What is forgiveness?

[Hound dog]

I'm good with letting go. I let go of many things with this person, otherwise I would spend my life in misery hating him. But I also won't let my guard down with this particular person when I have no choice but to deal with him.

Witz, you don't have to let your guard down in order to let go. in my opinion to do so when forced to deal with the person would be leaving yourself vulnerable to more pain.

While letting go of the emotions surrounding my victimization was important to my healing, forgiveness for me would be saying the pain and cruelty I endured was somehow justified. I can't and won't do that. There is no justification for what was done to me.

 

[Steely]

Amen DaisyLover.......Amen.

 

[ML]

I don't have anything to add other than that which has been said. Forgiveness is a gift we give ourselves. It frees us from the bondage to whatever offense was committed.

I'm glad you brought this up. It makes you really think!

 

[tiredmommy]

Witz,
I was neglected & overlooked by my mother as a child. I resented (and even hated) her for the conditions under which I was raised. I hated her for never stepping in to change those circumstances, never parenting my brother or myself, and because she walked away from us. Her abandonment left a huge and aching hole in me.
She has defended being passed out and hung over on her one day of the week she saw her children. She was drunk at the one parent-teacher conference she attended. She got me high at eleven and was hitting on my male friends by the time I was 15. She even tried to get me to date her much older friends when I was a teen. There was absolutely not one shred of anything motherly about the woman.
Yet, she is my mother.
And the only one I've got.
She'll never truly change. I know this. I'm certain beyond the shadow of a doubt that she does not care about any more than she cares about a stranger on the street.
But she's still my mother.
I carried around a lot of anger, resentment and rage through my teens and early twenties stemming from this hatred I felt. I realized it was eating me alive, and I didn't want to be consumed by this anymore. Because it was wasted on her... but because she really just doesn't care. It was now a problem for me to solve, knowing full well that her becoming a better parent wouldn't ever happen. She would always be a horrible mother. But I could be a good enough daughter to accept this about her and move on with my life. I figure I'm a good daughter by living my life well, not in spite of her. But because she has messed up everything else good in her life (including my brother) and I'm worth saving.
If it takes forgiveness and acceptance to do that, then I guess I've forgiven and accepted her.

 

[witzend]

I feel comfortable with what Daisy and WeepingWillow have described. I let go and move on. I protect myself when faced with the same situation. What was done will never be ok with me, and I'll never put myself in that position to be hurt by the particular people I am talking about again.

I don't think that L's dad will take her and M to dinner. (Sorry, guess that's on another post) It's just the gall of him to think that he's in any sort of position to "facilitate a reconciliation" between L and M when he's too fricking arrogant and clueless to even know that his disregard for my humanity in the face of my children is what contributed to the terrible start in life that M had, and how he undermined my parenthood throughout M's life that was at the very least the seed of the this unhappiness.

Let go and move on? Great. Mess with my kids and act like the hero when you're the one that messed us all up in the first place? Someone better watch out. The only forgiveness I have in this is forgiving myself for being young and naive.

 

[ML]

I think it's ok if you can't forgive, also. We can ask our creator to forgive where we can't. Just try to be good to yourself. L&M are lucky they have you!

 

[Marguerite]

Witz, you said, " The only forgiveness I have in this is forgiving myself for being young and naive."

Maybe for you, in this situation, that is the most important forgiveness of all. Forgiving someone does not mean that what they did was alright. It never means that. It just means that for you, you are no longer letting it hold you to a painful past, although you may never forget or trust that person again. That's OK too.

Maybe for a lot of us, too much emphasis has been placed on making us forgive before we are ready, and in too broad a way. This has to be an individual thing, not forced on us out of a misguided sense of what a 'nice' person should do.

To forgive is to begin to heal. The other person? That's their problem. I'm beyond it now, I have a life to get on with and I will never let any demon from my past hold me back.

We should stop holding ourselves to be accountable to higher standards than we hold others. Just free ourselves, as best we can, and live.

Marg

 

[witzend]

Thanks, all. It's been a tough day, and your support has helped make it a bit easier to keep my head level.

TAWANDA!

 

[Kjs]

I am working so hard on the "letting go" part. It has been 4 years since I lost my job of 16 years. The job I loved. My new boss did things to me that were awful. Purposely did these things. You could not even imagine someone doing these things. It had gotten to the point that within 30 minutes of getting to work I would break out in hives. I had to carry an epi pen.

