son is in partial hospitalization (PH)

[InsaneCdn]

Parents decide ultimately how far they go taking responsibility for their adult children. As far as my thinking goes, if I take responsibility for my son even partially, I will ask for some control. If he will not give me some influence, I will withdrew the help I am giving him. If he does not want to submit somewhat to my wishes, he can leave. It is a negotiation.

This negotiation is very stressful.

Very well said!

 

[BusynMember]

You cant pick his friends. But if he was serious about quitting he'd get rid of them on his own. As long as they hang with druggies, they will be under pressure to use. That's why my daughter left the state without telling any druggies where she went. Druggies dont hang with non druggies.

You will know he is seriously clean, both in clean body and new mindset, when he decides on his own that his drug using friends are not worth it. Sadly, he let you know hes not ready yet.

I wouldnt engage him if he is going to abuse you and you may rethink how much of your retirement you want to spend on an abusive man, your son or not, if he is wasting it.

If you want it more than he does, it is unlikely to work. I learned that gem from our very wise Child.of Mine. Your son has to want to be clean more than you want him to. We have no control over their will or , in the end, what they do or dont do.

in my opinion 23 is too old to live at home, especially on your dime. They don't mature in our homes. They dont mature if we solve all their problems for them. They need to figure it out on their own.

Take care of yourself. Big hugs.

 

[rebelson]

We can either cut them loose or not. If we do not, and do not demand conditions, we are taking responsibility for subsidizing their autonomy, whether or not we condone their choices.
But I will never again allow him control over my space or me, or do whatever he wants, while he is in my space or accepting my help.
This negotiation is very stressful.

I think you set yourself up for this. I think you (and he) and your husband need to make some choices. If you are going to detach, that means that he gets to choose who his friends and contacts are, I think. But then, economic help needs to be re-thought, because if you are paying his way, I think you have some right to have conditions.
But then, look at it this way: He is an adult. Do you really have a right to dictate his friendships. A decision must be made I think, I clear one. Is he an adult or is he a child:
There are parents that support their adult children going to college. I do not know that those parents feel they can either influence or control the friends their children select.
The thing is: your son gets to determine the kind of life he wants, what he thinks of you, and to a point how he treats you. The only decision you have with respect to him that you control, I think, is how much you allow him in your life.
Even if you support him I do not think you have much control, unless he buys in. It does not sound like he is buying. I can understand why. He wants autonomy which is age-appropriate.

Copa-

All I asked, was a question. He could have answered that question in any form or way which he felt like, and I would've been completely ok with his answer. 'No, I will not delete any toxic friends...' OR 'yes, I might do that, it could not hurt...' OR EVEN 'mom, butt out, it's my business..' It would've been lovely to hear that last one! Seriously. I would've been like, 'ok!'

Ok, that is all I was doing. Inquiring. That's it.

I posted this on here, only to show how reactive he is. My husband, his stepfather, got the attitude. His paternal grandma got it, his aunt (whom lives with-grandma) got it. That's the MAIN reason that he was kicked out by grandma. They couldn't handle it, his attitude, anymore. He was being allowed to live in her home, for free, but would not obey the few rules she asked him to abide by. He was rude and also sometimes, hostile to both of them as well. He was spoiled there, fresh, hot, Italian cooked meals, she made his lunches when he had to work, etc. He didn't seem to appreciate it. He does not take rules well. He also spouted off to his HS teachers and some bosses.

Whether he keeps or trashes his FB druggy friends, is his choice. 1 question -----> sets him off. It was not even a suggestion(where then I could understand him getting agitated-being told what to do), it was phrased as a question. The eggshells are impossible to maneuver around him. To have a conversation on the phone is stressful in itself, just trying to not upset his apple cart. Today, I accidentally tipped that cart over. I was caught off guard when he called, was in the Cracker Barrel gift shop with his siblings, browsing around. I saw his call and as I walked out the door to answer it, thought 'ewww, not a good time to pick up...' but I did anyway. I didn't know there was a ticking bomb...waiting.

Autonomy is something I am trying to THROW his way. Are you kidding? He will be 24 in September. I want nothing to do with his life decisions....he needs to make them. All of them. If I even intervene in ONE, that is too much. I give some wisdom, if I have it, when I feel like he can accept it.

The funny thing is, is that I have SO backed off on asking him 'questions'...for a long while now. The one day I do it?

He still is blaming everything he's done wrong in his life, on me - his 'roots'. Well, it takes 2 'roots' to create a child..what about the other root? That one gets a continuous free pass. And, he(son), the tree? I guess that 'tree' is innocent, too. Just plop it all on mom.

