Visit with difficult child

[JJJ]

K,

I think at this point the best you can do is use the time while difficult child in in Department of Juvenile Justice custody to stabilize your life. Continue working with your therapist, work overtime, look for a new place to live, etc. So that when difficult child is released, you will be in a better place.

 

[klmno]

Thanks, JJJ. I'm trying. I just can't move as fast as others, I guess. The school has been contacting me since Monday afternoon about where to go from here. I asked them on Tues to please give me a little time to digest this but I've already gotten 4-5 emails and phone calls.

Another interesting point- if a kid is injured or in a hospital for physical illness while in detention, that time counts toward time sentenced. If the kid is in a psychiatric hospital, it does not count at all.

 

[klmno]

difficult child's psychiatrist from this last psychiatric hospital stay just called. He wanted to see what happened in court and check on status of Residential Treatment Center (RTC). After I told him what happened, he was clearly shocked. He was saying he was so sorry several times and said he's worried about difficult child. I told him that difficult child had talked to the mental health person there and had tried to come back to psychiatric hospital just for a few days to regroup but they wouldn't let him. He said mental health treatment in detention is superficial at best and if they get to the point of addressing the disruptive behavior that got the kid in there, that's about the most it's going to do. He told me to tell difficult child he asked about him and to hang in there and thaat he'd been praying for us. He really sounded disgusted about the Residential Treatment Center (RTC) thing- see- it was a psychiatric Residential Treatment Center (RTC), for level of care needed. He said the judge could have somehow gotten something in an order that would have prevented me being able to take difficult child out early. I said that's what I thought. He was shocked that the gal told the judge that I couldn't be trusted to not pull difficult child out early, too. I don't know if it's just here or not, but there is a major disconnect between mental health care and the juvenile court system.

I can't believe that no one in this freaking county cares that his gal just went to court and advocated against difficult child getting psychiatric care that a psychiatrist at a psychiatric hospital that THEY put him in said he needed. And I can't believe that his defense attny doesn't get this. All he told me was that if I made any waves about it, the gal would make sure that difficult child went to dss upon release.

 

[Marguerite]

Klmno, I am glad you are continuing to post about this, I really want to know what is happening to you. I may not always respond, because I have too little experience with this (only my sister's adopted son, years ago, and in the Aussie system where we don't have Residential Treatment Center (RTC) anyway). But I do want to know how tings are going and I'm appalled at the way you have been judged.

Appalled, but not surprised, because in this sort of judgement I DO have experience. I copped it when difficult child 1 was younger, his pediatrician was a wannabe shrink who decided to practice his amateur psychiatry on me, and was beginning to blame me for difficult child 1's "problems" which he had already doiagnosed as ADHD. Then he began sayingthat difficult child 1 was suffering form depression as a result of having a mother whose primary problem was serious depression. I said, "What?" and asked him to explain. The doctor then referred to my physical disability, which at that time had a CFS label, and announced that because CFS was a psychiatric condition, that meant it was my way of opting out of having to achieve anything in life.
At that time, CFS had been openly and statistically demonstrated to be a PHYSICAL condition, I had the research paper form a prominient Aussie psychiatrist to prove it (a shrink who has made his name in the field of depression and who STILL insists that CFS is NOT primary depression as cause).

But what was I to do?

At the same time, I was at times depressed, purely because of the disability and having to cope with losing my career and also having a problem child. Who wouldn't be? But that was reactive depression and I was dealing with it.

So I decided I had to shut him up. I referred myself to a psychiatrist, but I looked around for someone with a functioning brain, who had either read the research or had attended seminars given by the depression/CFS expert. I found someone nearby and went to see her. I told her absolutely everything, including any problems form my childhood, as well as current problems with my son's pediatrician. She wrote in her report that although I had experienced somedepression in the past, I had dealt with it effectively and it was not now a problem, despite my PHYSICAL disability.

With that report, I was able to go back to the pediatrician and say, "Don't argue with me about whether or not I am the problem - here is a piece ofpaper form somone much more qualified than you, saying that you are wrong."

In my case the pediatrician continued to accuse me of being the problem, but due to the report, he had now lost credibility.