I cannot forgive this man for the things he did to me. They were wrong. They were not even legal. (but try to fight a huge nation wide company). Because of that job loss, we suffered through bankrupcy, almost lost our home, the stress put on our family was enormous. I had gotten horribly depressed. Had jobs I didn't like. Had to commute over 100 miles a day. Work shifts where I don't see my family. I am very fortunate to have obtained the position I have with this wonderful company now. But starting over, starting at the bottom, learning all the ropes all over again. Pay is much less starting over. I have struggled for 4 years with so much anger, resentment. I try to tell myself to let go. Move on. I cannot. I truly WANT this man to feel my pain. i truly want this man to go through what I had to go through. I truly want him to pay for what he has done to me and my family. I know that is wrong. I know it is holding me back in so many ways. I lost so much because of this man. I just cannot move beyond this. How do you forgive someone who has caused you so much pain?

 

[witzend]

KJS, I honestly don't think that you do forgive those people. I hope that you are able to move on from your anger. But I don't think you can forgive him. He's not worth the time effort it would take for you to get to that point. Work on moving on and not thinking about those things he did to you. If at some later point you want to forgive him, you can. Honestly I don't know how that would happen. But he's not worth your time and effort.

 

[timer lady]

witz,

I've watchd this thread with interest & have spent time thinking.

In my mind, there are actions, choices, deliberate actions that are too much. That just cannot be forgiven. I cannot forgive the tweedles sperm donor & incubator for all that has been allowed to happen to them.

And having said that, I've had to learn to "let go" of the very intense emotions that surround my kt & wm. I've had to let go to survive the day to day

There are days, hours, even a minute here or there where the inhumanity comes to mind & I cry.

Hope this helps.

 

[nvts]

Well, I guess simply put: forgiveness is a simple act that is basically very 2 dimensional. It benefits AT MINIMUM the "forgiver", at max. it benefits both the forgiver and the "forgivee".

While not clearly a selfish act, forgiveness allows us to cleanse our soul, body and mind of ill will, mean thoughts, hurt and anger that gnaws at the spirit of the wronged party. By expressing that forgiveness to the offending party (whether they are remorseful or not) not only allows that cleansing, but gives them something to think about whether they want to or not, whether they accept responsibility or not, or whether they will repeat the cruelty or not.

Either way, you have potentially exposed them to God in a way that they haven't tried.

I don't know if you believe in God, but ultimately pretty much most religions are based on that fact that a "higher being" wants us to treat one another as we would want to be treated. Even if you're not religious, it's a matter of societal bounds.
It doesn't "erase" what happens, it just lets you move forward. If they don't want/care/or need to be forgiven, YOU need to let go and the only way to do that is to sympathize for shallowness and move on via forgiveness.

In the end, to forgive is divine and to err is human. :angel:

And besides, forgiving someone that doesn't care, wickedly allows you to mess with their head, so you still get some sort of satisfaction!!!
:devil:


Beth

 

[Big Bad Kitty]

Again, forgiving somebody is not telling them that what they did was ok. It is not saying that you are over it. It is not letting them off the hook so that they can stop feeling guilty about it. It is not a gift that you give the offender. It is not something that the offender earns by apologizing or winning you over.

It is something that you do for yourself. It is releasing yourself from the bondage of hatred and resentment that you feel towards that person. It is turning it over to God, and letting Him decide what to do with that person.

Remember, it is forgiveness, not mercy. You can forgive anybody for anything. it is in your best interest to do so, or it festers. It helps your own heart, soul, and spirit heal.

 

[Steely]

But starting over, starting at the bottom, learning all the ropes all over again. Pay is much less starting over. I have struggled for 4 years with so much anger, resentment. I try to tell myself to let go. Move on. I cannot. I truly WANT this man to feel my pain. i truly want this man to go through what I had to go through. I truly want him to pay for what he has done to me and my family. I know that is wrong. I know it is holding me back in so many ways. I lost so much because of this man. I just cannot move beyond this.

