Some of what the Pittsburgh terror brings up for me

[BusynMember]

I was aware that things like cell phones cost less to nothing in poorer countries. You can also buy very cheap throw away cell phones in the U.S. which is why some very poor people have one. I got a super cheapie at Walmart in St. Louis once when my own cell phone broke there. I was shocked at how cheap they are. Just becsuse people have cell phones doent mean they are IPhones or fancy. That is common sense.

This resurgence of prejudice in our country against everyone who is not a white Christian is what fueled me to stop watching the news. Be it Jews,Muslims African Americans, illegal Mexicans who come here for a better life (no anger from me about this) or anyone I havent thought of, I feel cleaner if I refuse to listen to it. This bigotry has become almost mainstream/accepted by many as it was in Germany in WWII. The U.S. did not want to take in the Jews then and was late to get involved in the war. Lets not forget other U.S. WWII victims, the American Japanese who were locked in CAMPS! CAMPS! In the land of the free. I have read up on some on this. All Asians could be targeted!

I simply have no stomach for the new brand of talking news heads and poliicians who decide who is a "good" person and who is "our enemy" based on race, ethnicity, religion, no religion, disability etc.

America first, the motto, turns my stomach. Are we even talking about ALL Americans???

People first to me. If not, then the marginal deranged haters do things like Pittsburgh!
The saddest part? There are others that feel it was legitimate. That Jews dont matter. That only people who look and worship like
them matter. There is even fighting amongst different Christian churches.

Why does everyone have to feel superior?

If we understand, many dont WANT to understand nor stop it. No news for me.

Excuse me while i throw up....

 

[Lil]

I got a super cheapie at Walmart in St. Louis once when my own cell phone broke there. I was shocked at how cheap they are. Just becsuse people have cell phones doent mean they are IPhones or fancy. That is common sense.

Most US carriers have free phones. Even the low-cost carriers like Cricket offer free phones. They're usually very simple, talk and text, but they even have very low cost smart phones.

The saddest part? There are others that feel it was legitimate. That Jews dont matter. That only people who look and worship like
them matter. There is even fighting amongst different Christian churches.

Why does everyone have to feel superior?

I agree, it sickens me. At church Sunday, we prayed for the victims of that awful crime, and for all victims of prejudice. At the time, I guess it never entered my mind at that time that other "Christian" churches would be considering it anything but a horror. They are NOT following Christ.

I read a quote today that I liked, they said Christians and Jews are family - like cousins, different fathers, but the same grandpa. I like that.

I'm so very, very tired of all the hate in this country. I find it so hard to even go on Facebook to see what my friends are doing, because the politics make me sick. The left calls the right violent racists and the right calls the left violent thugs and round and round we go with accusations and name calling and...

I'm right there with you SWOT.

 

[Tanya M]

I also think we have so MANY problems right now with hate crimes of all kinds. Anti-Muslim sentiment. Racism against black people especially, but also Hispanics and other non-white people.

Why does everyone have to feel superior?

This to me is the simplest form of understanding all the hatred. When one puts themselves above others they now have a skewed sense of self and entitlement. Everyone one on this planet is of the human race. Only if it really was that simple. I take a lesson from what I have learned in dealing with my son. I do not like the way he chooses to live his life, nor do I agree with his ideology but I accept him for who he is. It is not my place to "change" him. It's okay to agree to disagree but I think people have forgotten that. Anymore it seams that some people, not all, have blinders on and can only see their view on life, religion, politics, etc.... If you do not agree with them then you are just wrong and somehow beneath them. They will berate you for what you believe. The concept of being decent and kind escapes far too many. Of course this is nothing new and has been going on for thousands of years. Evil is real and when people allow evil to live in their hearts nothing good will come from them.
How wonderful it would be if people would celebrate each others differences and possibly learn something from them. One reason my husband and I love to travel is so that we can do just that. We love to immerse ourselves in the culture we visit. I was blessed to grow up in household that subscribed to National Geographic. I loved reading the stories of people and their cultures.

