Toxic Friends-Kicking you when you're down

MissLulu

Well-Known Member
There are some jobs such as author, law enforcement, some professions where their practitioners are either responsible to treat or understand problems, or to respond to and contain them; or they are seen by others as possessing superior knowledge and wisdom, and there is the perception by themselves or others that they should be able to do so.

Hi Copa, I read this message yesterday but didn't get the chance to reply. This statement really resonated with me. Before I was an author, I was a school teacher. It's not just others who think "people like me" should be able to deal with any parenting problems that arise. I thought (think?) it too.

The worst part of all of this for me is the fear and (I hate to admit this) the shame. Logically I know my son is an adult and I can't control what he does, but there is still part of me that wonders what I did to cause it. I know I have made mistakes with my son and I most definitely have not been perfect. But he has been loved (treasured, in fact) and given all the same opportunities and advantages as his brothers (probably more if I'm honest). He chooses to live his life in a way that perplexes me. Did I contribute to that? I don't know. But my shame is deep, as is my fear of judgement. I'm trying hard to let go of it, and some days I feel strong and able to cope. Other days I find the weight of my shame crippling and I'm not sure if that will ever be any different.

I guess the one thing I will say is that being on this board has given me the opportunity to talk about it in a safe space, which has helped. The practical advice I've received here has helped me to set boundaries, which have resulted in me successfully getting my son out of my house. This, along with the emotional support and understanding, has helped me enormously. I'm having more good days than bad now, but I'm not sure I'll ever be entirely free of the shame.
 

JMom

Well-Known Member
JMom I would love to but I’m afraid of being recognised! Totally happy to share the titles via private message though! I’ve been meaning to buy your book for a while now. I love your posts and I’m sure your book is wonderful!
Thank you, if you've read my posts, you've pretty much read the book. LOL. Yes please PM me the title :)
 

JMom

Well-Known Member
There are some jobs such as author, law enforcement, some professions where their practitioners are either responsible to treat or understand problems, or to respond to and contain them; or they are seen by others as possessing superior knowledge and wisdom, and there is the perception by themselves or others that they should be able to do so.

I think that the people who go into this work, feel that about themselves. That they SHOULD be able to produce and to rear children whose behavior does not EXPLODE all over the family and community. Of course, nobody can control life to this extent. But still we have the expectation of ourselves, that we should have been able to do better. There is shame.

I know I have felt great shame. It took me the longest time to realize that the shame began well before the distress with my son. The shame is my own to bear, to resolve, to put to rest. The shame is a gift, I have come to learn.

Greta Thunberg was on TV last night. I had only paid peripheral attention to her, until now. But I had heard that she had had psychological problems, so I read further.

Prior to beginning her climate protest she had been a selective mute. She did NOT speak. She was diagnosed with Asperger's. She had been bullied in school and she had been depressed. There was a triggering event for her, when she responded to specific scientific findings about the climate (I don't remember this minute, what they were) when she began to speak. And in this way she found her voice and herself.

Thank you Copa, You are always spot on!

And with that too her whole family changed. Her mother had been an opera singer, but both parents decided to follow Greta's lead. The mother curtailed all flying in airplanes, for example. And both parents began to center their own lives and the family as a whole on the needs and the vulnerabilities and the power of their two children. (Their other daughter has ADHD.)

Which is to say, they unified around the idea of vulnerability. Which is a real paradox. Greta insisted upon rebelling against mistreatment. As if she was on strike, by not speaking, as long as she was excluded. And through identifying with the vulnerability of the planet, she was able to find her own power and voice. And give the vulnerable planet, a voice, too.

But the thing is, even for Greta there was shame and fear, that had endured. The first time she was with a group of her peers, who in fact adored her, she retreated behind a pillar, to compose herself, finding the courage to be present. She was afraid. After a few minutes she found herself. That's us, too.

I am trying to let this penetrate. How does this apply to myself, my son, my family? My son is nearly double Greta's age. Had I responded differently to his distress, could this all be different? Had I circled the wagons, instead of reacting with shame, could I have kept him inside the circle, and myself too?

It's too late for all of that, because those questions give rise only to more pain. But I am trying to let this settle. The idea that the acceptance of distress and pain and difference and limitation, the feeling of it, and not the denial of it, or externalization of it, begins and mobilizes healing, for ourselves and for others too.

If you think about it, that's the basis of this site. All of us, each of us, begin with confessions about the truth of what's going on. It is like this great purge or heave, almost beyond our control. When we get here, that's where we are. It's gotten so bad we have to expel it somehow, someplace. And with that public disclosure, we begin the healing process. And with that, too, we give others the opportunity to work through their own pain and healing, through integrating our own pain and recovery into their own process. We model to each other this same process, as Greta is doing for climate.

What I am trying to say is that this is heroic and important work we do here. There is no room for shame here.
 

