Venting, updating, just very conflicted right now.

[Lil]

Yeah, I tried the "You're a smart young man you can figure it out" line the other day. The response was, " You always say that nut you don't know what I'm dealing with.". So annoying. Advice is shot down, bit he can't deal on his own. Just another example of his defeatist attitude.

Sent using ConductDisorders mobile app

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

Lil, about the manipulation....

I could be very wrong. As we are always saying here, consider what you find comforting or valuable, and let the rest go.

...telling us someone else thought it was nice we didn't turn our backs completely. We think it's awfully dam nice of us too. lol

It was an eerie chill, a feeling thing. I could be wrong as wrong could be...but it feels wrong, what your son said.

It has to do with holding a bone out. The pain (agony, really) of the lengths you and husband have had to go to for this child, the rage and shame and just plain WTF of what is happening...and your child is telling you how nice someone else thinks you are for not turning your backs on him.

The two things don't go together.

Someone may very well have said that true thing...but if they did, would he tell you? Is he likely to be pleased with people who think well of you and badly of him? The statement implied that the child was wrong, and that the parents were generous, kind, and forbearing for putting up with it, for not turning their backs.

If he had said that someone said you were nice for buying the book? I would think that was a true statement. But to say someone said you were nice for not turning your backs on him....

My children play me with exquisite skill. I really do mean exquisite, precisely balanced, consummate skill. Until I learned, here on the site, that it was all designed to get what they wanted which they invariably did, I never once suspected I was being played.

For me, for my kids, any positive emotion provides an in to where I am wide open vulnerable. I want this to be over. I want the bad things to stop.

I desperately want this all to have been a mistake.

If one of my children says anything nice, there is like, a wild leap of hope in my heart that all the badness is over. It feels like my child may have seen the truth at last, through this nice thing someone else said about me and my child is repeating.

Hope.

Hope validates the dream the child represents.

Here is something else I understand from knowing about the things I post about myself, here on the site. Even though I may not know, or maybe, may know but not let myself see the wrongness in something happening with one of my kids, the way I post ~ the things I choose to include ~ those are areas I know, on some level, that I need clarification on. I think alot of us do that. We post to keep ourselves honest. We know something about the way we are seeing a thing isn't right, but we don't know what it is. That you posted this part of your visit with your son to us tells me you suspect this, suspect something ~ tells me that you get it that this doesn't fit.

But then, sometimes, I say too much, like I know any real thing about what is happening in your relationship to your son when really, of course I don't.

I am not really an infallible source of wisdom.

I just play one, here on the site.

:O)

Cedar

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

KNOW THY GROWN CHILD Do what is safe regarding THAT grown child.

I can feel my denial, here. I can feel it. I always wonder what kind of person I could possibly be, to post what I post here, and to think about my own kids this way.

It is a really hard thing to see it.

I go back and forth and generally, feel really badly about who I must be to think like I think.

I suppose that is part of why I collapse and give in, too.

I don't want to be that person it feels like I am when I don't believe in my kids, when I imply that I don't have faith in the future.

Yes.

That is all part of what happens, here.

Cedar

 

[dstc_99]

I guess the word isn't advice. I tend to throw out thoughts. My difficult child won't take advice either. So I don't give it. I just make a comment with the thought I had in it at some random time. Silly stuff like driving down the street and saying "oh look at that car that color reminds me of your comforter". I'm not advising her on what color to paint the room just subliminally hinting that the color might work.

Trust me it so subtle she doesn't get her hackles up but at the same time it might get through and make her pick a wall color that goes with the comforter.

I do the same thing with more important things. Unless it is something I feel needs an immediate response I just keep making those random comments. She will either get it or she won't. If she doesn't it isn't my fault. I made the point of giving her the hints she has to learn to take them or not.

 

[Lil]

Someone may very well have said that true thing...but if they did, would he tell you? Is he likely to be pleased with people who think well of you and badly of him? The statement implied that the child was wrong, and that the parents were generous, kind, and forbearing for putting up with it, for not turning their backs.