In my advocacy for other patients with various disabilities, I have seen the alternative reaction - where a parent was accused, and instead of standing & facing it and challenging the statement by getting an expert assessment, they chose to run and hide. They would move their child from doctor to doctor, and whenever a doctor said something the parent didn't like, of felt was a slur on the parent's character or the parent's (or child's) state of mind, the parent changed doctors. Again and again. The trouble was, long-term disability DOES lead to problems of depression and related psychological stuff and it DOES need to be addressed. it's not necessarily cause, it's effect. But it still needs to be addressed, not evaded.

The parent who avoids getting these things checked out, risks beinglabelled as the problem. Maybe even after getting the checks done, they can still be blamed; but not with the same degree of certainty.

Confront the accusation by gathering evidence that it is wrong. You shouldn't have to prove your sanity, or your state of mental health or ability/willingness to help your son, but since it has been challenged - then go ahead, call their bluff. A clean bill of mental health, in writing, from a psychiatrist, should shut up the PO and the GAL. If it doesn't shut them up - then every time they open their mouths, they will be displaying their bias and bigotry. And even that will be a win.

Marg

 

[klmno]

Thanks, Marg. I am seeing a therapist and the gal knows it. She could have questioned me about it under oath but didn't. She didn't hesitate to get up before the judge and say that I would not address my own issues, though. This is why I believe it's really not their point to get to the truth of things or that they are being objective. I don't think they will be satisfied with that, since I really believe the aim is to get me court ordered treatment- that way they have access to my mental health records and if I were to miss an appointment, they could take me before the judge. I am going to offer to let them do a COMPLETE assesment on me though- but I'm not doing just one written personality test.

And again, the relationship between me and gal and po didn't start out good, then me doing something confrontational or defiant or anything causing it to go bad- the gal called dss right away- even though she was assigned to help me get difficult child more mental health treatment. difficult child's out-patient psychiatrist ended up writing a letter to the judge saying that it would be detrimental to difficult child to take him from my custody. All this was 2 years ago. And, now we are going thru the same scrutiny again- this is why I don't think it's going to stop without something major happening. I had offered before to have a "sit-down" to talk about things and get any doubts cleared up, but they never responded at all or even acknowledged my offer.

Then, instead of doing ONE thing to help get difficult child more mental health treatment, the gal filed a chins to get it in a court order that I get mental health treatment for difficult child. Ok. I had and have been doing that. Now, who's standing in the way of doing what the psychiatrist recommended? The PO and the GAL. So, if I had not taken him to an appointment, I would have been breaking a court order, but they can completely ignore that difficult child needs a different level of care and no one holds them accountable. And the PO was standing in the way before this charge. I tried to discuss this with the defense attny- he just said he didn't know anything about mental health stuff. That's what PO's super said, too. The defense attny also works as a gal. So, basicly, NO person over there gets the mental health issue here. Their idea of mental health treatment is a behavior contract. I tried 2 years ago to find an attny who knew about mental health issues AND the Department of Juvenile Justice system. I couldn't find a single one. I don't think it's about them wanting to make sure he gets care- I think it's about them wanting to be in charge of everything, without them having to be held accountable no matter what. Look at the PO- she claims I refused mst because I asked judge to change the order to recommendations by state expert and the judge did. The PO never returned a call from a psychiatric hospital difficult child was in, but that's ok.

I would call the sw and asked if she would do a certificate of need for Residential Treatment Center (RTC) if difficult child were released, then if she agreed, have the defense attny appeal this judgement. But, they have so worried that everyone in this county is already convinced that I'm the problem and not to work with me. They can hate me all they want, but someone should look at whether or not their actions and recommendations and judgement are clouded by their personal feelings for me. And- what the gal went and told my son before court- well, if that had been done by the other parent fighting for custody, that parent could get in trouble for trying to turn the kid against the first parent. It's called "parental alienation" and it can be used against a person in court- unless of course, it's done by someone in their own system.

 

[Wiped Out]

K,
I've never been in this position so don't really feel comfortable giving advice but wanted to let you know that you and your difficult child continue to be in my prayers.

 

[Marguerite]

Can you get your therapist to write a report for the judge, basically saying that your mental health is not an issue in your son's case? That should undermine GAL & PO trying to get you to a court-appointed person. I do see exactly why you're avoiding that - you do not want your mental health records in the hands of people who do not have the necessary medical training nor your interests at heart.