I'm sorry, but I am tired of it. I was not the perfect mom, but you know what? Who is? And I darned loved him to death. He wanted to marry me when he was 5. And he got a ton and plethora of my attention, sometimes even more than my husband got from me...and when I had his siblings...I made darned sure he didn't feel any left out. My mother barely gave me any attention, her men were more important. I made SURE to not do that to my son. Especially I felt guilt for him, that his father was local but really uninvolved. That made me sad. Maybe I over-corrected, which is not uncommon & not ideal. Not sure. But, I have apologized to him for anything I might have done in his growing up that was difficult for him. He, I think, has gripped on to that admission, and keeps using it to hurt me. Manipulate me, as addicts do. Using it to his benefit. But, it's getting old.

I feel like & have been told by professionals, that I am getting the anger that he has towards his father. He knows that I am the 'safe' one to abuse as my love is unconditional. Isn't that crazy to read?

 

[InsaneCdn]

I feel like & have been told by professionals, that I am getting the anger that he has towards his father. And, he knows that I am the 'safe' one to abuse as my love is unconditional.

Welcome to the "punching bag society".
And for some reason, it's mostly Moms in this exclusive society. Not because we won't include Dads but because there aren't as many of them.

 

[BusynMember]

You were a great mom and went overboard loving your son. It is your son who is not a kind or respectful person, not you. Dont even listen to his warped drugged blame. Hang up. Stop texting. Leave the room. I like to say, "when we can talk with mutual respect, we will. Right now I am leaving." (Click of phone or footsteps as you leave). Keep doing it. It works if you dont stop.

You have every right to ask your son a question unless it is abusive. You werent. He was. It is unworthy of us to have to walk on eggshells. Who is he to treat you like dirt when you still pay his bills at an age when most adult kids are planning their futures, graduating college, fighting for our country or at the very least working a full time job?

It is not you. It is him. Remember this and dont allow him to go off on you. Detach, detach, detach. Hugs! We are here.

 

[Copabanana]

All I asked, was a question. He could have answered that question in any form

I am sorry I gave a different answer than you wanted. I will try again.

We have only one choice when adults treat us in a way that we consider to be unwarranted or even abusive. To withdraw. There is no other option that I can see. Whether that adult is deemed by any other person or every other person to be wrong--insert any adjective you wish here--matters not at all. We can all agree son is "reactive." What does that do for you?

He has the right to blame you, me, or G-d for anything. He can have 5 million followers that agree. It is his right. As long as you are invested in what he says (or does) it will lead to the same result. You will feel unfairly accused and feel the necessity to make him wrong. There is no other result possible. It is a tug a war. As long as you are investing an ounce of energy in wanting a certain result from him, you will be hurt in some way.

1 question -----> sets him off

OK. He is reactive. What does that get you? Does that change anything?

The learning here needs to come from you. Why? Because you cannot learn for him. He is his own person.

He still is blaming everything he's done wrong in his life, on me - his 'roots'.

There is nothing fair or just about this. Or kind. He can blame you for everything his whole long life (hopefully not). It is his right to do so. Until you accept this you will suffer.

I wish I thought differently, so that I could post differently. Hopefully I am wrong.

 

[Copabanana]

Inquiring. That's it.

There was a time when I could not even say umm on a phone call with my son, and he would hang up on me. I learned to not talk at all except to say, hi, bye, and one or two other words.

Of course it is not reasonable that our sons react to our voices in the way that they do. But they do. The only way it will change is if we change. We cannot change them. They change if and when they choose.

My mother died with her daughter believing and telling her she was toxic to her, refusing phone calls before she died. There is nothing fair about life. We can only demand of ourselves that we require of others fair and right conduct to our face or in dealings with us.

 

[TheWalrus]

My daughter is the same way - bio dad is a junkie and alcoholic, disappeared from her life for YEARS with no explanation (no clue where he was - he could have been dead for all I knew), never financially or emotionally supported, never even tried to contact her, and in my opinion, has some sort of mental disorder himself.

My husband and I have been here her whole life. WE get the brunt of her abuse and bio dad gets none. I think a lot of her issues began with a feeling of abandonment, and there is a lot of research on how severely that affects a person, especially at a critical age in development. I never thought she needed therapy. She was a normal kid, a rebellious teenager, but nothing over the top.

It is hard to know all you have done and have hate and bile spit at you, and watch the parent who did all the WRONG things get off free as a bird. But those are issues your son has to deal with. I lay my head down at night knowing I did the best I could and made every choice out of love. Hindsight is 20/20. If I could go back, I would have put her in therapy. But I can't, and I didn't know. I can't beat myself up for that.

 

[InsaneCdn]

If I could go back, I would have put her in therapy. But I can't, and I didn't know. I can't beat myself up for that.