Actually, Yes. If there is one thing he does, it's accept that we didn't do anything wrong. He may act like he's entitled to everything most of the time, but there are moments when he shows appreciation. He does acknowledge that we are the victims in this case, that he doesn't deserve our help, that this situation is his fault and that he did wrong. He comes right out and says it frequently.

But acknowledging, unfortunately, doesn't mean he won't do it again. He acknowledged he was wrong the first time he stole from us, left home for a week, came back in tears saying he knew it was unforgivable. We told him nothing was unforgivable and that he could make amends. Of course, in retrospect, he didn't mean it. It didn't stop him from doing the same thing over and over again.

So he says that sort of thing a lot. He just doesn't seem to mean it. Or maybe he just puts that out of his mind when it's not convenient.

FWIW, I was paraphrasing. He didn't use those exact words. It was something more like, "This guy is a former neo-nazi but that's all in his past, he was a marine." He paused and then said something like, "He respects the hell out of you. I've talked to him about you guys and what's going on. He said it's great that you are still around. That most people don't have anyone but themselves."

Or something like that.

Yeah, he totally would tell us that. Not that he wasn't buttering us up. I never thought that he wasn't. In fact, he'd be better at manipulating if he did it more often. He generally grouses and b*tches and yells and complains

For me, for my kids, any positive emotion provides an in to where I am wide open vulnerable. I want this to be over. I want the bad things to stop.

Definitely. And that's the worst part. He's often SO apologetic. He's SO sorry. He knows what he did was horrible. He knows he hurt us deeply. He knows that the stealing was bad but the betrayal was worse. He is trying so hard to be better, to be a better person, to grow up and be a man, to make us proud.

He says these things a LOT, really, and that's what makes it so hard on me.

I don't truly believe he means it.

I WANT to believe him. I want him to be sorry. I want him to be better, be responsible. I want this to be over. I want the bad things to stop. He says the right things. It's very, very hard to keep remembering that he's said these things all before. Definitely the worst part.
.

 

[GuideMe]

You know what dawned on me. My grandparents are the ones who raised me from 10 years and on. If I said something like what your difficult child said to you "my friend really respects you", the SAME thing my difficult child says to me (so weird), my grandparents would tell me to go screw myself. It was actually very hurtful though. Whenever I did try to pay them a compliment or apologize sincerely and most of the time I meant it, they would automatically assume I was trying to BS them, which I did every once in a while, no doubt. But they were not open to anything, at all. My grandmom could be the President of this forum because she detached VERY easily from all of her kids and grandkids that gave her problems, and a lot sooner than 18 years old. I never brought her up yet, but I guess now I just did. My grandmother had no qualms cutting my mother, my uncle and myself right out of her life and out of her thoughts as well. I always wondered how she was able to do that. My grandfather on the other hand, he will be there for you, but he will scream at you like an animal and degrade you. If I even though of saying something like "Yeah Granddad, I know it was my fault, I take the blame, so and so respects you, likes you etc, etc" he would promptly tell me to go eff myself. Here's an example "Don't give me that bullsh*t Gina. You think I'm a god damn idiot??? Go bleep yourself!" Yes, he says those exact words and would go on and on and on. I don't ever say that to my daughter though because I know how that feels. I really had no reason to write this except it just reminded me of some of my past.

 

[GuideMe]

Which suffice to say, I would never say that to them! It was a strange experience to hear my friends be able to apologize and speak rationally with their parents. I would be like, wow. I truly felt like an alien. Also, I never once stole anything or did drugs. They would just say that stuff to me on a whim! Mostly because I couldn't get my life together or meet a nice guy.

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

I truly felt like an alien.

That was a very hard way to grow up.

It would be difficult to know then, as an adult, what requires forgiveness. Or how to begin laying claim to legitimacy, or to belief in ourselves, in our strength, in our capacity to think correctly.

Are you doing alright in working your way through all those things?

I suppose the gift of such an upbringing is that you must have a really well developed bullshoot meter.