But a written report should block their efforts. Although tyou've probably already thought of that.

Marg

 

[klmno]

She wrote one but I never presented it because the judge was not prepared to address this issue on Monday- much to the gal's dismay. Once I find out when my court date will be, I might ask her to write another one. I am conceding that I have intermittent depression and anxiety issues. Of course, this might or might not be contributing to difficult child's issues. difficult child's psychiatrist from psychiatric hospital said we'd need family therapy to determine if I'm handling things in a way that's effecting difficult child, and I'm fine with that if difficult child is out of the home until we get past a few "hurdles". But, I'm not going to be a happy person if they try to court order something- like medications- for something- like familial tremors- that has NO effect on difficult child and in no way could make him commit illegal activities. The gal asked me about this last year while I was tesifying- she said "well, what if it embaresses him". I said "tough". And besaides, since it is hereditary, what if his hands start shaking at some point (which ocassionally they do)- shouldn't he be raised by someone who can help him deal with it instead of being ashamed of it?

Anyway- the gal is trying to justify all this by saying that I am not dealing with my issues- but notice- she knows I am and did not question me about it Monday because then the judge would know I am and the gal would no longer be able to make that statement to everyone in court. IOW, many people in the court room know that I'm seeing a therapist- and they ALL know that I took myself in the past. But, the judge does not know that I'm seeing a therapist right now- it never came up and didn't seem to matter. The GAL, though, started saying in court that I refused to deal with my own issues. She said this after I was off the witness stand so I could not refute it- I had to remain quiet. The judge has no way to know differently or doubt the gal until I get back in the court room and can tell her. The GAL knows I am- she's lieing- she's doing it to make me look bad and get the judge to order me into treatment- because of course, the judge is thinking that I am refusing it.

Frankly, though, I've told a couple of people that it doesn't matter what issues I have, it does not justify difficult child holding a knife near my throat and he needs to learn that this is no excuse- he doesn't need to hear people in a court saying that it's because his mom has issues, in my humble opinion. What happens when he's married someday and his wife has some issues? Does that give him reason to pull a knife on her? I think THEY are enabling him.

 

[Jena]

HI

I"m sorry i've been so gone lately and just in to vent on occassion.

i'm so glad he's doing better i really am. you must be so relieved. I'm so sorry that the system is how it is and that sometimes parents who are good and diligent get caught in the unnecessary mess get pegged and looked at and questioned for all the other parents who dont care.

sending you hugs you have been through so much and handled it all so well.

 

[Marguerite]

See - that's the difference between our legal systems. If they do that here in Australia (ie bring up something like that, make a statement that needs to be challenged) then your legal people have the right at that pointto say, "Point of order - we need to recall Klmno to answer that point." Or alternatively, that moment is used to present to the court acopy of your therapist report demonstrating that you ARE dealing with your own issues and asking the GAL on what basis she has made such a statement.

You need someone there whose job it is to challenge such falsehoods, because otherwise the judge is making decisions based on wrong information.

if that isn't possible with your legal system - then ugh, I don't know what more I can suggest.

Marg

 

[klmno]

Supposedly we have laws like that here, too. If I'm charged with something and it's taken to court, both sides are supposed to be heard. In juvenile court, a lot more is left up to the judge, but still, she'll usually hear both sides out. BUT, if you are the parent of a juvenile and you are only in the room because your kid is on trial, the attny's can get up there and say whatever they want about the family and the family has no legal right to say anything. If I'd had an attny with me, the judge might have given him/her a chance to speak. But, I would have had to pay for that attny. The judge can order the family/parent to do almost anything under the pretense that it is supportive of the rehabilitation of the juvenile, even though the parent never had a chance to clarify, object, explain, or corrrect anything presented by someone else in court. I think this is the GAL's method in court- to take advantage of this. It appears from our history with her that she does minimal work for the kid before court, then goes to court and blames me. The whole time she has been involved with us, she males assumptions or hears something from someone else and instead of checking out the vallidity, she'll go to court and state it as fact. in my humble opinion, this is contrary to what is in the child's best interest. Also, it appears that her goal is to keep the "system" overseeing the difficult child as long as possible, even though difficult child needs a plan and hope of getting out of the system as a motivator and keeping him in the system is usually seen as a lack of success by others outside the system. You know the other discussions on the board about the government taking over our lives? I really don't think the GAL trusts me or any family to raise difficult child with the system overseeing it.

