Waiting for the rain to start....

[Mikey]

Okay, so in preparation....

How does one go about finding a "good" facility, dual-diagnosis or otherwise? I do a search of substance abuse facilities in my insurance plan, and I get three pages. Of course, all their web sites have glowing recommendations from "alumni", but how do you really know?

If - IF my son ends up needing (and agreeing to) treatment in a Residential Treatment Center (RTC), we're only going to get one good chance with him. If it sucks for him, doesn't help, then he'll come out worse than before, AND he'll completely ditch us for convincing him to go. General consensus is that he'll be worse off than before he went in, and will probably relapse harder than before he went in as well (out of sheer spite, if nothing else).

So, how to choose? How to know which facility? Such an important decision, if it has to be made......

Any help appreciated.

Thanks,
Mikey

 

[hearthope]

Sorry if this sounds harsh but I have got to respond

Your earlier post suggest that the group of parents you want to help just threw the poor kids out on the street, is that your opinion of parents that make difficult children leave the house? The parents don't care enough to "fix" the problem?

In another post you say that if you send your son off it will change the family dynamics, I agree! He will see that you are his parent and not his friend. That parents teach the rules to live by and they must be followed. That smoking pot or cooking hash or whatever it is he is doing to get stoned is against the law and when you break the law you are punished.

I am sorry to be so blunt, but Mikey you seem determined to see things through rosey glasses, when the painting is on the wall.

Let me just end by saying that you have a easy child daughter that is soaking this all up!!! Regardless if you think she is sheltered from it, she knows much more than you think. You are letting her witness her bro getting away with disrupting family plans and worse getting high, she knows. In her eyes, won't she be able to do the same thing? You let her brother do it.

I am sorry again for the bluntness, but I wish I had had someone be so blunt with me in the beginning, maybe we could have gotten where we are now sooner.

You can't really compare glamorized t.v. shows to real life. They are in it for the ratings.

I would also weigh the advice of the members of this board that have lived through these times more than I would the advice of docs. Again, I am speaking from experience of doing everything the clueless docs said!!!

 

[hearthope]

I am still on the soapbox and I am sorry.

I don't understand a therapist that is okay with your son using drugs and is only trying to figure out how to get him out of the monkey trap.

EVERYone's life is a monkey trap. We all have to make the choices to let go or stay trapped with everything in life.

Just remember that he is 17. I chased the last birthday too, if you read PE archives. Realize that even though you are allowing his drug use, the police will not. If, no, When he is caught by them it will be out of your control.

Trust me, you would rather put him in treatment of YOUR choice now, then to have the court order treatment of THEIR choice later

 

[CAmom]

Hearthope, I've only occasionally responded on this thread because reading these posts reminds me SO, SO much of where my husband and I were a year or so ago in terms of our son's marijuana use--at least, in our case--denial, in terms of the significant impact that this was having on our son, specifically his growth, emotionally and otherwise, and also on our family in general.

We, like many others, thought that we were making it very clear to our son that marijuana and any other drugs would not be tolerated in our home. In fact, our own ambivalent feelings about pot (although we didn't see that this was the case at the time...), I truly believe, made our responses to our son's pot use similarly ambivalent.

Those of you who know our story know that I was trying my darndest to put a good face on what was basically a disaster waiting to happen, and that, several times, I found the "take no prisoner's approach" of some of you on the boards very difficult to accept. Yet, again, in retrospect, I can see now that you, much better than I, because you had been through it, could so CLEARLY see where our son and our family were headed and that, because you cared, you certainly weren't going to baby me through the process. And, you were right, and I very much appreciate your forthrightness.

I only wish now that we had taken the advice of many of you and issued an ultimatum about drug use with clear consequences should he chose to continue using them. Unfortunately, because of not wanting to "rock the boat" and upsetting the status quo, such as it was, we didn't follow through, and our son quickly figured out that we, while telling him every day that we would not tolerate drugs, in fact, did so by not taking any sort of proactive route.

We can see now that this diminished us in his eyes, and we lost some of what little amount of respect he had for us. Just my 2 cents...