Sadly there are far too many that will let evil live and rule their hearts and will continue to spread hatred and violence.

 

[Copabanana]

They also were the moneylenders, because the Christian Church at that time taught that Christians were not allowed to lend money

The Jewish people were also precluded from doing other professions or owning land to farm, I believe.

but also Hispanics

M is undocumented. When there are immigration raids around here, I have waves of fear. How ever wrong people believe we are, we are still that, human people with human feelings. We can end up in circumstances in life that others believe are wrong, without intending to have arrived here; having wanted to do only right, and ended up in what other people believe is the "wrong."

Elsi. This I the difference between us. I do not necessarily believe in the pre-eminency of "fact." Somebody can arrive at a fact and misperceive it because of context or manipulate it by malice or opportunism. I believe in human-heartedness over and above fact. If I cultivate human heartedness even if there is an anomaly or disorder I may be insulated from misapprehending and acting badly propelled by prejudice or fear.

I apologize if my history lesson is telling you things you’re already well aware of

Oh my. I am the same way. It seems that I love to share (spout off) what I learn, however trivial.

 

[Copabanana]

When one puts themselves above others they now have a skewed sense of self and entitlement.

to feel superior?

I think that people who feel superior or self-satisfied are not prone to act out towards others in this kind of violent, explosive way. They just go be bossy or go to their clubs with other like-minded people. The entitled elbow others out of the way, push toward the head of the line, and grab a bigger share of the pie.

The people that are doing this, or who identify with them are more likely to feel they have been "pushed out of the way, left with nothing, or the short end of the stick, by others who have gotten the bigger piece. As a result they feel invisible or crushed.

Jews have always been blamed as the cause. It is their fault because it is perceived that they took more or too much of what they did not deserve.

When this kind of rage is experienced, it is that that person feels obliterated. This is a terrible feeling to tolerate. It is all too human in this instance to seek an external target. It is truly horrifying that these flames are being fanned in our political environment.

I truly believe that many, many individuals at times feel rage and underneath that the sense that they will be obliterated, kind of like ego death. It is terrible and I have felt it. I have felt it in relation to my son. But there was nobody around trying to manipulate me when I was in this state. Nobody trying to frame my anger in ways that would corral it, so that I would act badly. I had the luxury of being able to go to my room and lie down until I could get myself together, recompose myself based upon competencies.

I know that there are people who live nourished by fantasies to obliterate human souls, to snuff out spirits; committed to making groups of people not exist. Until now they have largely lied dormant and marginal in our society. Increasingly they are emboldened to step up and out. They are hearing a call. This is not spontaneous.

There are people behind the curtain, right now. Strategists. Who know what they are doing. They are waving red flags. And they are doing it deliberately.

 

[Elsi]

The Jewish people were also precluded from doing other professions or owning land to farm, I believe.

Yes. I believe you're absolutely right. I should have mentioned that.

Elsi. This I the difference between us. I do not necessarily believe in the pre-eminency of "fact." Somebody can arrive at a fact and misperceive it because of context or manipulate it by malice or opportunism.

I don't define facts as something constructed in the human mind. I define them as a reflection of objective reality, regardless of what people actually believe. The world was not any less round when a majority of people living on it believed it was flat. The world just is, regardless of what people believe about it. The world would still be round even if there were no sentient beings here to perceive it. When I talk about "facts", I am talking about things that can be objectively defined through the scientific method, direct observation or other methods of concrete evidence gathering (such as historical primary sources or archeological evidence). I am a scientist at heart. I believe in evidence.

When you're talking about "facts" such as "women are naturally inferior to men and belong in the home, not in the workforce" or "this race is intellectually or culturally superior to that race" - well, I don't define those as facts. These are judgments, with no basis in physical reality. Yes, scientific facts themselves can also be misused and misinterpreted - I think of IQ tests being used as "evidence" that some races are more intelligent than others, when in fact they were measuring no such thing. All of the measured differences can be attributed to differences in educational opportunity, nutrition (reflecting development delays due to malnutrition in poorer populations), cultural issues around the test design, etc. The fact that different populations performed differently on a specific test at a specific time and place and history does not change. But our understanding of what that fact means - our interpretations and judgments - have evolved (among most of the scientific community, at least). People using those facts to justify racial superiority are just wrong, and have always been wrong.

