Some of what the Pittsburgh terror brings up for me

Lil

Well-Known Member
On the gangstalking stuff...the first 11 minutes of this is like a textbook description of the progression of a paranoid delusion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dp9eCoJkC0c

There are thousands of people following this stuff. It's sad.

Sorry...I'll stop now and let everyone get back to real issues. I was just kind of taken aback by this ... stuff.
 
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AppleCori

Well-Known Member
I knew someone a long time ago who believed in a flat earth. She believed in the ‘canopy theory’, but I think hers was more religiously based, not mental illness.

The difference, I think, is the overwhelming obsession. She never mentioned the beliefs to me, and I only know because her daughter talked about it with my daughter. It was a belief but it didn’t dominate her life on a daily basis.

So, yeah, I think people can have crazy beliefs and not have a mental illness. But, I think a person that escalates into criminal activity based on those beliefs very likely has a mental illness.

Look up the Florida State University library shooting from 2014. The shooter has a bunch of videos on YouTube that are still up (I don’t want to publicly divulge his name on this forum) and the things he says are very troubling.
 

Tanya M

Living with an attitude of gratitude
Staff member
Copa, my father was Jewish my mother Christian. I was raised in both faiths. I remember as a kid my classmates were jealous because we got Chanukah and Christmas presents.
We did not have a Temple in the town I grew up in but when we would visit my grandmother or cousins we would go.
Some of my fathers family escaped from Poland while others were not as lucky. I remember watching the movie Schindler's List with my dad and him quietly crying.
I cherish my Hebraic roots and when I saw the news about the shooting it broke my heart. Anytime I see a news report of a shooting it breaks my heart. It's just so senseless. As long as people hold evil in their hearts, these types of heinous acts will continue.
My son can also get caught up in conspiracy theories and has said that organized religion is a waste of time but he believes that there are many government cover ups.
I have no doubt that there probably are cover ups but just not sure it's to the extent of what my son believes. My son has told me he's a humanist and a sovereign citizen.
For whatever reason my son holds onto "his theories" is beyond me, I do however wonder if it's easier for him to embrace those ideas rather than to have faith in God, for when you acknowledge something greater than yourself it leaves you vulnerable to submit to that authority and my son will not submit to anyone's authority unless it's forced upon him, such as prison. My son can be very cold which I have often wondered if he's capable of empathy at all. I know my son does not respect my humanity or my faith, he thinks these things make me weak.

So. My question is this: How do I hold my son, who holds these beliefs?

A part of me is recoiling against him. And I do not want him to hurt me emotionally anymore. And I am afraid of this. I do not want to push him away. He is vulnerable. And yet, I am too. If he will not accept and respect my humanity how do I stay in relation with him?

I don't think there is an easy answer to this other than love. I absolutely cannot stand the way my son is, his thought processes or his beliefs but I love him. For me I try to keep it simple in that I don't like my son but I love my son. He is my child. I know that he and I will never have a close loving relationship and I have come to accept that. We are just too different from each other.

Shalom my dear Copa.
 

AppleCori

Well-Known Member
Oh, and if you look at gangstalking videos, read some of the comments. I thought at first that everyone would tell the person to get help, but most are total believers.
 

Lil

Well-Known Member
I don't think there is an easy answer to this other than love. I absolutely cannot stand the way my son is, his thought processes or his beliefs but I love him. For me I try to keep it simple in that I don't like my son but I love my son. He is my child. I know that he and I will never have a close loving relationship and I have come to accept that. We are just too different from each other.

This is well said. I wanted a much closer relationship with my son than I have. I don't approve of a lot of the things he does or agree with some of the things he thinks. But I love him and I accept that this is how it is. God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change...

Acceptance is the first step to peace of mind.

Oh, and if you look at gangstalking videos, read some of the comments. I thought at first that everyone would tell the person to get help, but most are total believers.

Yes...and those who suggest it's paranoia or mental illness get attacked as trolls.