 

[KFld]

It sounds like Mikey is open to options, if he feels the way him and wife are approaching things doesn't work. I remember, as I'm sure a lot of you will, the confusion of what is right and wrong when you first get into this mess. Reading his posts brings me back to when my difficult child was 15 and just smoking pot. I remember trying to keep him from certain friends that I felt were the bad influence on him, just to find out years later, he was probably the bad influence on some of them, or just as guilty I should say. They all make the choices of who they are going to hang with and what they are and aren't going to participate in. I'm sure nobody held my son down and forced a joint in his mouth and told him he had to continue doing it everyday or else! I also remember thinking that he would grow out of it just like I did. Yes I was a big huge pothead in highschool and I grew out of it and I remember many discussions with my husband, who I was smoking pot with in highschool :smile: and the two of us saying, he's a smart kid, he'll grow out of it.

I also remember when we first suspected he was using heroin and before we had proof we kept thinking, if he is he's smart, he'll stop. Then when he got arrested for posession of heroin the first time and admitted he had a problem, we sent him to rehab. I joined alanon and listened to the parents talk who had learned to detatch and had asked their kids to leave their homes because of their drug use, and I remember saying, I will never do that no matter what my son does. That was about 2 months before I threw him out.

My difficult child is now 6 months clean after many rehabs and lives in a soberhouse never to live in our home again. He is happy right now, working and loves us and respects us for the choices we made. He doesn't hate us or disprespect us for it, but I think it's because he's ready to make the choices and changes he has been making in his life.

What I am trying to get at is that we have all been there done that, at least I know I have. I went through the denial stage, the stage of believing he would grow out of it, the stage of having to detatch and then the stage of accepting my son was a drug addict and that there was nothing I could do for him. He had to do it himself.

Mikey, this entire thing is a process that we all learn and grow from. Some of our stories turn out better then others. I pray what you are doing for your son does work and he turns his life around before it gets any worse, and I also pray that you have the strength to do what you need to if he doesn't turn it around by himself.

We want you to learn from what we have been through, but I also understand what point you are at now because I remember being there. If you feel what you are doing has a chance of working and you are seeing progress, then follow your heart. Just be strong enough to do whatever it takes if, as you say, he starts going south.

 

[Terryforvols]

Mikey--

This may be none of my business, but what exactly does your difficult child's therapist think of his drug use and what does he suggest? Per some of the things you say, he seems to be willing to tolerate it, which I find totally unbelievable for a therapist. Do you mind answering this -- just curious?!

 

[Mikey]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hearthope</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Your earlier post suggest that the group of parents you want to help just threw the poor kids out on the street, is that your opinion of parents that make difficult children leave the house? The parents don't care enough to "fix" the problem?</div></div>

First off, I didn't say those parents "threw their kids out on the street". Maybe I was a bit snarky, but what I meant was they weren't trying to impose any control or help their kids at all. And I say that based on my own son's interaction with both these other kids AND their families.

Second, I didn't want to "help" anyone. I learned about that from a previous 12-step program. What I originally wanted to do was set up a local FA group, and let them know it was available if they wanted to participate. Nothing more, no evangalism, just trying to set up a local support group that would be easy for them to attend. The "help" would be available, if they chose to use it.

Most of those parents are obviously in the same boat as I am (except for the one who actively encouraged and participated in his daughter's behaviour). For whatever reason, they've either given up or lost hope. My point was that I didn't know if any of the rest of them knew that any help was available, or even thought about getting help for themselves.

Also, I'd never disparage what another parent here has done when working through their own difficult child issues. Even though I haven't "thrown my difficult child out the door", I may end up doing just that six months from now. All I meant was that I wasn't at that point yet..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In another post you say that if you send your son off it will change the family dynamics, I agree! He will see that you are his parent and not his friend. That parents teach the rules to live by and they must be followed. That smoking pot or cooking hash or whatever it is he is doing to get stoned is against the law and when you break the law you are punished.</div></div>

I agree. But I'm also realistic, know my own son, and am trying to follow a path that has so far shown some level of success. Since (a) I can't forcibly keep him locked in the house, (b) I can't keep him from doing these things outside of my home, and (c) I'm not ready yet to "throw him out the door" if he doesn't stop, I have to find another way.

by the way I already tried the "my way or the highway" tactic with the drugs and acting out. He chose the highway, and when he came back he continuously rebelled against any authoritarian demands. When I then sought my own help, I realized that I had to change my tactics and work with him, since he'd already discarded the "parent/<u>child</u>" relationship model in his own mind. My own personal choice was to try and interact with him as a young adult. And so far, for me and my family, we've had some success (and hope to have more).

