weeks in jail to really wake him up to that fact!!!
He is doing somewhat better at the moment, is back in town, is sober I think, is trying to get on his feet. And he has come to us for help.... and he is asking respectfully. We are willing to give him emotional support and some but limited financial help as long as he is taking positive steps and we are seeing the positive steps right now... having a job for one thing. The girlfriend is very nice and good for him we think.
Dash - I totally get what you are saying about money and difficult children.... We have just started my easy child daughter almost 16 with an ATM card. We sat down and talked with her about the money she needs for various things (ie clothes, lunches, time with friends etc.) and we started her on a weekly amount that covers everything.... so now we only pay for household items and food etc. We did this so she will learn to manage money on her own etc. It was definitely a cooperative discussion..... and she is doing great with it. Of course one reason we can do this with her is that difficult child is out of the house.... we never would have done this with difficult child.... too much money to be used for no good!!! We didn't trust him and he is not responsible but now he is going to be forced to learn to manage money the hard way. She is doing very well with it so far.
And I do keep wondering specifically how on earth CPS would have worked with our difficult child. I mean really we tried a collaborative approach with him a lot and it never worked very well..... for example. Last year he was kicked out of the house for flagrantly violating all of our rules. A couple of months later he took some very positive steps for himself, did what he needed to do to get his hs diploma etc. So we let him come home but before he came home we said he would have to follow some rules and together we came up with an agreement of the rules. It was back and forth and worked on together!!! It was not long before he was violating all those rules again, flagrantly. We gave him chances, we tried to be understanding.... the thing is he kind of lived by the motto that rules are meant to be broken and for to find ways around. I am sorry but it is not reasonable to have no rules... society has rules. I was not talking about ridiculous strict rules, I am talking about basic rules of not breaknig the law and being responsible about driving OUR car. We got a call one night when he was stopped for driving 60 in a 30 mile hour zone and was a minor transporting alchol. So we are talking once again about flagrant difficult child violation. We are not talking about a easy child mistake. We ended up telling him once again he could not live here under these conditions. The rest is history I have written about elsewhere on the board.... but seriously given that situation how would CPS have helped us? I just don't see how we could have been any more understanding, or collaborative, or looking at he positives than we were. I agree with Hound Dog... there is negative feedback and it is there in society... and I think our son somehow felt that the rest of society would be as understanding as we were.... Uh no it does not work that way. I think it took two weeks in jail to really wake him up to that fact!!!
He is doing somewhat better at the moment, is back in town, is sober I think, is trying to get on his feet. And he has come to us for help.... and he is asking respectfully. We are willing to give him emotional support and some but limited financial help as long as he is taking positive steps and we are seeing the positive steps right now... having a job for one thing. The girlfriend is very nice and good for him we think.
DammitJanet
Well-Known Member
Star...make excuses? !!!!!
Please! I also want to know how to rationalize with a toddler. I have spent more than my fair share of time with them lately and you talk to them about whatever and by the time you get halfway through one sentence they are talking about the birds they spotted flying by the windows! If you push it, you may get them to echo back what you tell them but that doesnt mean that they will remember it two minutes later. Im doing the happy dance that we just learned the months of the year!
I tried to talk to Keyana the other day about how she makes up stories (quite an inventive imagination on that child) and how it could get some of us in trouble if she told the wrong people some of her stories. Of course, she was interrupting me with questions about going to see some boy and everything else under the sun. I doubt she will have a clue what I told her.
Please! I also want to know how to rationalize with a toddler. I have spent more than my fair share of time with them lately and you talk to them about whatever and by the time you get halfway through one sentence they are talking about the birds they spotted flying by the windows! If you push it, you may get them to echo back what you tell them but that doesnt mean that they will remember it two minutes later. Im doing the happy dance that we just learned the months of the year!
I tried to talk to Keyana the other day about how she makes up stories (quite an inventive imagination on that child) and how it could get some of us in trouble if she told the wrong people some of her stories. Of course, she was interrupting me with questions about going to see some boy and everything else under the sun. I doubt she will have a clue what I told her.