Moral judgments - right and wrong - are separate for me from facts. Science cannot help us here. Science is neutral. It just defines what it. We have to decide how we interpret it, and what we do with it. I do believe there are ultimate Rights and Wrongs, a moral order to the universe in addition to a physical one. And I hope as a species we are getting closer to it. A couple of years ago I would have said that we were. The last couple of years has shaken my optimism for the human race badly.

If cultivate human heartedness even if there is an anomaly or disorder we may be insulated from misapprehending and acting badly propelled by prejudice or fear.

I don't think we're as far apart in our thinking as you believe we are. I agree with you - we have to cultivate human heartedness above all, or facts will not help us.

 

[Copabanana]

When I talk about "facts", I am talking about things that can be objectively defined through the scientific method

I don't define facts as something constructed in the human mind.

But Elsi, everything that we perceive is constructed in the human mind to some degree or another and filtered through our perceptual limits.

I am getting way beyond my competency here, and I do not want to argue myself into a corner, but can it really be established by science that there is anything in the world that can be independently verified. Every measuring stick has itself been developed by humans, in relation to our own perceptional limits. Our eyes, our brains, our sense of touch--these are not independent and objective faculties. Physics and mathematics, yes, I agree with that. Maybe I think of "order" rather than fact, as being verifiable, according to how the human brain operates. Everything else, except physics and math, is consensual.
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Elsi. I am waaay over my head. I think you are probably right. But I do not think this way. I have way more doubt and little security in anything other than ideas that come out of my own head (unfortunately) and heart.

Thank you very much Elsi.

 

[Elsi]

But Elsi, everything that we perceive is constructed in the human mind to some degree or another and filtered through our perceptual limits.

Agreed - but reality is still out there, independent of our limitations and perceptions!

I could debate metaphysics all day but I'd better go do some actual work for a bit. I will be back later!

 

[BusynMember]

Much of science is threory based on what certain scientists perceived and we were told to believe. Facts change as our knowledge of the world does. I bring you the very minor example of Pluto. It was a planet. Now its not. Science is constantly changing. Facts constantly change.

Nothing is perfect and that is one reason why some people start thinking off the rails.

I think most people who are angry at anyone of another race or religion is inherently one who is in general angry at the world and feeling inferior and and it cant be they who are the reason why they feel badly about themselves. Has to be THEM! I always shake my head when white men cry that now THEY have less rights. They have been running the country for quite a long time. Um, they still do and most in power were white men even in Obama's day. And I believe that Obama was president twice scared some bigots. I believe racism got worse amongst some factions.

This sprouting about the margenilized white man is not reality. They had aabig head start. Blacks were slaves, then an attempt of more slavery and to demean them happened with legal, enforced segregation. This shame happened in my lifetime. Many people still need to believe that blacks are inferior, that there is no more prejudice (ridicules) in the country so blacks better stop whining about it and that the history of African Americans in this country doesnt shape them today. It is denial to validate their own rage. Most Mexicans in this country are good people. But a few arent (like any group) so we have thousands of people who want to build a wall. And throw out people who have done well here. And seperate families. How is this humane? Some hate Jews for reasons that go way back but a big part of it is because of religious differences. And that Jews tend to be successful in spite of not following the flock. How dare they! They MUST succeed only because they manipulate, steal and are corrupt. And they have too much power. Must.stop.them. Hitler tried and almost succeeded.

If you are not a white man in the eyes of many you have no value. I heard one moronic radio talk show host say that "all this" (all this what,?) started when women got the vote. Ever hear the repulsive term "femnazi?" How dare women want to be equal to men. That makes one akin to Hitler's Nazis. I dont know who started this term but it is vile. Calling ambitious, smart, successful women Nazis, like a soldier of Hitler, makes me want to retch.

The last election was the end of me FBing. I dont miss it now that there is another election coming up.