Getting back to the original point- this is another reason I'm glad I broke that court order. It means I will be going to court to answer charges, with a court appointment attny, so MAYBE a few other points can get thrown in to clarify some things to the judge.

It looks so bad when a GAL is standing in court pointing a finger at the end of an out-stretched arm, directly at a parent and saying "THAT is the problem, THAT parent cannot be trusted, it's hard to tell what a psychiatric test might have revealed about what is really going on that is causing these thiings in difficult child", etc., that people are so shocked they never get to the next thought of "is that true?, what facts are those opinions based on?, etc". People assume that since this is difficult child's gal speaking and it's her job to find out what is in difficult child's best interest and be objective, that she MUST have valid reason to say that and it MUST be true. I could probably take about anyone else outside the system to court for slandering me with valid reason, but apparently, there is no recourse. It hurts- especially since difficult child was in the room hearing this and I know she had no reason to say those things. Maybe she really does believe them, but she has no reason to believe them, either. That's why I don't know what to do about it.

In social-psychiatric 101 class, we discussed how sometimes people have a negative impression about someone and then keep their eyes open about that person, ask questions, etc, to check out if the negative opinions are really valid or not. In those cases, negative impressions can be changed, although it might be a difficult pain. Then, there are times when people just don't like or trust someone and it will never change. In those ccases, it doesn't matter what the other person does, it will not cchange because the person't opinion is not based on anything done or not dopne, it is based on their own internal beliefs or whatever. The way you can tell which situation you are dealing with is that if the person is giving you NO chance to address the concerns in a realistic way, then you are dealing with a situation where the opinion is not going to change. If the claim is that you can't be trusted but they want you to jump thru hoops all the time, it won't help- that won't make a person change and trust you.

Think about some personal couple relationships where a woman wants to know where the man is 24/7 and claims the relationship would work if he would do ABCDEF and not mind if the woman was always checking up on him. He can try that and she might really believe this, but the relationship still won't work because that isn't the problem. The problem is that she doesn't trust him and living like that is not going to make her change her internal feelings. She has to choose herself whether or not to trust him.

I honestly believe that I'm dealing with the same sort of situation. I spent too much time clarifying, testifying and answering questions, doing exactly what they wanted, and trying to work things out. It hasn't changed a single thing. Now, they want more from me and are telling difficult child it's my fault that he's where he is because I drew a line in the sand. Until the people who feel the way they do realize and own up to the fact that they have those negative feelings and there is nothing the other person can do to change them, it all seems a waste of time. Just like the couple I used as an example above- if the woman realizes that the real problem is that she doesn't trust this man, then the next step is for her to decide if SHE can change or not. If not, the relationship is over. In this case, if something doesn't make a light bulb go off in GAL"s mind about what is really in difficult child's best interest, she'll make sure he never comes home. I don't think there's anything I can do.

Maybe the judge can see through it at some point- the judge was the ONLY person in the room older than me. All the other players in this are about 10 or more years younger than me, except for maybe the bailaff. I noticed that after the GAL kept going off about me, the judge looked at her and told her that it had nothing to do with this- meaning that we were there about difficult child's sentencing. Of course, the judge may never look beyond the fact that the GAL is an attny that she works with on a regular basis and probably trusts. I'm not holding my breath that the judge is going to decide that the GAL is being unfair to the parent- that there is NOTHING to show that the parent is really that way and should be trusted, in spite of the GAL's persoonal feelings. I just wish SOMEONE in the system would realize that making decisions for difficult child based on those personal feelings about me instead of concentrating on him and his best interest is what is going on and needs to be change.

 

[DDD]

by the way, CASA and GAL programs are extremely similar. In some states attorneys are used to represent "the best interests of the child" and in other states, like Florida, it is done by volunteers who have x amount of training. There are outstanding CASA and GAL representatives and there are total losers (both attorneys and volunteers). It is the luck of the draw which one your child gets but you will never get one who is or can be overly impacted by the opinions or feelings of the biological parent.

