unchecked anxiety & relapse
- Thread starter rebelson
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rebelson
Active Member
So I am with a friend at this retreat on Befriending Fears.
This morning for breakfast I went out on the balcony and asked a younger looking gentleman if my friend and I could sit at his table.
Turns out he is 31, A recovered (7yrs) addict, & A standup comedian in the large city next to where I live.
His story and my son story are almost exact in nature, only he has real sobriety under his belt and my son doesn't yet.
We chatted at the table for 1.5 hours. He prayed with me for my son and gave me his phone number. He would like to call my son when he is out of PHP.
We all (he, my friend & I) believe a higher power, Holy Spirit is involved here! I will update in a few days.
This morning for breakfast I went out on the balcony and asked a younger looking gentleman if my friend and I could sit at his table.
Turns out he is 31, A recovered (7yrs) addict, & A standup comedian in the large city next to where I live.
His story and my son story are almost exact in nature, only he has real sobriety under his belt and my son doesn't yet.
We chatted at the table for 1.5 hours. He prayed with me for my son and gave me his phone number. He would like to call my son when he is out of PHP.
We all (he, my friend & I) believe a higher power, Holy Spirit is involved here! I will update in a few days.
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RN0441
100% better than I was but not at 100% yet
Rebelson:
Thinking over the weekend about something you mentioned and wanted to say not to feel bad that your son's dad wasn't around and that could be the cause for him turning to addiction. My son's dad was around and involved and he turned to addiction.
If it's not one reason, it's another. Just don't beat yourself up over that!
Thinking over the weekend about something you mentioned and wanted to say not to feel bad that your son's dad wasn't around and that could be the cause for him turning to addiction. My son's dad was around and involved and he turned to addiction.
If it's not one reason, it's another. Just don't beat yourself up over that!
rebelson
Active Member
True.
So, the monastic retreat was the most amazing experience this time. I had gone 2yrs ago, it was not the same experience. Many ppl return to this place, over and over. Some, annually and some monthly, even. I will not go into many details, apart from what I shared in post #23. There is no way to repeat or explain what all transpired.
Suffice it to say, the Holy Spirit (or for those non-religious folks), Higher Power, was present in more than one moment for me. Another retreatant, a young woman (30?) who has been 'sober' for 6yrs now, had a 'mystic' occurrence while she was in one of the prayer rooms alone, that of 'Our Lady of Guadalupe'.
The 31yr old, 8yr sober guy (a standup comedian!) that we sat with at breakfast that morning, is like a clone of my son - but sober now. Same anxieties, super intelligent, cerebral, a sweetie, & other stuff, same story, almost. Mind-blowing stuff here.
Out of the 30 retreatants, there was, of course myself (mom of an addict), 3 other parents of addicts, several recovering alcoholics, my friend whose brother is an alcoholic, and a person whose spouse was a sex addict. And perhaps there were more? Who, due to being shy, or more private, did not speak at all. We were all there due to the retreat topic - 'Befriending Fear'. We were given the floor to speak out to group about our 'fears' and so I did. Took a leap of faith and admitted my fear for my addict son. The outpouring of love, hugs and offers of prayer for me and my son, that I rec'd after that mtg was over....and then continued all weekend, was overwhelming.
I sat with one of the Trappist brothers or 'monks' on Saturday night, for about an hour. He is the main one, who gave the total of 5 talks on the fear topic. We discussed my son. This 68yo monk has been in the monastery since 1968. He was prior, in the Navy, where he partied and drank. He is just filled with worldly & sage wisdom, I am baffled by this, as he lives in a monastery! I took away some really wonderful, simple tips, advice.
I highly recommend to anybody whom this type of retreat appeals to, to do a search on monastic retreats that may be local to you. It is for ANYBODY, religious, atheist, Jewish, whatever! All are welcomed. Very fortunately, I live under an hour away from this one. I plan on returning again in the next 6 - 10 months. My friend loved it. She flew up here to attend this with me, from south FL!