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am sorry to be so blunt, but Mikey you seem determined to see things through rosey glasses, when the painting is on the wall.</div></div>

I don't disagree, and that's why I'm here. Even if I don't choose to use the information given by others right now, that doesn't mean it isn't valuable - it is, and I'm glad to have both the information and experience offered by others here. But I will use what I get in the way I think is best. Maybe I'll be proven wrong, maybe not. But again - for now - we're on a bit of an upswing, and I want to continue that momentum because my son is actually participating instead of having it crammed down his throat.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Let me just end by saying that you have a easy child daughter that is soaking this all up!!! Regardless if you think she is sheltered from it, she knows much more than you think. You are letting her witness her bro getting away with disrupting family plans and worse getting high, she knows. In her eyes, won't she be able to do the same thing? You let her brother do it.</div></div>

been there done that, already working with my daughter on this - constantly. Will discuss if you want, but suffice it to say she knows that while we can no longer actively control what her brother does, we don't condone it and won't tolerate it in her, either. Also, while she may be "soaking up" the fact that her bro is "getting away" with things, I'm also making sure she isn't insulated from the pain his acting out is causing the rest of the family. That's a perspective my son doesn't have (or chooses not to have), examining the effect of his poor choices on those around him.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am sorry again for the bluntness, but I wish I had had someone be so blunt with me in the beginning, maybe we could have gotten where we are now sooner.</div></div>

Don't apologize - I knew what I was getting into when I joined CD. I'm tired of people walking on eggshells around me. Bluntness is what I wanted, and I appreciate both the info you offer and the life experience behind what you offer.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would also weigh the advice of the members of this board that have lived through these times more than I would the advice of docs. Again, I am speaking from experience of doing everything the clueless docs said!!! </div></div>

On that, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. His docs are the only ones who got through to him about his health, and so far they're the only ones who have helped us see any kind of positive change in his life. Is everything great? Hell no! Is it getting better? Maybe, in small ways. But in comparison to the other kids he hangs out with, they keep slipping further while he's now at least holding his own. It's progress I can accept, and will continue to work with.

But in the end, I feel I must apologize to you. By the tone of your post, I seem to have offended you in some way that I don't understand - but I accept that it happened, and am truly sorry. I do not now, and will not disparage or look down on any other parent's travails with their own difficult child's. There but for the grace of God Almighty go I...

I don't have to come to CD to hear horror stories of difficult child's who ruined their lives, or of parents who tried everything they could to help - and ultimately had to let go. My own family tree for three generations is littered with difficult child's who either limited or ruined their lives. In a few cases, there wasn't help for them then. But in most cases, their problems occurred because of their own poor choices, defiance of authority, and refusal to accept help (or acknowledge they even needed help until it was too late).

I don't come to CD to hear stories of pain. I come here to hear stories of hope, and listen to what worked (or didn't work) for others, and try to apply what I've learned in the best way possible. As I've done that, I've posted here about it. If anything I've said - or how I've said it - offended you, I am deeply sorry and offer my most humble apologies.

We are, all of us, in this together, and I appreciate your willingess to step up and say something. Thank you very, very much.

Sincerly,
Mike

 

[Mikey]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hearthope</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't understand a therapist that is okay with your son using drugs and is only trying to figure out how to get him out of the monkey trap.</div></div>

Nobody is "okay" with it, and his therapist has already said that if he doesn't continue to make progress then an intervention (and possible involuntary Residential Treatment Center (RTC)) may be needed. Just not yet, since he's making progress and cutting down. His docs may even be able to give him reasons to quit that he'll accept (they got him off cigs, which I never thought would happen). So, we're waiting to see if the progress can continue with his participation - which is better than against his will.

Also, we're still working under the assumption that the pot is a symptom, not the primary issue. It sure doesn't help, though, and may have to be addressed so we can actually get to the "real" issues.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Trust me, you would rather put him in treatment of YOUR choice now, then to have the court order treatment of THEIR choice later </div></div>

Agreed. We'll see where the next few months bring us.

Mikey

 

[Mikey]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mikey, this entire thing is a process that we all learn and grow from. Some of our stories turn out better then others. I pray what you are doing for your son does work and he turns his life around before it gets any worse, and I also pray that you have the strength to do what you need to if he doesn't turn it around by himself.