As a retired volunteer GAL I can attest to the fact that on more than one occasion I paced my home during the night because there was not "a bad guy" to compare to "a good guy". Very often it is normal people who think their way it the best idea. I was literally surrounded in the Courthouse hallway by a large family who sensed I was going to recommend that their baby be sent to live with another branch of the family. I was fearful. I did make that recommendation and it was followed. It was, in my humble opinion, "in the best interests of the child." I recommend that two children living happily with a loving grandparent locally be reunited with their bioDad out of State. I literally vomited because I was a grandparent raising a child I loved. I could only imagine the pain. It was my last case because it took such a terrible emotional toll on me. The children adjusted to the paternal family and have grown up healthy and happy. The maternal grandmother,a lovely woman, was so distraught that she sold her business months after court.

Also, it is a requirement here in juvenile cases that written reports be submited well in advance of Court by all the parties to the case. The Judge makes the decision but very often everyone knows in advance what is going to happen in Court. Although it sounds like a conspiracy, in actuality it prevents last minute drama and capriciousness in choices that will impact children for a lifetime.

GALs, CASAs, POs are outsiders trying to make decisions on family life impacts on children. Your son is alive, is safe, is going to be in a safe structured environment and needs to focus on his future. A new chapter has begun and I hope that you both can move on and adjust. Rehashing the past is counterproductive for you and will stunt the growth of your son, in my humble opinion. DDD

 

[klmno]

DDD, I'm sure you were a wonderful GAL, but as you pointed out, not all of them are and sometimes it is just that they can't possibly know what is in the kid's best interest if they aren't looking deeper than what's on the surface, whether they have 20-40 hours training or not. At the risk of being chastised for re-hashing again, I will offer this first-hand experience of something that we lived thru 2 years ago.

difficult child was on trial for the brush fire and B&E. He had already been in mental health care and this incident happened within 10 days of having prozac doubled. I had told the arraigning judge that I had tried to get more mental health care for difficult child but couldn't, so the judge ordered the GAL to get involved. The GAL looks at difficult child's charges and his trouble at school and immediately called in dss to do a social assessment to see if anything was going on in the home- this is not the same as CPS investigation, but a review to see if there are family issues. Anyway, this spurred my bro, who had ALWAYS wanted custody because he'll never have a child, to start calling everyone in this county trying to get custody by bad-mouthing me and the GAL spoke to him on the phone several times.

At difficult child's first trial for these charges, there were no charges on me- I was there as his mother so I was not allowed to speak. DSS announced that they found NO reason to place difficult child outside of the home. The GAL announced to the judge that difficult child had a myspace page and an email address with a name in poor taste and that she was concerned about the home environment.

It took nearly a year before I had a chance to speak in court and address that. I was, fortunately, allowed to ask the GAL in front of the judge if she had ever asked difficult child if I allowed him to have these things on the computer and where he learned how to do them. I was finally able to let the judge know that it was my bro who had taught difficult child these things, behind my back after I had told both of them that I didn't allow it, and it was my bro who turned around and told the GAL about them to try to make me look bad- he didn't tell her of course, that he's the one that taught difficult child how to do it. She wanted proof- I told her to ask difficult child who taught him how to do those things, because I knew I wouldn't have had a clue how to. And the proof of the deceit- difficult child had already told me that his uncle had set him up because NO ONE knew he'd done those things except my bro- the one who taught him how to do it. Did GAL advocate for or even open a single door for me to get difficult child more mental health care like she was assigned to do? No. Not one.

On the surface, yes, it looked like difficult child was doing these things in the home, so it must be the mom allowing it and the uncle is trying to save the kid. Rather than asking me about it, the GAL told the judge when I had no chance to respond. The judge thought I was a horrible parent. The truth was that my bro was manipulating the carp out of several people, including difficult child. So, who's in the best interest of the child? And this is an uncle that tried to molest me as a teen. But, how could the GAL know that when she was not even discussing any of her communications or thoughts to have difficult child sent there with me? If she doesn't know who to believe- how about lie detector tests?