I found a wonderful, loving therapist 3wks ago. She is the right mixture so far, of honesty, compassion and best thing? She does not sugar coat things for me, she tells me how I am being ridiculous where son is concerned. (she doesn't use that word, lol) Today, she told me I have to stop telling my son what he needs to do. Stop asking him stuff like 'did you make your dentist appointment yet? why not? have you been looking for a job? why not? you need to _________ (do this) or you need to ____________(do that)' She said I am 'keeping him feeling like a little boy....like he is not capable....keeping him attached to mommy (bad!).....making him think he's inept. By me doing this, I am keeping him from real growth, maturity, independence!! The addicts think this when we do this: "I am not capable. See? My own mother (father, whoever) thinks I am incapable, she has to do things FOR me. Therefore, I must be incapable." And, voila! They STAY incapable.
She also said by me doing this, telling him what to do, even if only once in awhile, it is keeping him attached to mommy. For a man to be a man, especially an independent man, he MUST be free from 'mommy issues' (ie cut the cord).
I have been 'better' at this, ie doing it wayyyy less. But, she says I need to STOP.
And NOW.
I told her that, internally, I felt like me being overinvolved with him and his life, that it is a 'selfish act', that, somehow, it just feels wrong. She agreed. She said 'being overinvolved is a way for you to keep your own anxieties at bay..it IS selfish." I love her, she is real, raw.
The last thing I want to do, in any aspect of my life, is to be selfish. Especially in such a way where it could hinder my own son.As I already shared, last Tuesday night, he relapsed and went to another PHP - a faith-based one. I am not sure how 'faith-based' it is...church daily? Prayer morning and night? I dont' know. But, I am hoping at minimum, he finds some Higher Power, or that a seed is planted while he's there. As him being his OWN Higher Power hasn't been working out all that well for him so far.
I have not heard from him, he has no cell phone access, but can make an occasional call. I am completely fine with this, that I have not gotten a call. I am very angry with him, not so much for the relapse, they are part of recovery. But, for the fact that whomever was driving that night, he was in the car with others, one of them was driving intoxicated. Completely irresponsible.
I will keep this in my craw and use it to keep me firm, grounded and on the 'hold him accountable', up and up with him. I have no desire to call the PHP place and check on him, which by now I would've def done, and maybe even daily.
My daily struggle now, is going to be to stay strong.
This needs to happen for my son's own good. Because I can ruin this, stifle this from happening. How I relate to him, can have very large effects on his future sobriety, indirectly of course.
If I put this on myself in this way, that it is FOR HIM...I think I can be stronger. The last thing I want to do, is to stifle his progress. And sadly, I have been very guilty of doing just this.
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RN0441
100% better than I was but not at 100% yet
Rebelson:
Retreat sounds awesome. What a great way to spend a weekend and with a girlfriend too.
Your counselor sounds great. I thought you had seemed not as obsessed lately and maybe that is why. It is so much better for you too!
This is such a LONG journey for us as moms of addicts and it's so easy to put it all out there and get burned out. I think I am burned out and that is why I am detached now (okay not 100% but 100% better than I was!). I just am too pooped to pop.
Prayers and hugs for you that you continue to put your own needs where they need to be and let him work on himself.
Retreat sounds awesome. What a great way to spend a weekend and with a girlfriend too.
Your counselor sounds great. I thought you had seemed not as obsessed lately and maybe that is why. It is so much better for you too!
This is such a LONG journey for us as moms of addicts and it's so easy to put it all out there and get burned out. I think I am burned out and that is why I am detached now (okay not 100% but 100% better than I was!). I just am too pooped to pop.
Prayers and hugs for you that you continue to put your own needs where they need to be and let him work on himself.
GoingNorth
Crazy Cat Lady
Rebelson, I am glad the retreat was a good experience for you.
I do want to point out one thing though. You are getting Deists mixed up with Atheists. Deists believe in a "higher power" but do not necessarily follow a given religion.
Atheists do not believe in any deity or higher power.
Thomas Jefferson is a good example of both a Freethinker and a Deist. He did believe in some sort of "creator", but was adamantly not in favor of organized religion. Several of the "founding fathers" believed similarly to Jefferson.
I do want to point out one thing though. You are getting Deists mixed up with Atheists. Deists believe in a "higher power" but do not necessarily follow a given religion.