There's apparently two different types of beliefs, one is just some nefarious plot that may be some awful social experiment, etc. and the other has a religious aspect. Wow.
 
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BusynMember

Well-Known Member
Tanya, you and I...worried about if our sons have empathy.

Also to all, it is interesting that such a large portion of our more troubled adult children are more apt to believe these insane conspiracy theories. I think it has to do with their intense dislike/mistrust of rules and anyone who is in charge of them in any way. Ditto for the many many troubled adult kids who are unwilling to even consider that there msy be a power greater than them. One thing I have noticed through my years here is that troubled adults tend to have a terror of not being in total control of their lives. Of course, nobody is. You break the law, you pay the price. We are all accountable.....at least we tiny peons are. I might sound like a conspiracy theorist here but I do think if you are in government in many situations you are above the law. But our kids are peons, like we are.

My well behaved kids are not into this crazy conspiracy stuff. Bart isnt either but he does tend to think in an old fashion and unhelpful way... that men are being picked on in society now and stuff like that and has a wish that marriage be like it once was when it was for life even if the people were unhappy. He does not have a high opinion of women at all which is why I hope no woman ever stays with him.

Interesting discussion!
 

Estherfromjerusalem

Well-Known Member
This is a fascinating post. You can imagine that the whole thing is being very thoroughly covered by the media here in Israel. All of the people here in Israel identify 100 per cent. Whenever a tragedy occurs more or less anywhere in the world, Israel sends out teams to help with natural disasters such as earthquakes. I think even just last month or two months ago Israeli teams flew to the US to help with the aftermath of the floods and tornados. But there is one aspect that none of you is mentioning. One word, and it is so pregnant with meaning that I suppose people are wary of using it. But I will do so: Antisemitism. Antisemitism is as old as the hills. Professor Robert Wistrich, who was a world expert on antisemitism and with whom I worked very closely typing up his handwritten manuscripts, called antisemitism "the longest hatred." The man who committed this despicable crime in Pittsburgh just wanted to kill Jews. That was his aim. That was what he shouted as he rampaged through the synagogue, shooting. He shouted "All Jews must die." Do you know that one of the victims was a 97-year-old lady who was a Holocaust survivor? Isn't that disgusting?! There are no words.

I think I had better stop here, before I get too emotional and before I let my fingers run away with themselves on the keyboard. It's been a long time since I wrote here. But I come and "visit" and look every single day. I still love this place, and all the people on it.

Love, Esther
 

Lil

Well-Known Member
Do you know that one of the victims was a 97-year-old lady who was a Holocaust survivor? Isn't that disgusting?! There are no words.

I had wondered, given her age. Yes. It is disgusting and so very sad; to have survived that horror only to die because of the same irrational hatred. I thought the same of the married couple. Married in that very synagogue...began their lives together there and ended there as well, in what I'm sure was a place full of happy memories. There are no words.

I learned from the news that the hate crime of "obstructing the free exercise of religion" carries the death penalty. I had no idea. Seems murder should be enough to guarantee that in this case, but there is no doubt...this was a hate crime.

We love hearing from you Esther.
 
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Tanya M

Living with an attitude of gratitude
Staff member
Do you know that one of the victims was a 97-year-old lady who was a Holocaust survivor?
There are some that do not even believe the Holocaust happened.
What's that old saying - if you don't learn from history you will be condemned to repeat it.
Scary times we are living in.
 

Elsi

Well-Known Member
But there is one aspect that none of you is mentioning. One word, and it is so pregnant with meaning that I suppose people are wary of using it. But I will do so: Antisemitism.

You are absolutely correct, and we all need to be using that word and calling out antisemitism when we see it. It’s heartbreaking to read the stories of the victims. And enraging to know how much more hate and bigotry is still out there in the world.
 