JMom

Well-Known Member
I am wondering here if I am the guilty party. In two friendships I am thinking of, I am the one who backed off or left entirely. The friendship that feels irrevocably broken, I felt smothered. She demanded constant attention and would not observe a limit. But she felt entitled on her end to put in limits that benefited her. This felt too much like my family. And then there had always been cruelty and insensitivity on her part. I guess, at the end, (14 years ago), either I felt, enough is enough, or all of it caught up with me, and I could not take more.

It's not that there was a betrayal to others. The fabric of the relationship did not inspire trust. And as a teen I was molested by her father, who had also molested his 4 daughters. For years I had been a latchkey kid, I had turned to this family as the only support I had. I was vulnerable. And then after 50 years, one day, I decided to no longer be vulnerable to this family anymore. In my case, there had always been danger, and a lack of trust. So. I agree OW.

With this woman, I would have liked, one day to talk to her, but I fear it. I fear being blamed.

In the other case, with the doctor, the one who is focused upon herself, I am remembering something here. In the first few months of this friendship, 40 years ago, this woman would make plans with me, say, to go out to dinner. And then if the man she was seeing wanted to go out with her she'd cancel with me. It hurt me. She had left her marriage, for another man. And because this other man himself was married (eventually they did marry), and living in Europe, she had ANOTHER boyfriend. With this woman, I maintain a friendship although there was a decade of no contact on my part.

So. Again I am in agreement, OW. When I look at it in both cases their had been a web of mistrust, where what I had needed had never really been there.

I don't like to look so closely at this because after all these are the relationships that have endured (or not) my whole life. If they're gone, what is there?

Is the absence of trust in me, or is the incapacity in them, or both? To we pick these relationships in part because of the insufficiency?

I am sad with Coronavirus. I don't like all of these chickens come home to roost. But I like my cats.

Copa,

I am so sorry that happened to you as a young girl. There is a special place for adults that victimize children. The innocence taken is a travesty.
 

JMom

Well-Known Member
I am surprised there are so many authors here.

I agree with all you said, J Mom. The skills I learned from reading but the implementation of boundaries came from the help in this group. I have come a long way, and I also use what I have success using what I have learned in all my relationships, which brings me to this "friend". (I had a meltdown on this topic a while ago and made it through, thanks to the support I recieved here.

Realistically, did she contribute in some way to your book?Did she encourage you, help you work through the tough spots, the many things we experience as writers? I think honorable mention of someone who is not honorable would not be the right thing to do. It diminishes the worth of relationships that build us up. You owe her nothing. She chose to contribute. Trust, gratitude, and mutual support without fear of judgement are the cornerstones of a worthy friendship. That can't be bought or manipulated. It must be earned. I guess it's about the standard WE set for ourselves.

I am so sorry you are going through this. Others seem to think they have answers. Trouble is they want to help by telling us what we need to do. That is not help. I have been approached by the person who hurt me to try to reconnect. Thing is, she said horrible things when I told her everything she thought we should do had already been done. (She is my children's deceased father's sister in law). I forgive her because she simply cannot understand, but I dont want her in my life. My son, best friend, and my husband all tell me she didnt want to help, she is just nosey. Lord knows I have enough to deal with, especially since my Difficult Child is now pregnant for the first time at 41. She immediately quit drinking and the adderall and xanax. For the first time in years we can talk on the phone. I know she is going to strughke

Thank you Blindsided. I appreciate you validating my feelings of betrayal. She did a lot of things, I just highlighted the two that I couldn't let go of.
 

JMom

Well-Known Member
JMom, I hope this thread has brought you some comfort - knowing that we all go through this. Not that any of us wish misery on others, but it is nice to know that we are not alone in what we go through.

A few years back I lost a lifelong friend when she stopped answering my calls. This wasn't about my son - back then he hadn't caused us significant drama. Those were the days...

It's a long story, I don't really know what happened (because she she refused to talk to me) but I think it might have been an offhand remark that my husband made on Facebook, about tattoos of all things. Her husband has tattoos and I think she took offence at my husband's remarks (which were not aimed at her husband in any way but it seems she interpreted them as such.) She is my youngest son's Godmother and I was her bridesmaid. I've known her since the day she was born. (Our mothers were best friends.) She just took herself out of my life. I tried many ways to talk to her to find out what the issue was and fix it but in the end I had to accept her decision. We moved to the country around about the same time as the tattoo incident so the geographical distance probably didn't help.

Anyway, a couple of years ago I wrote a book about a lifelong friendship that disintegrates. It was a fictional story but I channelled my feelings into it. It was very cathartic. JMom, I was thinking about this and I wondered if you'd thought about writing as an avenue to deal with your feelings about this friend? Just a thought...
Miss Lulu,

That is a good suggestion. I don't consider myself a writer. I know, I self published a book, but it was more like a diary. I just kept wishing I knew how bad it was going to get so that I wouldn't have been utterly consumed by his addiction. I guess that was the point of the book-let another parent know to strap in and take care of themselves.