Atheists do not believe in any deity or higher power.
Thomas Jefferson is a good example of both a Freethinker and a Deist. He did believe in some sort of "creator", but was adamantly not in favor of organized religion. Several of the "founding fathers" believed similarly to Jefferson.
rebelson
Active Member
Funny you said that. When speaking with the brother/monk in private Saturday night, I ended it by asking him 'do you think my plan of not calling the PHP place and not reaching out to son, for the 2wks he will be there, is a good idea? Do you think he will think I don't care?' (That is always my fear, that he would ever think I don't care anymore. Because you see, aside from our Higher Power, I am pretty much the last person who hasn't given up on him right now.)
He said "Of course your son knows you care, don't call him. You do your work on self and let him do his work on self."
rebelson
Active Member
Oh, ok! I am not that privy to this stuff. I am sure my son knows all of that ^^^^ that you cited though. He researches and researches. Pretty much anything and everything that interests him. He is very philosophical. Like me, he loves Carl Jung (by the way, my therapist today said that she bases her therapy practice model on him! No wonder I love her.), Eckhart Tolle, Einstein, to name a few.
So, ok - maybe my son is a Deist, then? I think so because he often says that one thing he prides himself on, is that he is a 'free thinker'. He refers to those who follow others as 'sheep'. Lol. A month or so, ago he likened believing in God to believing in Santa Claus. Obviously, I don't agree as I am a Catholic. Lol.
I wonder how he is faring in this 'faith-based' PHP. Lol.
I hope he isn't stirring up trouble, by starting debates about God! Ha.So, if someone believes in a Higher Power, they'd say they were a 'Deist'?
Actually, my son has referred to himself as 'agnostic'. What is the difference between the 3?
I have never heard anybody refer to themselves with that word- Deist. So interesting!
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GoingNorth
Crazy Cat Lady
Not necessarily. A Deist believes in a "god" or "goddess", or just a "deity" which means "supreme being, basically.. Higher power is a bit more diffuse than that.
Freethinkers are often atheists. I am an atheist and a freethinker. I do not believe in any type of higher power, diety, or creator spirit.
I believe all matter originated with the stars, including the matter that makes up us humans. I find the thought that we all are star stuff pretty awesome, and it's a scientific theory with proof behind it that makes sense to me.
But those are my beliefs and they could be just as wrong as religious beliefs feel to me. I'll wait for more science to come in.
Freethinkers are often atheists. I am an atheist and a freethinker. I do not believe in any type of higher power, diety, or creator spirit.
I believe all matter originated with the stars, including the matter that makes up us humans. I find the thought that we all are star stuff pretty awesome, and it's a scientific theory with proof behind it that makes sense to me.
But those are my beliefs and they could be just as wrong as religious beliefs feel to me. I'll wait for more science to come in.
rebelson
Active Member
Where does agnostic fit in?
BusynMember
Well-Known Member
Agnostics arent sure if there is a God. Most lean towards atheism, but aren't 100 per cent sure.
GoingNorth
Crazy Cat Lady
Agnostics are sort of "withholding judgement". They don't know if there's a "god" or not. Some are spiritualists, animists, etc. Some are pretty close to being atheists, but are covering their bets, so to speak.
Some go through an agnostic stage on their way to either becoming religious or becoming atheists. Some stay agnostic.
Quite a few agnostics are Unitarians, a church which welcomes all faiths. They enjoy the companionship and music, and at the couple of Unitiarian services I've been to, the sermons are pretty much about "how to be a good human being".
I should note that Atheists are just as moral and upright as religious folks. We do it so we can look at ourselves in the mirror, as opposed to needing to be "right with" god.
Some go through an agnostic stage on their way to either becoming religious or becoming atheists. Some stay agnostic.
Quite a few agnostics are Unitarians, a church which welcomes all faiths. They enjoy the companionship and music, and at the couple of Unitiarian services I've been to, the sermons are pretty much about "how to be a good human being".
I should note that Atheists are just as moral and upright as religious folks. We do it so we can look at ourselves in the mirror, as opposed to needing to be "right with" god.
rebelson
Active Member
The therapist at the PHP facility where my son is, called me today. He wanted the 411 background on son, he said parents are the best historians.