:O)

Cedar

 

[BusynMember]

I felt like my entire family were aliens, including me. I had a keen understanding from early on that the family was not "right."

I may have been the only kid in the world who used to wish I'd been adopted (this is the truth) and maybe have another family that would love me one day, but I looked just like my mother. Can't tell you how, in the worst days of my mental illness, how many times I thought of throwing acid on my face, even though my mother (and myself) were considered quite pretty. I just hated looking like her.

I was more GFGish than you, GM. I had no problem telling my parents what I thought of them and we had many fights. And my mother remembered every single one into she died. I was the black sheep because I called everyone out on their crapola.

Me: (as a youngish kid to mother) Mothers aren't supposed to call their children idiots and stupid! You shouldn't do that. Nobody else's mom does that.

Her: YES, THEY DO! PARENTS DO THAT WHEN THEIR KIDS ACT LIKE IDIOTS OR ARE STUPID, JUST LIKE YOU ARE ACTING NOW!

Me: I never hear it when I go to their houses and I asked the kids in my class and they say they don't! They think you're mean to say things like that.

Whoa momma. I was in trouble from early on.

People made fun of me because of the way my mother was, both treating me like a baby (like insisting on walking me to school two blocks away at age ten so a 'bad man' wouldn't get me, and then turning around and calling me horrible names in front of everyone. Trust me, the kids called me the same names that she did).

Oh, well. She taught me to never call my kids names. I have done so less then the fingers on one hand and have always apologized and said I was wrong. At least she taught me how not to be a mother.

 

[GuideMe]

It would be difficult to know then, as an adult, what requires forgiveness. Or how to begin laying claim to legitimacy, or to belief in ourselves, in our strength, in our capacity to think correctly.

Yes, it has been difficult and yes, I have been doing the best I can all of these years to work through it. I've read a lot of psychology, way too much to be honest. I understand all of the reasons why they were the way they were, but I have come to realize, that I will never be all the way over it unless I am validated by them or someone close to the situation who has their respect for some of their wrong doings. They are of the older generation, where they admit nothing, ever. They do no wrong. I have apologized to them over and over again. I know I was a difficult child mean little brat to them. All I ask is for some admition for anything that they might have done to contribute the toxicness.....just to show they care, but that will never happen. I can't be 100% wrong for everything. Anyway, thanks for your loving and kind words Cedar. They mean a lot. And my BS meter is great, lol, but because of my upbringing, I ignored it because I wanted to give everyone a chance, a million times over and believed everybody at their word. I wanted what I never had. It's even more frustrating, that yes, I might have lied here and there, but doesn't everybody? However, I was never known as a liar, so this treatment was very unfair in my eyes. In fact, it made me always want to tell the truth (way too much, I lost a part of my self because I showed people too much just to be believed) just to prove to them that I am not a liar and that got me no where as well. I can never win, anywhere. Story of my life.

 

[Lil]

My life was very different than you ladies. My parents were old enough to be my grandparents. They married at 19 and 35 years old and were married 14 years before they had my brother, 4 more before me. We grew up on a small farm, five miles from the nearest town. I wasn't "popular" as a kid, but I had friends. I drank in my teen years, as did all country kids, but no more than some and less than others. It was always expected I'd go to college. Neither of my parents got through high school and I remember my mom's ambition for me was to have a job where I worked in air conditioning. They just wanted us to be happy. They never talked to me about money. It wasn't until my mom died while I was in law school that I realized that their helping support me was causing them problems. I just expected their help. I usually didn't have to ask. I think the closest they ever got to telling me I was sucking up their money was when I told them I was going to law school...mom literally cried and said, "You'd stay in school forever if you could afford it." I really didn't think about it though...by then I was taking out student loans and they weren't really helping me. My mom died in 1987 ad I still miss her every day. Daddy two years later. He was the best man I'd ever known until I met Jabber.