I could write 5 books on this woman lol. The Tent was the first attempt at any kind of writing, I loved it but it took three years and my grammar is horrible. I think it took a long time because it brought back so many hurtful feelings. I think I could continue writing, but have no idea when, or about which subject(s).
 

JMom

Well-Known Member
Thank you to everyone for your support. It is getting a little easier since I faced it. She is still going for "walks" (EVERY DAY) on my street. There's absolutely NO reason for her to do so. She has to go out of her way to walk on my street. This, the woman whom I begged to walk (for her own well being) for six years. I was only able to convince her like 3 times. Her daughter has suddenly come to visit our home after over a year of not hanging out with my daughter.

Ugh. I'm sure she will tire herself out. I was either a horrible human in former life or this one because I have the WORST karma! Every time I leave my house, I run into her. What the heck y'all. I have been outside a total of 6 times (outside of work) since the break up and I see her every time. It's almost comical. I will sit down and be nice now. No sense in beating a dead horse and making you all suffer through it. LOL

Jmom
 

RN0441

100% better than I was but not at 100% yet
Working so no time to read everyone's comments now but YES you totally did the right thing.

You definitely needed to distance yourself from that person.

Good for you!
 

Beta

Well-Known Member
Congratulations. Are you pleased with the house? Can you tell us some about us, if you'd like, of course? I missed you Beta. I'm glad you're back.

I'd be glad to. It's in Georgia, which is where my husband is from. We are glad to be leaving the cold winters of the Midwest. The house is a ranch style, brick, 3 bdrm/1 bath; well-kept but needs some updating as far as paint and fixtures; on a quiet road. The yard is bigger than what we want but, oh well; I guess we'll have to get a riding lawnmower. Just waiting for the application to be processed and to find out our closing date. We're excited but also feeling a little overwhelmed at the prospect of making another cross-country move.
 

Nomad

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Only you know for sure, but it sounds like you likely need to end this friendship. I found it particularly bothersome when I let someone into my personal life truths regarding our mentally ill child and yet they still were jealous of me or petty in some way. Having an ill child in any way (physical, mental, addiction) is a special kind of hell. It seems a true friend should be empathetic. I think to have a long term friendship requires patience and forgiveness. But if you often find yourself feeling bad or troubled, it’s not a healthy friendship.
 

AnotherMom58

New Member
I completely support what you did. And NO you are absolutely not being petty. Having someone like this around will only make you feel bad and add nothing good/productive to your life.
I had a friend who I knew for 15 years, since college. She lived nearby and our families were close. But when my son started acting out, that's when I realized that she actually feels superior to me since my son is using drugs and her son isn't. She didn't say it outright but little comments she's made, facial expressions, etc. told me what I needed to know. I've also heard from other people that she's gossiped about me.
I cut off our friendship soon after that. Not because I realized she was toxic - back then I still wanted her as a friend - but because I was ashamed of my son and my parenting. I felt like there must be something I did as a mother to make my son be the way he is.
That's what toxic people do - make you feel shame and sadness. You need friends who would pull you up, not drag you down. You did the right thing.
 

JMom

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the support you guys! I am feeling so much lighter without the negativity. Starting to feel like myself again!
 

RN0441

100% better than I was but not at 100% yet
Congrats on the move Beta - not to hijack your post Jmom but we made a cross country move in 2018 from Chicago to the Alabama Coast. Mine was due to my job transferring but husband was happy to get out of the cold. It was also a fresh start for our Difficult Child so a win all the way around.

So miss our two adult sons in Chicago but one is married and one is engaged and they have full lives and we are in touch almost daily with our family texts.
 

Beta

Well-Known Member
Congratulations to both of you. Is this somewhere where you can plant yourselves and stay?
Yes. My in-laws and other family members live in the Atlanta area, so we will be STAYING PUT for the first time in our married lives. Can't wait to put down roots and call someplace "home."

Congrats on the move Beta - not to hijack your post Jmom but we made a cross country move in 2018 from Chicago to the Alabama Coast. Mine was due to my job transferring but husband was happy to get out of the cold. It was also a fresh start for our Difficult Child so a win all the way around.
Thanks RN. That sound like a little bit of cross-cultural move, as well as a cross-country move! We are very tired of the cold Midwest winters and just don't want to deal with it anymore. Of course, we'll have to get reacquainted with Georgia heat and humidity all over again! So, still some discomfort, just from a difference source and season!
 

RN0441

100% better than I was but not at 100% yet
People are so passive aggressive. I'd rather have someone just be real with me even if I didn't like it than someone act nice to your face but knife you in the back and play games with your emotions!!
 

BloodiedButUnbowed

Well-Known Member
There is nothing like hardship to expose the pretenders in our lives. A couple of years ago I suffered through a horrible, gut-wrenching estrangement from a close friend of over 40 years. It has taken me this long to really understand that I am better off without this "friend" in my life.

We're glad you're here. There are good folks to be found on this site.

All the best.
 
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