Did GAL advocate for or even open a single door for me to get difficult child more mental health care like she was assigned to do? No. Not one. But I ended up with a court order to provide it. This is only one example- there are many similar situations we've gone thru like this with this GAL. I can't begin to tell you the thousands of dollars I have spent and lost going thru carp this gal has lead us into with "her opinion". That was money that could have been spent for difficult child's care, restitution, etc. And for what? To still be going thru it. It costs this GAL NOTHING to go into court and throw out her opinion. All she does is run from courtrooom to courtroom doing stuff like that- she's a court appointment attny, assigned to be a gal and give her opinion. And yes I have rubbed her the wrong way- I asked her questions and clarify things in front of the judge every chance I get.

No offense to anyone, but being a GAL does not give one the all-knowing wisdom and insight of God. And if they aren't willing to discuss things with parents who have no arrest record, no accusation of abuse or neglect, have clearly advocated for the child, provided for the child, etc, they might just be a detriment to the child themselves.

Ok, I'll get off my soap box now.

 

[DDD]

My point wasn't that I was a wonderful GAL, my point was that it is a toss up and "even" when someone like me tries their very best it is difficult and very stressful to represent the "best interests of the child" objectively. The GAL appointed to your child may be a complete loser...BUT, even if she is a loser, her perception of what was best differs from the parental view of what's best. How much your bro entered into it, I don't know. If the GAL really did her best, I don't know. Based on your posts she has been able to maintain a relationship with your son. That sounds like she is trying...even if misdirected, lol.

My CD friend, the bottom line is that the Court date is over. You truly can not change what has happened and it is like attacking windmills to even keep trying to revisit it. It is helping nobody to hash and rehash what should have been or could have been. My two cases were posted to show that "playing God" with a child's life is not easy even when you are an honest person trying your best. It made me cry, pace and vomit.

Life experience tells me that you need to put on blinders to the past and move forward for your sake and very importantly for yours son's too. DDD

 

[klmno]

DDD, I wasn't being sarcastic when I said you probably were a good GAL- I really do think you probably were.

difficult child's court date is over, but this mess with the other people in the system is not. I thought their involvement from this point on would be minimal and short-lived but I have learned otherwise.

As a side note: this GAL is the only experience I have with this kind of stuff and I truly don't know how it differs in other areas, if any. We do have both GAL's and CASA workers here. The GAL's for kids have to be licensed attny's and they have legal requirements to investigate facts and present them to to the court and advocate for what they think is in the kid's best interest- after investigating and evaluating and talking to the kid and all parties. The CASA worker, if there is one (usually only in cases of abuse or neglect- and in addition to the GAL), meets with the family and the child- maybe with a sw or sd too- and makes a recommendation to the court, along with the GAL. We don't have a CASA person involved. The judge generally rules on what the GAL recommends- however, apparently NO ONE holds the GAL accountable and makes sure he/she really did investigate, etc.

 

[DDD]

Good golly, lol, I didn't take that as sarcasm. I was trying to indicate that sometimes GAL's really try and they end up choosing the lesser of evils or feeling that although a parent loves the child a change is important to get a different direction going. I also wanted you to know that there was likely not a conspiracy to exclude you in this case, that the decisions are most often hashed out before open Court. Mostly (yes I know what the word redundant means ) I wanted to encourage you again to let go of the "what ifs" and focus on what will be sometime in the future....and please don't obsess on exactly when in the future.

Yep, I know it is hard. I have no walked in your shoes but I have walked in similar shoes. You can do it. DDD

 

[ML]

I am glad he is doing better. What a great attitude he has. He needs you, KLMNO. He is still your precious son. Despite all the things he has done from the disease, he needs his mom.

I think it's great that you will start back to work part time. I agree, full time would be too much and this will be a great way to test the waters.

I can only imagine the emotional toll these past couple years have taken my friend. Everyone here cares so much about you. If we don't always do our best to show that, please have patience with us. It's hard to be powerless.

Love and hugs,

ML

 

[klmno]

Thank you! I am taking the dogs to the groomers today and running errands. I am thinking about running by a library or book store later- depending on how much time the other stuff takes. I'll be able to visit difficult child again this weekend. I hope I can find some motivation to clean, LOL!! My therapist told me to just work on making sure I slept and ate each day and did one or two things that absolutely have to be done to start out with, so I think I'm doing ok considering it hasn't even been a week yet. I also need to research a little to prepare for a meeting the sd absolutely has to have next week- that WAS sarcastic. LOL!