I can't remember never feeling loved. I'm not saying it was always perfect and of course we had spats. I know I got my butt tanned a time or two. I'm sure I drove them crazy sometimes, but it was never anything but the normal teenage stuff. I literally kissed my parents goodnight every single night until I was out of the house. They were very affectionate and we were very close. When I had a son instead of a daughter, I know that I wouldn't have the same relationship with him I had with my mom...but I expected the closeness, love and respect I had with my mom and dad. That disappointment is hard to get over.

Want to hear the ironic thing? My son would never have been born if they'd have lived longer. They would not have approved of my ex, and I would never have married anyone they didn't approve of while they lived. I love my son with all my heart, that's just strange to me sometimes.

 

[Albatross]

"You're a smart young man you can figure it out" line the other day. The response was, " You always say that nut you don't know what I'm dealing with.".

Well that's true, you probably don't. And he doesn't know what YOU'RE dealing with. But he's a smart young man, and he CAN figure it out, just like YOU figure it out. So we just tell them we know they can, and then we let them figure it out.

I think that's part of growing up, all those times we take that look around, say "Oh *$*&!" when we realize we are in over our head, and then...figure it out.

 

[BusynMember]

I get that answer too. My answer is always, "That's right and it's why YOU have to deal with it. I know you can do it. You're a smart man (emphasis on man)."

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

Want to hear the ironic thing? My son would never have been born if they'd have lived longer. They would not have approved of my ex, and I would never have married anyone they didn't approve of while they lived. I love my son with all my heart, that's just strange to me sometimes.

There is that genetic piece, again.

I am thinking more and more strongly that it really could be possible that our children, difficult child or easy child, are just who and how they genetically are. Risk takers, rebels, sliding scale morality ~ all characteristics which, in some other time (or maybe even in this time, which is also a time of rapid change) contributed to the species' survival. Just as some of us have been evolved hoarding calories to survive times of famine, while others of us burn every calorie just to keep body and soul together, our spirits and personalities, too, may have been genetically predetermined.

Add fooling around with drug use to that propensity for adventure or risk taking and there you are.

My difficult children.

And this is America, after all. We probably have more than our share of risk taking immigrant ancestors in our population.

I remember my mom's ambition for me was to
have a job where I worked in air conditioning.

I love this.

I understand all of the reasons why they were theway they were, but I have come to realize, that I will never be all the way over it unless I am
validated by them or someone close to the situation who has their respect for some of their wrong doings. They are of the older generation, where they admit nothing, ever. They do no wrong. I have apologized to them over and over again.

Try this, Guide Me:

Write each phrase twelve times. The theory is that each of the phrases addresses self perspective, responding to and healing harm filled, negative tapes.

Please also read McKay / Fanning Self Esteem.

In this beautifully written book, the negative tape concept is described simply and clearly enough that we can confront and change those toxic old messages still rolling around in our psyches out of habit. Check them out on YouTube.

Also, check Brene Brown on YouTube and on TED Talks, Guide Me. Brene works with shame and vulnerability. She writes that we need to lean in. Whatever the negative feeling state is, accept and lean in and choose it. This is the way, so she tells us, to authenticity.

Here are the phrases:

I, Guide Me, am the beloved daughter of the most high God.

She, Guide Me, is the beloved daughter of the most high God.

You, Guide Me, are the beloved daughter of the most high God.

Though I read in every religious tradition and so, don't really have a recognizable label for my faith tradition or belief? I did this exercise, and it helped me. It was the strangest thing, how it would come to mind, countering the negative thought I was barely aware of, almost without effort on my part.

So I wrote those same three phrases twelve times for each of my children and for my grandchildren.

It made an amazing difference, and I hope you will try it.

Another so valuable thing for me was to resolve, for one year, to be kinder to myself. That was my only New Year's resolution last year. In the strangest, most unexpected ways, that intention has come to mind a thousand times over this past year.

And so, I have learned to treat myself more gently.

If we can begin the process of healing ourselves, of seeing ourselves differently ~ if we can be more healthy ourselves ~ we can pattern that for our children and grands.

The Power of Now, and A New Earth, by Eckhardt Tolle were also invaluable, and Simple Abundance, by Sarah Ban Breathnack.

Cedar