Punishment from the school

[SuZir]

But I also understand that the schools have a reputation to defend. I understand that they very often don't know what would work. The problem is that children generally adjust very well even to poor condition. We can send them to the juvie. They hate it, but they adjust and become street smart. We can put them in a Residential Treatment Center (RTC) marketed very strict. They adjust and play the program and are out all too soon with a degree in manipulation.

This is very true and that is my problem with harsh consequences. By the way, we don't really have juvies at all. One in the whole country and there are less than 100 kids in it. You have to kill, maim or rape someone to end up there. Everything else is handled differently (we do have Residential Treatment Center (RTC)-type places though.) The reason for this is not that our kids would be much better than yours. They are not. But studies have shown that if the kid is sentenced to juvie or dealt with lesser punishments for same crime, the prospects for a kid are hugely different. Those sent to juvie have very high probability to end up adult prisons some day and never to be good tax payers. Those given lesser punishments are much less likely to go to prison and much more likely to have a job and living normal life when adult. Prisons are incredibly expensive, we rather put that money to something else. We still don't have more crime than you (in fact less.) Harsh punishments simply aren't that effective.

And they are not effective with kids either. As you said, kids are incredibly good in adjusting, all people are, but kids especially. When you take something important away from them, it stings, but only for a short while. In few weeks they are all but forgotten that. And if you are taking away things that are positive influences in their lives, you only end up with a kid, that has less positive influences and more negative influences they are living with.

My difficult child has always has lots of negatives but also many positives. Those positives are the things that keep his head above the surface. If we would had taken them away long ago, because he didn't earn them, we would now have a new adult with nothing going for him but all his problems and negatives still there. In our desperation we did try that once. We and school were determined to make the end of his truancy.

We took him off from all his sports, music and other fun things till he would be going school regularly. School gave him only fails as grades and didn't even give his exams back (there has never been an exam he hadn't aced, all the time he was well above the academic goals for him even with the truancy.) He was very strictly grounded (mostly in his room, no tv, no phone, no computer, no toys, no books, nothing), had to do lots of chores, we even tried spanking (till the point of real abuse and even over that point unfortunately.) He only got worse. He run away (was at least twice looked by the police and often by us and our whole family and neighbours), he run away from school, even with the one-on-one aide (difficult child was quick on his feet, aide wasn't), was very disruptive at school when he was there, very defiant and unhappy at home, had some self-harming behaviours and in the other words everything was going he** in the handbasket. Luckily (oh the irony) something happened when husband was again whipping difficult child and he got really hurt (needing a doctor right away-hurt) and that really opened our eyes. We were really screwing our kids life by trying to discipline a problem behaviour out of him. We were taking away everything that was going for him in the hopes we could stop one problem behaviour (and we certainly would had been left with several others.) So we simply turned away from that route. And while the truancy issue never really got solved (it got little better later and he was able to work around it) and we have certainly have more bad behaviours from him later, I'm very happy we changed our minds and took the other route. We let him keep the good things in his life, things that had positive influence on him even if he never really earned them. They still helped him.

The system there kids are allowed to stay in their teams, clubs, choirs etc. and only not let to compete as a punishment is much better. Kids get to keep the positive influence and get the sting only from not being allowed to compete. Of course those too loose the effect if the punishments are too long. But expelling kids from their teams and clubs is very unlikely to lead to anything good for those kids. Of course you can argue, that it scares others. But again studies shows that harsh punishments have very little influence to behaviour, it is more important how likely person thinks (s)he will be caught. And with the teens and drinking etc (that everyone is doing, if you ask kids) they simply don't think they will be caught. So punishment looses most of its scare effect.

 

[BusynMember]

Ok going to defend my country here.

We are huge. The fact is there are a lot of children who are so dangerous they can't live at home or they will actually hurt people, let alone live in society at large. No juvie? Then where?

I am going to make believe that Suzir lives in, say, Norway, a small country of mostly the same culture. I'm sure they don't have our problems, or the magnitude of our problems. The two countries most certainly are going to have to deal with problems differently.

Also, I'll be devil's advocate here. difficult children and PCs are sort of from two different worlds. Should our PCs be forced to be influenced by the difficult children? It goes two ways.

I raised a difficult child who did drugs. She was in trouble all the time. I don't really know the answer. In her case, she wasn't interested in school activities so there was nothing to motivate her to maybe try to do better. If there was? I don't know how I'd feel.

But in the US, we do have children who are criminals. I lived with one. He was the kid who had sex with my daughter and stole and killed animals and was a danger to everyone he met. He was 13. What in the world do you do with that? I feel we are obligated to protect other kids from him. He did get mental health care while he was in a sort of criminal residential and it didn't work...he was too far gone. But it would have been worse, having him out on the streets to perp on other children.

Obviously underage drinking is not in the same category as what he did, but kids don't go to RTCs just for that . Ok, off my soapbox!