And she might not have cooperated anyway. There are just so many factors, that we can't really look back and say it would have been better if we had or hadn't done whatever it was.

 

[Copabanana]

He can blame you for everything his whole long life (hopefully).

I am sorry. There should have been a NOT after hopefully.

Hopefully, he will not continue to be a jerk and blame you for things as a means to escape responsibility for himself.

 

[Copabanana]

I never thought she needed therapy

You know, Walrus, our experience is similar, yours and mine. My relationship with my son was wonderfully sustaining for the both of us until his teens. Even then it was OK. It was after he turned 18 that things went downhill.

You did everything you thought to do for your daughter. When you knew to do more, you did more. So many factors enter into making a life. In our culture we are so geared towards performance and success and the idyllic pictures painted of what life should look like, we lose sight that life for many is hard and sad and full of mistakes.

We hold ourselves to impossible standards.

And she might not have cooperated anyway

The horrible-ness in our situations is that something very bad happened to our young adult kids from which they cannot recover fully. Life as they knew it and we knew it ended and a new, dreadful, reality is now the kernel of truth around which we have to live and go forward.

I have been thinking seriously about your posts to Devasted and your counsel to her to move on. I have recently stumbled upon similar posts from Ironbutterfly that I am taking in the same vein. When all is said and done all we really have is self-care and self-regard.

I do not know how to do it, but I will take you both as my models. Self-care and self-regard can be habits. I can learn them. I do not know how, but I will learn. Thank you for being so persistent.

 

[New Leaf]

Hi Rebelson, so sorry for the stress of all of this. It is hard. It is the same for me, I am the "root" as your son says.
The snarky, disrespectful, awful, manipulative attitude is unacceptable.
When my two were your sons age they were still in and out the revolving door of my home.
I give you props girl, because you are doing this.
It is hard stuff.
My daughters have thrown many reasons my way of why they are the way they are. They have blamed me, and for awhile, I soul searched and ruminated over mistakes I made. We are only human. No one is a perfect parent. These kids know how to get us where it hurts and they just keep twisting the blame blade deeper.
Rubbish, it is so much rubbish.
My monkeys, but not my circus...........
I am not opposed to young adults living at home, if everyone is working together.
These kids just don't seem to thrive at home. It just becomes a battleground with them having more expectations of us then they do of themselves. There is this air of entitlement, an attitude of "You owe me" rather than appreciation.
It is no way to live.
I hear you Rebel, you did the best job you could with your son. You are grieving your loss and venting here. Good, get it out. Where else are we supposed to bring this?
Our d cs will use our unconditional love to their advantage. Doesn't mean we have to like them, or what their choices are. That's right. I don't like my two right now. I love them, but I do not like them.
I do not like their abusiveness and manipulation, their shunning and blaming.
I hear you Rebel. I am also learning that if and when my two decide to try to get clean, I am going to have to learn a whole new skill set. From what I have read here, it is another roller coaster ride of hope and promise, then backsliding.
I am going to have to brace myself for that.
For now, one day at a time.
I am with you Rebelson, we worked really hard to raise our kids and to have so much spite and venom thrown at us is hurtful to say the least.
Well, we're just going to have to build up our armor and fend off those daggers.

Nothing stops ugly faster in its tracks then no response and living well.

(((Hugs)))
leafy

 

[BusynMember]

My first child was always challenging but close to me until about age thirteen when he started isolating from the family. Some of his reasons were reasonable and his anger understandable....he was a teenager, we had adopted a child who was his age and the two never got along ( in his mind we shouldnt have adopted a child so close to his age and in retrospect I totally agree), plus a divorce was pending. So I do feel some responsibility.

Mental illness also kicked in, heartbreaking in many ways because it denied my very bright son his college years.

My own opinion (backed up by newer research) is that much of his reaction to life in those years was tied to his DNA. I feel there was/is MUCH mental illness and instability in the family genes. Are many of our kids not like one or both parent or off the rails uncle? How we react to situations ia rooted in our temperments. I have two daughters...one high strung, one very chill. How they react to the same situations are night and day. DNA is out of our control. They can blame us to the moon, but there are so many variables. A good portion of the choices they make due to their DNA., their temperments.

I am very close to my son now. His mental illness is under control. He has a great job, a house, a car and is a loving father. Things change.

Dont let your child pin his troubles on you. Reject it. Don't listen. Hang up. Stop texting. Leave the room. Make it clear that disrespect is not tolerated....la la la, you wont listen to it. Bye bye until your adult child is willing to engage in a calm, mutually respectful conversation. Period. Jmo

Try to have a good day. Many hugs.