M
mrsammler
Guest
I've kept mum and just listened, but I have to finally say that I see very little merit in Allan's counsel. Not for any real difficult child in teens or post-18, anyway. By that time, the difficult child just continually and heartlessly exploits any attempt at "collaboration" or understanding as a mark of weakness--we all see and know this via constant experience--and seems to respect, if anything, only strength and very firm standards, rules, and especially outcomes. All of this counsel about punishment and rewards being counterproductive--I'm just wildly skeptical. By the teens, most difficult children have become very exploitative of any kind of privilege, assumption of honesty or effort or good will on their part, and to extend any more of it to them is simply feeding the fire and playing the chump. I know without the slightest doubt that this policy would've not only failed miserably with my nephew difficult child but would've made him still worse, if that was possible. I saw his mother try every sort of non-punitive understanding, assumption of his honesty and best effort, etc etc, and I saw him just cynically and exploitatively devour all of those generous impulses and grossly turn them toward his own ends. So colour me very, very skeptical--it all seems VERY pollyanna and counterproductive to me. YMMV, of course...
T
toughlovin
Guest
I think there is a balance between thinking about the positive qualities of our difficult children but at the same time recognizing the reality of the situation. I do think there is a danger in labelling a teen a sociopath or bad kid because I think many teens screw up in major ways but do pull their lives together when they finally get a fully developed brain.... so as a parent I don't want to give up hope that my kid will pull it together and lead a good productive life. on the other hand it is easy and just as dangerous to always believe their story and to just enable them to continue their bad behavior. I have to continually keep in mind my two goals with my son.... don't enable his drug use and bad behavior and be willing to help him if he is helping himself get his life together.
Hi Allan, it's been quite a while since we've seen you.
You remind me very much of my difficult child's psychiatrist who was very well respected, extremely knowledgeable and expert in developmental behavior. The problem is he has been telling my difficult child since she was 9 years old that she needed to find a passion in life and when she did that she would be fine. Ten years later she is living in a sober house having become addicted to alcohol and drugs. I guess she found her passion. He talked so far over her head that I often left there wondering if he even had a clue what was going on with her. No one could argue with his theory but he may as well be talking to a wall because nothing he ever said to difficult child ever made a difference. And me???? Well I just shook my head wishing I could wait until my difficult child found her passion and hoped it was a legal one, knowing full well that he really had no idea how to help her.
As we have found over the years, our difficult child, and I believe most of the difficult child's whose parents are on this board, are so far removed from the average kid who goes through normal developmental problems, that these theories and books on how to parent are not helpful to me.
Nancy
You remind me very much of my difficult child's psychiatrist who was very well respected, extremely knowledgeable and expert in developmental behavior. The problem is he has been telling my difficult child since she was 9 years old that she needed to find a passion in life and when she did that she would be fine. Ten years later she is living in a sober house having become addicted to alcohol and drugs. I guess she found her passion. He talked so far over her head that I often left there wondering if he even had a clue what was going on with her. No one could argue with his theory but he may as well be talking to a wall because nothing he ever said to difficult child ever made a difference. And me???? Well I just shook my head wishing I could wait until my difficult child found her passion and hoped it was a legal one, knowing full well that he really had no idea how to help her.
As we have found over the years, our difficult child, and I believe most of the difficult child's whose parents are on this board, are so far removed from the average kid who goes through normal developmental problems, that these theories and books on how to parent are not helpful to me.
Nancy
DammitJanet
Well-Known Member
We couldnt have sat down with our son and had a problem solving session for anything in the world. He would have thought we had lost our marbles. He would have taken that as one great excuse to manipulate us and whatever lame brained professional told us to try it. Carrots and sticks didnt even work on him, only the stick did. He could never see the worth in working towards a long term goal.
My son only respects consequences for his actions and it took severe consequences. Ones I wasnt able to hand out. It took the real world stepping in to tell him that mom wasnt an idiot who had told him things and that he would get in trouble. It was not easy for me to stand my ground and press charges on my son but it was the right thing to do. I couldnt collaborate with him and/or process the situation anymore. That would be insane.
My son only respects consequences for his actions and it took severe consequences. Ones I wasnt able to hand out. It took the real world stepping in to tell him that mom wasnt an idiot who had told him things and that he would get in trouble. It was not easy for me to stand my ground and press charges on my son but it was the right thing to do. I couldnt collaborate with him and/or process the situation anymore. That would be insane.