We want you to learn from what we have been through, but I also understand what point you are at now because I remember being there. If you feel what you are doing has a chance of working and you are seeing progress, then follow your heart. Just be strong enough to do whatever it takes if, as you say, he starts going south.</div></div>

Thanks, KFld. Somewhere else on CD I read where parents with difficult child's go through the grieving process, just as if their child had died (and in many ways, maybe they did). We went through the denial phase ("not my son"), the anger phase ("how could you do this", and "you better change your ways or else"). Not sure what's next, but I'm sure that's where we're headed.

One other thing: I guess the point that I haven't gotten across is that with my son, the parent/child relationship is dead. Acting like a "parent", making demands, threats, throwing lines in the sand, been there done that for six months, even threatened to call Juvie and get them involved. He disappeared into the night for three days, stayed drunk the whole time. In short, it didn't work; my behaviour not only didn't stop him from acting out, it provoked his anger and gave him even MORE reasons to act out (at least he saw it that way).

So whether it's my fault, his fault, or nobody's fault, he doesn't see himself as the "child" in a parent/child relationship any more. And any attempt I make to treat him as such only provokes an immediate and profound ODD response.

So, what do I do? Even if I wanted to, I couldn't "throw him out" - state law says he's my albatross until he's 18 or out of HS, whichever comes later. Force him into Residential Treatment Center (RTC) against his will? Maybe, but if that happens then most likely he will play the game, get out, then disappear. If possible, the best approach is one where he is willing to participate and make progress.

Don't misunderstand me, though. There may come a time when we're forced to consider doing something that he'll resent for for the rest of his life, but is in his best interest. If/when that point comes, I'll make the choice that needs to be made.

There may also come a time when we're forced to consider doing something that's in our best interest, because he refuses to engage and address the issues impacting our lives and relationships. Again, if/when that point comes, I'll make the choice that needs to be made.

As you said, two months after you said you could never ask your difficult child to leave, you did just that. For now, we're not at that point, maybe tomorrow, but not today.

Thanks,

Mikey

 

[Mikey]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Terryforvols</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mikey--

This may be none of my business, but what exactly does your difficult child's therapist think of his drug use and what does he suggest? Per some of the things you say, he seems to be willing to tolerate it, which I find totally unbelievable for a therapist. Do you mind answering this -- just curious?! </div></div>

Therpist thinks pot is a symptom, not the primary issue. Tolerate isn't the right word - damage control while trying to address the real issues is a better description. Real issues are untreated ADD, probably ODD, very poor self image and lack of self confidence (all of which he's had since he was 5yo, so it isn't the pot causing these things).

Again, nobody has implicitly or explicitly given him any reason to think we "tolerate" pot. That would mean we accept his use of it, just not around us. We constantly tell him that we don't like it, that it's bad for him, that it's bad for us, and that there are real consequences he (and we) could face as a result. We enforce the rules where we're able (after flushing two bags of weed, and threatening to call the cops if we found any more, he stopped bringing it home).

But it can't be all negative. Negative is what my difficult child thrives on. It feeds his ODD response, which in turn shuts down every part of his brain tied to logic, and he then feels rightiously justified in acting out however he sees fit. He was evaluated by a Ph.D psychologist who told us about ODD (he called it "reflexive rebellion"), and said that the best way to reach him is to avoid the things that trigger a response. Only then would we have any chance to reason with him, or even get him to listen to us in a receptive way (instead of through a filter of defiance and anger).

That's what we've done. Since then, he stopped getting stoned every day, stopped breaking curfew every night, and stopped completely giving up on school.

He now goes to school every day, has all A's and B's, and his graphics art teacher raves about his potential (even if she laments his diminished drive). He gets himself to school and does his work all on his own - no more yelling, threatening, or cajoling on our part, and no more skipping, sleeping in class, going to school stoned, or refusing to participate on his part.

His choice. His good choice, and he's seeing the benefits. Something for us to build on.

He also quit cigs - from a pack a day to nothing. Yes, he was scared into it by an asthma attack and by his docs, but he did quit. Not from all the threats, bribes, and demands we made over the previous year, but because he finally found his own reason to make the right choice - and is now seeing the benefits (money and breathing are good incentives :grin:)

Does he still get high? Yes, but not recently since he's had mono. But even when he is toking, he's down from being stoned all day every day (last year) to "occasional" use. Do we like it? No. Is it progress? Yes. And the fact that he's able to go weeks without using coupled with his own concern for his health may give us the hook we need to get him to quit on his own terms. Will it work? Don't know, but for now it's preferrable to going back to threats, demands, and holding his car hostage (we know what response that will bring).

I don't know if I answered your question, but that's the best I can do.