 

[Lucedaleblessed]

I know that there are many countries out there who deals with difficult child's in very different way. In Singapore they get the can and they get it so they will have lasting scars the rest of their lives on their behinds. A month in jail equals one lash I have been told from a friend living there so they put some force into it. I remember years back that a difficult child from here got 4 lashes. A little research told me that he didn't change his behavior as an adult so harsh corporal punishment is not a solution.

I guess every culture must do what their culture tell them dealing with difficult child's. I will not judge.

What do upsets me is however the general trend that drug use and general difficult child behavior among celebrities are dealt with a very soft hand. The very role models our children watch Television, Youtube etc. act like difficult child's and in a double income society they are given too much space showing our children how to act when you make it to the top. It is so on a worldwide basis. It is just as bad abroad as here. I talked with my husband how we have changed maybe too much to be good rolemodels for our daughter. I like wine but is have been months since I had a glass because we don't want to have alcohol in our house with her home alone after school where she could arrange for a party with some friends and suddenly we would be held responsible. But regardless how much we have changed, the other rolemodels entertain her every afternoon, so do it matter?

I want my life back and in a couple of months we maybe will get it if she goes. Sometime I am that close to let her pick whatever she wants when she leaves.

 

[DaisyFace]

Getting back a bit on topic -

I think some of the strictness in sports and school activities has to do with money. There are SO MANY kids who deserve to be on the team, get a shot at the scholarship - but there just isn't space or funding for them all. When there are several candidates who are equally qualified, but only one space - teachers, coaches, scouts - have to make tough decisions. And for those who don't make the cut - that's it.

This is why we expect exemplary behavior from those on the team. It's a priviledge to be on the team. If one cannot handle the responsibilities, there are a dozen others waiting in the wings to take their spot.

 

[SuZir]

I think some of the strictness in sports and school activities has to do with money. There are SO MANY kids who deserve to be on the team, get a shot at the scholarship - but there just isn't space or funding for them all. When there are several candidates who are equally qualified, but only one space - teachers, coaches, scouts - have to make tough decisions. And for those who don't make the cut - that's it.

This is why we expect exemplary behavior from those on the team. It's a priviledge to be on the team. If one cannot handle the responsibilities, there are a dozen others waiting in the wings to take their spot.

I understand that scholarships are limited and kids compete from them. But I also think that if places in extracurricular that in itself has positive influence to kids are fewer than kids wanting to participate, then there are not enough places and there should be more. I don't think that an opportunity to do sport or music or art should be a privilege. In fact especially sports are extremely important for raising healthy adults. Regular exercise is extremely important to person's health and future ability and every kid should have a chance to participate in sports t5hey like in their own level.

We don't have school sports. School has PE class, but all the sports are done outside school in clubs. And almost any sport can be done in many different levels. Highest levels are competitive and more kids want to be there than possible. But just because you don't get a place in highest level basketball team in your club to your age doesn't mean you can't play basketball. Either in lower level teams in your club or in other club with lower level teams. You still will have an experience. Same with scouts, if they have more kids who want in than they have places, they create new groups to have more places etc.

These hobbies have positive influence to kids, especially in their teens and it is senseless to give those positive influences only to best in that activity. My kids have always been highest level teams in their main sports for their age. Still if we think for example easy child's team. It is one of the best teams in whole country (second best currently if I remember correctly) in his age in this country. Still only minority of the boys in the team will be pro athletes for a day, even fewer three years or more, maybe one or two over ten years. For all the other boys it is just a hobby and it's importance is in how it influences them. Does it teach them active lifestyle, to be a good friend and team mate, have a good work ethic etc? Those are the important things in junior sports (and other extracurriculars.) You don't have to be a good player or musician or anything to benefit from those lessons and that is why all the kids should have a right to participate to sports and other extracurriculars they enjoy and that have positive influence on them.

My sons' played instruments till they were 15 and had to make choices how to use their time and concentrate to certain hobbies. They will never be professional musicians, it is unlikely their life will ever depend of their musical skills. But those years playing were certainly not for naught. They learned a lot of skills they will need when they grow up. And they learned appreciation and enjoyment for music. Just because they were not world class talent doesn't mean they were not deserving of those good things music brought to their lives.

 

[Kathy813]

And almost any sport can be done in many different levels. Highest levels are competitive and more kids want to be there than possible. But just because you don't get a place in highest level basketball team in your club to your age doesn't mean you can't play basketball. Either in lower level teams in your club or in other club with lower level teams. You still will have an experience. Same with scouts, if they have more kids who want in than they have places, they create new groups to have more places etc.

What makes you think that things are different here? We have rec teams through our parks and rec system that just play for fun and everyone gets to play and independent travel teams that play at a higher competitive level.

In fact, there are competitive cheer teams as an alternative to school teams. dstc_99's daughter or the other girls that get kicked off the school team could join a competitive cheer team. In fact, those teams usually compete at a much higher level than school teams and there would be a greater chance at getting a scholarship being on those teams than a school team.

My easy child was a softball star and played on a very high level competitive travel team. Everyone knew that the real chance for scholarships came from the travel ball tournaments that they played in. She also played on her high school team but that was more for fun and wanting to participate in a school activity.