Allan-Matlem
Active Member
Quite a lot here so I think I will try and clarify
Before that it is possible to ask Ross Greene a question on his radio program " especially how to go problem solving a specific situation http:livesinthebalance.org - see blogtalk radio - tuesdays
The positive thinking is to help one wears the lenses - that these kids are lacking skills , the problem is not a question of making a kid ' wanna behave ' , so we need to be liberated emotionally to be able to be creative and understand that problems take many sessions to be solved .
Teens and above , respond better to a third party . Both with parents where there is plenty of emotional baggage the challenge is to get the kid talking. A kid does not want to talk is a problem to be solved . It is a process , first talking about general non-emotive stuff etc and then moving on - what future do you see for yourself , a plan etc
One might be able to manage a situation without really solving the underlying problem , but problems are not solved unless the concerns of the parties are taken into account , the skills needed or support is there and there is some type of relationship.
In situations where parents and their property are not safe , the kid should be out of the home and be getting help. Kicking a kid out of the home won't teach him skills he lacks. We need to ask what is getting in his way ?
Brain injury , problems - neuroscience talks about neuroplasticity - the more we use thinking , reflection , engage in the ' process of problem solving , the brain changes
Bank account problem - benefit of the doubt means she is not a criminal but lacks the skills to have an account , could be impulsivity , lack of organization , executive functions etc " the same goes for credit cards . Fines won't teach skills " you tried , at the moment she she is not ready .
Most kids start out in denial , not wanting to deal with the problem . Often the change comes from meeting someone that they connect with , admire in some way and feel understood
Negative feedback - one needs informational feedback how ones behavior is impacting on others and ones future . CPS means putting your concerns on the table and being assertive about it . Having a plan where your concerns are not being met is not Plan B
Toughlove " how would CPS have helped you - you would have got input from your son about his concerns , tried to understand what is getting in his way , you would have made a list of unsolved problems and start working on each one " hard work and messy
Mrsammler - I replied to you before " your relative was not doing cps , could be that she needed help from a third party or treatment center. The rules and consequences might be able to manage the situation when it place but it won't solve problems. When kids feel that there are being controlled and not understood by somebody is who is stronger than them or has more power , they play the game or in their own way they will show how very little control we have. If the rewards and punishments , rules and consequences don't work for the younger kids , for sure older kids will resist even more . The real influence we really have is our relationship. I have been here since 1999 , I have seen a lot here and elsewhere.
Prison system - recidivism " returning prisoners is high not because prison was not tough enough for them but because there is not enough support for them when they reenter society . People need help with skills , life skills, positive environment and support " the threat of prison won't teach them the lacking skills , give them support and help them change from the inside
Before that it is possible to ask Ross Greene a question on his radio program " especially how to go problem solving a specific situation http:livesinthebalance.org - see blogtalk radio - tuesdays
The positive thinking is to help one wears the lenses - that these kids are lacking skills , the problem is not a question of making a kid ' wanna behave ' , so we need to be liberated emotionally to be able to be creative and understand that problems take many sessions to be solved .
Teens and above , respond better to a third party . Both with parents where there is plenty of emotional baggage the challenge is to get the kid talking. A kid does not want to talk is a problem to be solved . It is a process , first talking about general non-emotive stuff etc and then moving on - what future do you see for yourself , a plan etc
One might be able to manage a situation without really solving the underlying problem , but problems are not solved unless the concerns of the parties are taken into account , the skills needed or support is there and there is some type of relationship.
In situations where parents and their property are not safe , the kid should be out of the home and be getting help. Kicking a kid out of the home won't teach him skills he lacks. We need to ask what is getting in his way ?
Brain injury , problems - neuroscience talks about neuroplasticity - the more we use thinking , reflection , engage in the ' process of problem solving , the brain changes
Bank account problem - benefit of the doubt means she is not a criminal but lacks the skills to have an account , could be impulsivity , lack of organization , executive functions etc " the same goes for credit cards . Fines won't teach skills " you tried , at the moment she she is not ready .