I unloaded as much as I could.
A few things he said, he had only seen my son once so far.
*he is elusive in conversation
*he is tangential; changes the topic often
*he is avoidant in conversation
* he and the other guy who went in there with him (one of the 2 guys he relapsed with) are sticking together in almost everything they do, everywhere they go, are almost inseparable; they have been reminded that it is more healthy for them to interact with other peers.
As for the 2nd & 3rd ones, I wonder if he is doing that in a purposeful way as he does not like to talk about anything of depth. Hence how he had hidden his anxiety from so many therapists, MD's, sober living, staff and even me.
He uses elusiveness and changing of topics. Is a master at it.
As for the last *, that is a bit curious & worrisome to me. He was at the last sober living place for almost 3 months and nobody ever said that that was his behavior there. In fact, they said he was interactive with everybody, pretty much evenly.
me right now.
I unloaded as much as I could.
A few things he said, he had only seen my son once so far.
*he is elusive in conversation
*he is tangential; changes the topic often
*he is avoidant in conversation
* he and the other guy who went in there with him (one of the 2 guys he relapsed with) are sticking together in almost everything they do, everywhere they go, are almost inseparable; they have been reminded that it is more healthy for them to interact with other peers.
As for the 2nd & 3rd ones, I wonder if he is doing that in a purposeful way as he does not like to talk about anything of depth. Hence how he had hidden his anxiety from so many therapists, MD's, sober living, staff and even me.
He uses elusiveness and changing of topics. Is a master at it.
As for the last *, that is a bit curious & worrisome to me. He was at the last sober living place for almost 3 months and nobody ever said that that was his behavior there. In fact, they said he was interactive with everybody, pretty much evenly.
me right now.
RN0441
100% better than I was but not at 100% yet
Rebelson
I agree about the maturity being years behind. My son is almost 21 and I think of him at about 17. But if I use your scale he may only be 14? Eek.
Good to know about the connection to mommy issue. I have not "talked" to my son in about a month but have texted only a few times. This is very rare for me but it feels good to me to pull away. Based on what you have said then is definitely a good thing for him too.
I hope I am wrong here but I think the signs you mention are typical that your son is not ready to change yet. I would not like that he is inseparable from another addict. It's good to have a friend but recovery is something that is done alone. I have not heard of the buddy system. I also worry for my son that his girlfriend's presence may make him not as eager to comply with the demands of the facility or take it as seriously as he has an emotional "out" of sorts.
Is he embracing the faith teaching there at all that you know of? I would be happy if my son were exposed to this. Not sure what he'd do with it though. He believes in God he says but not sure how far that goes.
On one hand you don't want them to be totally alone, since there is no family visits etc., but on the other maybe being totally alone is a good thing and would promote growth and maturity.
I agree about the maturity being years behind. My son is almost 21 and I think of him at about 17. But if I use your scale he may only be 14? Eek.
Good to know about the connection to mommy issue. I have not "talked" to my son in about a month but have texted only a few times. This is very rare for me but it feels good to me to pull away. Based on what you have said then is definitely a good thing for him too.
I hope I am wrong here but I think the signs you mention are typical that your son is not ready to change yet. I would not like that he is inseparable from another addict. It's good to have a friend but recovery is something that is done alone. I have not heard of the buddy system. I also worry for my son that his girlfriend's presence may make him not as eager to comply with the demands of the facility or take it as seriously as he has an emotional "out" of sorts.
Is he embracing the faith teaching there at all that you know of? I would be happy if my son were exposed to this. Not sure what he'd do with it though. He believes in God he says but not sure how far that goes.
On one hand you don't want them to be totally alone, since there is no family visits etc., but on the other maybe being totally alone is a good thing and would promote growth and maturity.
GoingNorth
Crazy Cat Lady
The problem is that even faith-based rehab allows the addict an "out" in that they can look outside of themselves for help.
True recovery requires a great deal of introspection and facing one's inner self. The only person that can forgive you is yourself. The only entity that can give you strength is yourself.