Thanks,

Mikey

 

[jbrain]

Hi Mike,
just want you to know that I get it about the parent/child relationship being dead--that is what happened in our family. My dtr would not recognize our authority over her and she also would not recognize anyone else's, including police, probation officer, teachers, etc. You are right, it doesn't do any good to come from an authoritarian position in this situation, just doesn't work. I think it is very positive that your son is actually responding to your different approach, my dtr was beyond responding to anything! Now that she is on her own though she actually seems to see me as a parent--will ask for advice and seems to even consider it! I do see where you are coming from and hope it will work out--glad you have the other options in your back pocket though.

--Jane

 

[Terryforvols]

Mikey-

Thanks for your answer! Didn't mean to be nosy, just wanted to know where the therapist was coming from.

 

[Sunlight]

I quote Karen:
What I am trying to get at is that we have all been there done that, at least I know I have. I went through the denial stage, the stage of believing he would grow out of it, the stage of having to detatch and then the stage of accepting my son was a drug addict and that there was nothing I could do for him. He had to do it himself.

Ditto from my end. hope your son makes it happen for himself and if he chooses not to, I hope you guys know and do what is best for the rest of the family. I recently had to make my 23 yr old son leave due to repeated alcoholism, disresepct of me and my home. his brother told me he cannot go thru this anymore and neither could I.

 

[Ephchap]

Mikey,

I don't think anyone meant anything derrogatory by their remarks, at least I didn't take it that way. Like me, others have been in this situation and we sometimes might be a bit vigorous in our wanting to help.

I know that I hit brick walls at every turn when I was struggling through trying to get my son help. When I stumbled here on this website, I read and wept and wept and read for hours. It was so wonderful to have people that truly understood. I always felt so all alone.

None of us are here to judge. We are here to support and I hope you didn't take any comments any differently. As our motto here on the board says, take what you need and leave the rest. It sounds like you have a good plan in place, and an alternate plan if necessary. I think I speak for all of us here in our little corner of cd.com when I say that I'm pulling for your son. We are a supportive bunch.

CA Mom, I have to admit to having a weepy moment reading your response. I still remember your first few posts, and I remember responding to you with something like, "just marijuana" ? The emphasis being on just. You have come so far in dealing with this situation with your son. It truly made me cry happy tears to read your response. Way to go, mom !

Deb

 

[SunnyFlorida]

Wow...off the board for a few days and wow...all kinds of stuff happening! What great dialogue! Mikey, got to hand it to you...you've got a plan and you're stickin' to it!. I hated that the parent/child relationship for our difficult child 2 ended too soon.

basically I'm ditto kfld's response. :grin:

 

[CAmom]

Deb, I was thinking of you specifically when I was writing that note because you always cut right to the chase in such a calm, no-nonsense, but still caring manner (others too, of course). You helped me so much to get a grip on my values and knock off the wish-ey-wash-ey stuff which I have no doubt gave our son mixed messages, certainly not helping him or us.

 

[hearthope]

Mikey ~ You have said nothing that offended me and I am sorry my post sounded so strong. If you reread CAmom's post, she put it all in wonderful words that I couldn't seem to grasp when I was posting.

The one's here that have lived through what you are experiencing now are just trying so hard to warn you. We have been on the same page you are on and someone told us "You better wise up or your going to lose it all!" and speaking for myself, I felt just like you. My son didn't have a "big" problem, he was just hanging around the wrong group of friends. I was determined to change his friends. Then I was determined he was going to play football. Then when none of that worked, I was determined for a LONG time that I had someway shortchanged my son with his upbringing. If I had only been a better mom, if I hadn't have made that move from the city,if only I didn't have to work so many hrs and I could be at home with him, etc.


I found myself in a very dark depressed state. I failed at all my attempts to save my son, I failed as a parent.

Then when I found this board and posted through my fears and heartaches, I began to heal. I learned that all in all, my son was making his OWN choices. I held my line in the sand and over the course of four years , he has come back and he respects me for the line I drew.

I would not wish what I have gone through on my worst enemy. I guess that is why my post sounded so strong.

It's like you are on one side of the railroad and I am on the other. I have been at this crossing before and I know when the train is coming. You can't quite see the train and I am jumping up and down screaming "watch out for the train or you will get hit!"

I wish only peace to you and your family. It seems like you have a plan and hopefully it will succeed! Every situation is different and I don't know your son. I am only sharing to try to keep others from the pain.