Most kids start out in denial , not wanting to deal with the problem . Often the change comes from meeting someone that they connect with , admire in some way and feel understood
Negative feedback - one needs informational feedback how ones behavior is impacting on others and ones future . CPS means putting your concerns on the table and being assertive about it . Having a plan where your concerns are not being met is not Plan B
Toughlove " how would CPS have helped you - you would have got input from your son about his concerns , tried to understand what is getting in his way , you would have made a list of unsolved problems and start working on each one " hard work and messy
Mrsammler - I replied to you before " your relative was not doing cps , could be that she needed help from a third party or treatment center. The rules and consequences might be able to manage the situation when it place but it won't solve problems. When kids feel that there are being controlled and not understood by somebody is who is stronger than them or has more power , they play the game or in their own way they will show how very little control we have. If the rewards and punishments , rules and consequences don't work for the younger kids , for sure older kids will resist even more . The real influence we really have is our relationship. I have been here since 1999 , I have seen a lot here and elsewhere.
Prison system - recidivism " returning prisoners is high not because prison was not tough enough for them but because there is not enough support for them when they reenter society . People need help with skills , life skills, positive environment and support " the threat of prison won't teach them the lacking skills , give them support and help them change from the inside
Allan-Matlem
Active Member
Nancy ,
Talking does not help , because we or the therapists do the talking - kids have to do the talking and we listen
Allan
Talking does not help , because we or the therapists do the talking - kids have to do the talking and we listen
Allan
Allan-Matlem
Active Member
Succees ?,
Kid needs a mentor , positive peers ( most kids get back into the wrong crowd ?), acquiring of skills
Allan
Kid needs a mentor , positive peers ( most kids get back into the wrong crowd ?), acquiring of skills
Allan
Allan, please remember, these are not "kids" we are talking about in this forum. Our children are adults, most with untreated mental illnesses and/or untreated addictions, who have chosen not to participate in any kind of treatment. I just don't think you're getting that picture. The closest you've come is this:
Out of the home, yes. Although many of us have grown children living with us, all of our "kids" *should* be out of the home, they are adults! Getting help, no. That is the point. What's getting in their way? Their inability to admit they have a problem, their refusal to seek help, and many times, the enabling by others, that allows them to continue down their destructive path.
Out of the home, yes. Although many of us have grown children living with us, all of our "kids" *should* be out of the home, they are adults! Getting help, no. That is the point. What's getting in their way? Their inability to admit they have a problem, their refusal to seek help, and many times, the enabling by others, that allows them to continue down their destructive path.
T
toughlovin
Guest
OK some of what you say makes sense..... sounds like though what you are really saying is that at this point you need a third party such as a therapist to help do the problem solving with you. I agree with that. Still means though that the young adult has to agree to do this work with you.... and therein lies the problem. If they are not willing you can't really get anywhere.
You can't work on problems or skills without their willingness and participation!!! And by this point the relationship may not be at a place to do this work.
At the point my son came back home he was not willing to do this really... and I am not sure he is really willing to do it now with us.
My hope is that the therapy he got while in rehab really helped him enough to start solving his own issues and taught him some skills.... I don't think kicking a kid to the curb, or going to prison teaches them the skills BUT it might get them to the point that they are willing to do the work to learn the skills. I know for me it is at that point where I can then offer support.
I think the problem Allan is you make it all sound so easy, if we just followed CPS the issues would be resolved.. I have seen no acknowledgement that you need cooperation from the young adult and that until you get that it won't work. It sounds like a good process for therapy but as a parent it feels pretty impractical and impossible with a young adult in the real world. But if the young adult is refusting therapy, feels that everything is fine if you would just get off their back, and by the way smoking pot relaxes me and so is good for me.... where is the starting point with that?
You can't work on problems or skills without their willingness and participation!!! And by this point the relationship may not be at a place to do this work.
At the point my son came back home he was not willing to do this really... and I am not sure he is really willing to do it now with us.
My hope is that the therapy he got while in rehab really helped him enough to start solving his own issues and taught him some skills.... I don't think kicking a kid to the curb, or going to prison teaches them the skills BUT it might get them to the point that they are willing to do the work to learn the skills. I know for me it is at that point where I can then offer support.
I think the problem Allan is you make it all sound so easy, if we just followed CPS the issues would be resolved.. I have seen no acknowledgement that you need cooperation from the young adult and that until you get that it won't work. It sounds like a good process for therapy but as a parent it feels pretty impractical and impossible with a young adult in the real world. But if the young adult is refusting therapy, feels that everything is fine if you would just get off their back, and by the way smoking pot relaxes me and so is good for me.... where is the starting point with that?
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