Support is wonderful and necessary, but when it comes down to it, addiction and recovery are a battle the addict must fight on their own, armed with knowledge of self. That knowledge of self is difficult and painful.
True recovery requires a great deal of introspection and facing one's inner self. The only person that can forgive you is yourself. The only entity that can give you strength is yourself.
Support is wonderful and necessary, but when it comes down to it, addiction and recovery are a battle the addict must fight on their own, armed with knowledge of self. That knowledge of self is difficult and painful.
mof
Momdidntsignupforthis
They had a buddy system the first month at one of my son's houses. He could not go out alone...then his buddy was ahead of him in recovery and gave him th e feeling of mentorship.
Isolating can be not good for depression sufferers....My son is not to be alone large parts of the day.
Obviously work he has to do he has to do himself...but knows he's surrounded by people he could turn to. That's his downfall...He never wants the help.
Isolating can be not good for depression sufferers....My son is not to be alone large parts of the day.
Obviously work he has to do he has to do himself...but knows he's surrounded by people he could turn to. That's his downfall...He never wants the help.
rebelson
Active Member
The therapist said the religion aspect of the facility is completely optional. Not forced, pushed or encouraged. They have some religious speakers come in, and a theologian who visits.
He also told me that the addicts have access to a phone for limited calls every night after an 1.5hr off campus AA mtg. I have not heard from son. This is fine. He has to know that I am not happy.
The therapist told me it drives him crazy when ppl say that relapses are a part of recovery. He doesn't agree. He seems hard core, sober for 27yrs. Ha, I am trying to envision him in with my son for a therapy session. He seems the type to sock it to 'em. I can hear him saying "ah! don't give me that bs, I'm on to you, I've been around the block many more times than you have, sonny boy." The thing is, and maybe I am wrong, if he IS like this with his addicts--->& therefore my son, he won't get anything out of my son, info-wise. He will clam up more and/or bs him back. I hope I am wrong on this!
My son is adverse to ANY change. He really thrives on routine, rituals. Regarding what the therapist said about son's current demeanor, the only thing that makes any semblance of sense to me, is that he is in his turtle in a shell phase, as a reaction to the new place. The new people. The new routine. The new therapist. The guy that entered with him, he knew.
When he 1st entered sober living he was like this, closed up. Guarded. When he was then sent to the higher level of care, residential facility, same thing again. He was closed up, guarded. Many different staff told me this about him. Within several weeks, he opened up. But, still not completely in the aspect of spewing out his issues.
Anyways, the whole day today, I have been on edge. Sort of like I'm having to hold on to the carpeted fibers on the floor because I feel the vacuum trying to suck me back in.
He also told me that the addicts have access to a phone for limited calls every night after an 1.5hr off campus AA mtg. I have not heard from son. This is fine. He has to know that I am not happy.
I don't know. This was strange to hear, because my son has been fairly upbeat the past 4 months, participating in group, friendly with peers/staff, etc. So, what this therapist told me, is not consistent with what I have observed.
The therapist told me it drives him crazy when ppl say that relapses are a part of recovery. He doesn't agree. He seems hard core, sober for 27yrs. Ha, I am trying to envision him in with my son for a therapy session. He seems the type to sock it to 'em. I can hear him saying "ah! don't give me that bs, I'm on to you, I've been around the block many more times than you have, sonny boy."
The thing is, and maybe I am wrong, if he IS like this with his addicts--->& therefore my son, he won't get anything out of my son, info-wise. He will clam up more and/or bs him back. I hope I am wrong on this!My son is adverse to ANY change. He really thrives on routine, rituals. Regarding what the therapist said about son's current demeanor, the only thing that makes any semblance of sense to me, is that he is in his turtle in a shell phase, as a reaction to the new place. The new people. The new routine. The new therapist. The guy that entered with him, he knew.
When he 1st entered sober living he was like this, closed up. Guarded. When he was then sent to the higher level of care, residential facility, same thing again. He was closed up, guarded. Many different staff told me this about him. Within several weeks, he opened up. But, still not completely in the aspect of spewing out his issues.
Anyways, the whole day today, I have been on edge. Sort of like I'm having to hold on to the carpeted fibers on the floor because I feel the vacuum trying to suck me back in.
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