To tell you the truth, I don't know what the penalty is at my school for being caught at a party where alcohol is being served. I do know that on my easy child's team, there was a difficult child who showed up at a restaurant where the team had gone to eat after a game (just girls . . . no coaches) where the difficult child showed up clearly drunk.

The girls on the team went to the coach the next day and wanted her thrown off the team. They said that the fact that she had showed up in her softball uniform drunk was a reflection of them as a team and they didn't like it. The coach did not throw the girl off the team. He told them that "sometimes the player needs us more than we need them." easy child didn't like it but she understood that the coach was hoping that the team would be a good influence on the girl.

Sadly, it didn't work out that way. She continued down the difficult child path of drugs and alcohol.

~Kathy

 

[BusynMember]

There are places to play all levels of sports in the communities. You don't have to play in school or you're doomed. Sonic played sports his entire school years in an alternative setting because he never would have made the school team. You can cheer lead in other leagues too. You can do any activity you like outside of school. But you get the most attention from your peers if you play on school teams and the highest level players, for those with talent who are competitive, are at school. That does not mean that a lesser athlete, however, can not compete in a league. If you want to go elite, then the kids all know the athletic code. I asked my daughter, the athlete, about this situation and she shrugged and said, "The kids know the rules." But...that does not mean that this girl can not compete in another cheer league. It is a misconception that sports are only offered at school. Heck, once they graduate, there are tons of adult leagues. You never have to quit doing sports here.

One of my boys did not like the idea of school teams. He would only play in recreational leagues, not in school. He was an excellent athlete too. It's up to the parents and the kids to find the right fits. Other activities, such as drama and art are also offered in the community if the kid doesn't want to do them in school. I agree with you, Suzir, that sports and other activities should be available to anyone who wants to do them, and they are.

 

[SuZir]

That is good to hear. I assumed your sports were more school based (except the highest level in some sports, in the sports I know the best, the best US juniors are more often playing for club teams or certain boarding school teams than playing for their local High School teams) but it is good to know that kids have options. I happen to think sports, music etc. give very valuable experiences for kids and help especially the more challenging kids. Hopefully kids kicked out from school teams are helped to find a new teams there they can continue their sport in appropriate level.

Around here kids are not easily kicked out from teams, they are disciplined during practises, suspended from games or even suspended from practises for short times, but they have to really screw up to get themselves kicked. Only kid in my sons' times in different sport teams (and not only in their teams but all the teams of those club), there has been only one case kid was kicked out; my difficult child (makes me so proud... ) There has been cases of teen drinking, even drinking during the tournaments and many other misbehaviours but those have been handled with lesser punishments. Most of the offending kids have turned out just fine. With my difficult child the jury is still out.

 

[BusynMember]

The elite players who will go professional do that mostly from college here. But most kids, even great athletes, do not make it professionally because there is way too much competition as we are such a big country. No way will every good or even great athlete make the pros and the kids know this.

I actually don't know any kids who go to boarding schools...that is not done here often. It is not even an option financially for most of us. Club teams can help, but the actual scholarships are often right from high school. It's interesting to hear about what other country's folks think of us. It is usually wrong. But our pro athletes are almost always recruited out of colleges.

At any rate, the idea of a code of conduct is because it is considered a privilege to play for, say, the WIAA, which is our state's elite conference, and if you want to represent this conference, you have to stick to their rules. But you can find other places to play sports or do drama or play chess or do anything you want to do. We have many, many options.

 

[SuZir]

The elite players who will go professional do that mostly from college here. But most kids, even great athletes, do not make it professionally because there is way too much competition as we are such a big country. No way will every good or even great athlete make the pros and the kids know this.

I actually don't know any kids who go to boarding schools...that is not done here often. It is not even an option financially for most of us. Club teams can help, but the actual scholarships are often right from high school. It's interesting to hear about what other country's folks think of us. It is usually wrong. But our pro athletes are almost always recruited out of colleges.

Depends from the sport. College route is true in mainly American sports, but not in all, especially smaller or more internationally popular ones.

Pro sports are always highly competitive, not only in USA, international sports more so, because you don't compete against people from your own country, you compete against the players all over the globe. USA sports are somewhat unique because your most popular sports are not played seriously in that many other places. American football and baseball in very few other countries, basketball of course is played more commonly but isn't that popular outside both Americas, few southern European countries (and not that popular even there at least compared to other sports) and Lithuania and some other old Soviet countries.

Of course we too have some sports that are only popular locally or in few countries or areas. In fact if I would tell some of my kids' sports you would be totally flabbergasted, never heard about that kind of sports, and still they are popular here and even have pro leagues. Some of these sports are also in Olympics.

 

[BusynMember]

Oh, ok. You're talking about Europe. That's probably true, but not in our own sports. Not going to get into a "our sports are better than your sports" rant, but I personally like the sports we favor much better and really don't care what sports others watch and/or play. At any rate, we're getting too far off topic, so I'm done with this thread