Tired out

Well-Known Member
The people there no matter how poor use cellphones.
That is amazing! I had no idea. Cell phones are so expensive I think of them as a luxury.
I am stunned by the hatred some people exhibit. I can't give them a pass with stating mental illness. They knowingly bought guns, loaded them and aimed them. Gunning down people in a place of worship, this isn't the 1st time it has happened. Last November 26 were killed in a Baptist church in Texas, 9 killed in S Carolina church shooting .
We know the movie theater, mall, schools and the grocery store aren't safe. Churches and synagogues are targets. What's next? Going into the day-hab where the disabled are and shooting that up? or a nursing home? This is so sickening.
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
One word, and it is so pregnant with meaning that I suppose people are wary of using it. But I will do so: Antisemitism.
Dear Esther. I did not know of Professor Wistrich's work and just now read the entry about him on Wikipedia and read an article about anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism. Thank you. (On CNN there is somebody right now from the Anti-Defamation League talking about anti-Semitism and calling it "the oldest hatred.")

The United States had three acts of terror last week: This one, Florida and two African Americans were killed in a supermarket after the killer tried to enter a church but could not because the door was locked. These men that perpetrated these anti-Semitic, racist, xenophobic, violent acts were triggered and mobilized by hate speech which is legitimizing acting out and also a deep anxiety and anger that many feel because of economic disenfranchisement and a sense of having lost their place, without a way to regain it. Powerful interests in this society seem to want to manipulate this anger and fear and anxiety to target scapegoats, as a way to channel this away from questioning economic inequalities and commonalities between people. How different is this from 1930's Germany?

There are those that see a great welling up in this society and internationally of common grief and broken-heartedness right now. Who knows? Maybe the very existence of the mass media, that fanned this social chasm, will help to heal it. Who could know?

There is hate. But there is also love.
Cell phones are so expensive I think of them as a luxury.
We consider cellphones like designer watches, status symbols but nowadays the technology is cheap. I live in a poor city. There are stores where I can go and buy cell phones for less than $10. I think phones are very cheap in poor countries because the people don't have the money to pay much. The telecommunications companies want the subscribers so they discount heavily the technology. It's like cheap computer printers now for $19.99, almost giving them away so we buy the ink for $30.
 
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Copabanana

Well-Known Member
I never would have even considered that they sell, practically give them away to get the user.
Dear Tired: I think so much of what we buy in the store has prices completely unrelated to the cost to produce it. The prices are tied not to what are production and transportation and marketing costs, but to what the consumer can pay.

But oftentimes the opposite is true. Producers dump merchandise in order to keep prices high. It's crazy. They would rather give the stuff away, than dilute prices across the board. I buy a lot of my vegetables at the dollar store. This stuff is dumped there. If I go to the regular market what I buy for $1 is $4 to even $6. Same stuff. They dump produce at the dollar store in order to keep prices artificially high.

Even stores like Costco and Walmart tie their prices to the demographics of the communities in which they are located. If you ever shop on Walmart online they will not tell you the price of the products in the store. Why? Because they are different at different Walmarts. Richer communities have higher prices. I have seen this with my own eyes.

A few months ago I needed a postal scale (to try to weigh my sick cat--It did not work. Surprise. Surprise.) I looked online and saw there was one at the local office products store (a big chain like Office Depot.) The online price was $35. At the store it was $75. I was horrified.

How many times had I just bought an item in the store without price checking? I told the cashier and the manager gave me the online price. I asked: "what percent of the customers ask the online price, or ask for a discount?" He said: "Virtually nobody. They just pay the price."

I know I have veered off the topic, but this really galls me.
 
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Copabanana

Well-Known Member
Antisemitism is as old as the hills.
I was reading that antisemitism dates back to Greco-Roman times. I read that the resentment stems from he reaction to Jews' insistence in remaining apart and together. In the USA I think we are afraid to speak up about anti-Semitism. I think we feel that if we do not name it, it will not exist and will not hurt us. So much for that strategy. I will be back later because I want to put in a little description of Freud's views about anti-Semitism before he died (and after he fled to English from the Nazis.) Thank you again, Esther. I am happy when you post. (My mother's name was Esther.)
 

Elsi

Well-Known Member
I was reading that antisemitism dates back to Greco-Roman times. I read that the resentment stems from he reaction to Jews' insistence in remaining apart and together.

Yes, sadly. Christianity was born in the cradle of Jewish oppression by the Roman Empire.

From what I have read, the conspiracy theories we see today - this belief that there is a global cabal (yes I’m aware of the roots of that word) of powerful Jews running everything behind the scenes - has roots that go back to the Middle Ages. At that time Jewish people tended to be more educated and sophisticated than their Christian neighbors. They also were the moneylenders, because the Christian Church at that time taught that Christians were not allowed to lend money or charge interest (known as usury - we use that term now to mean predatory or unreasonable interest but back then it meant any interest). But moneylending is essential to support a business and trade class, so you had banks emerging run by Jewish people who, as you pointed out, also tended to live apart and maintain their own traditions. You can draw a direct line from here to the antisemitic Shakespeare character of Shylock and down to the hateful cartoons and caricatures being shared on social media today.

You also had the church directly teaching terrible things about the Jewish people in the Middle Ages. Unfortunately that hasn’t entirely stopped in some corners even now, though it’s not as blatant. I remember hearing in church as a child that the Jewish people could not be saved, because they had the first chance to come to Christ when he was here, and those who are still Jewish today are descendants of the people who rejected that chance. This was conveyed with an air of profound sadness rather than hatred, but wow, what a message. I’ve also heard echos in some evangelical circles of blaming the Jewish people for the killing of Christ (without seemingly much understanding that Jesus himself was Jewish). (Other evangelicals seem to have more understanding of their Jewish roots and reverence for the Jewish people as the first chosen ones of God. It’s a complicated relationship between Christianity and Judaism here, I think.)

This was among many reasons I rejected the church of my childhood. It didn’t make logical or moral sense to me even then. But I saw adults around me accept this reasoning without any critical thought, just a knowing nod.

Sadly, these historical echoes are still driving antisemitic hatred today.

In the USA I think we are afraid to speak up about anti-Semitism. I think we feel that if we do not name it, it will not exist and will not hurt us

I think there is a lot to this. I also think we have so MANY problems right now with hate crimes of all kinds. Anti-Muslim sentiment. Racism against black people especially, but also Hispanics and other non-white people. I think many of us feel so overwhelmed by all of it it’s getting hard to name and point to the roots of each individual incident. As you point out, this was not even our only hate crime this week. There have been so many over the past year it’s hard to react to each one. But we can’t let ourselves become numb. We have to remember to keep calling out and naming the evils. We have to shine a light on them, because they thrive in the darkness.
 
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Elsi

Well-Known Member
A few months ago I needed a postal scale (to try to weigh my sick cat--It did not work. Surprise. Surprise.

Side note - step on the scale with your cat, note the weight, put the cat down and weight yourself again. Subtract to get the cat’s weight. If you have a scale that gives you tenths of a pound, it should be close enough.

Second side note:
I can also confirm what you’re saying about cell phones internationally. They are considered a necessity since they don’t have other means of getting phone or internet service. Years ago, before I even had my own cell phone, we had the chance to visit Romania. In the rural areas people still lived a traditional peasant life - horse carts rather than cars, no indoor plumbing, etc. But they had cell phones. Land lines never made it out to the rural mountain areas, so they just leapfrogged right over that technology and went right to cell. This is true in many parts of Africa too.
 

Elsi

Well-Known Member
(And I apologize if my history lesson is telling you things you’re already well aware of. I read, analyze and contextualize things to try to make sense of them. Of course there is nothing that excuses hate, intolerance or violence. But maybe if we can understand the roots we can be more aware of them, and work to stamp them out where we recognize them.)
 
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