Kjs........interestingly I had the exact same thing happen to me 6 years ago. It coincided with my difficult child jumping off the deep end, so I chose to stay home for the last 7 years......and yes.......while attending to difficult child I was also secretly harboring SO much resentment for this company. I had previously worked 10 years for this corp., and they had slammed me in every way possible. I think workplace trauma can be almost as horrible as relationship trauma - not quite - but almost. I mean we spend hours and hours there, giving our entire being to our careers, and then, after years of that, to have it dumped in our lap as useless, can be personally devastating.

I am now searching for a new career, and have had to really come to terms with my past experience with that company. Like you said, I have to start all over again, at the bottom, and work my way up. But the even scarier thing is that I have to believe in myself again........phew! I realized I had allowed that other company disaster to literally kill my sense of self, and my sense of confidence.

Which brings me full circle to the topic of forgiveness. No, I will not forgive them for what they did. If I saw the VP who was part of this on fire, I would not spit on her. However, I have tried to re-frame this episode in my mind. Change the paradigm so to speak. I now look back on the episode and know that I did everything I could have. I look at myself in the situation and feel peace that I really was an amazing employee, with tenure, and clout within the company, that was admired and looked up to. I have accepted that sometimes bad things happen to good people - and that is that. I did nothing to warrant this bad behavior on these other people's part.

And for me, this is part of what I suppose some people may call forgiveness, but I call acceptance, letting go, and loving myself. I hope you can somehow find this same peace within your situation.

 

[witzend]

I slept fitfully last night. (Big surprise.) I think that we are all hitting on parts of the same theme. Forgiveness is a very personal thing, I think. I think it is as different to each of us as what we believe about love or friendship or faith.

Then this morning in my xanax induced fog, I thought about the typical scene we all saw as children about forgiveness. Whether we saw it on TV or in a movie or in a book it was always someone very contrite saying "I'm so sorry, can you ever forgive me?" And the reply is always something along the lines of "Of course, I forgive you, don't worry about it!" Life isn't usually that tidy though.

I guess that with people who would continue to do us harm, the problem is that they never have worried about harming us. We want them to worry about it. They have no conscience and we want them to get one. I think in these things, we forgive ourselves knowing that we have grown and will recognize this type of predator the next time. Maybe if we aren't likely to see them again, we can forgive them too, because we can feel somewhat certain we won't ever be hurt by them again. It's those people whom you have to see over and over again whom you know will hurt you over and over again that maybe don't deserve our forgiveness.

I can give an extreme example of this in my life. Twenty six years ago I was kidnapped off the sidewalk by a stranger with a gun who raped and sodomized me before he let me go hours later. He was never found. It's so long ago. I hope he never did it again. If he continued, I hope he was caught. He was old and obviously a street person. Maybe he's dead. But I can forgive him. My chance of being hurt by him is over.

On the other hand, L's dad keeps interfering in my life on a very personal level that has nothing to do with L. He says he will continue to do so because he wants L to be happy, and if her path is divergent from mine, he chooses hers with no thought for me. He will not ever consult me, or give my life a thought on the off chance that he might provide a passing fancy for L, even knowing her fancy will pass, and that it might cause me grief until the day I die. I forgive me for getting involved with him. As a general rule, I don't give him a thought unless and until he comes into my life. Usually, I'm proud of myself for having survived him. Lord knows why I ever ask him to do the right thing in these situations because he never does. He thinks he's better than me in the most literal sense of the word.

I can't imagine that there would be any circumstance under which I would forgive him. That would involve more effort on my part than he is worth to me. If he dropped dead tomorrow, maybe I would forgive him. But so long as he breathes air and can hurt me again, there is no way on this earth I will ever forgive him. I'll happily admit that I am not that big of a person and move on. That's for God to decide.

 

[Big Bad Kitty]

See, to me it takes way less effort to forgive someone than to hold a grudge. Even to someone that I see all the time. Forgiving someone is the opposite of doing something. It is doing nothing. It is releasing everything. Not forgiving is holding on, scrunching up, getting defensive, and even losing sleep.

It is not for HIM. It is for YOU.

It is not to ease his guilt or conscience. It is to release your hate.

You don't even have to tell him that you forgive him. You can do it all by yourself. You just have to feel it in your heart. and then your heart will feel better than it has in years.

 

[witzend]

See, to me it takes way less effort to forgive someone than to hold a grudge. Even to someone that I see all the time. Forgiving someone is the opposite of doing something. It is doing nothing. It is releasing everything. Not forgiving is holding on, scrunching up, getting defensive, and even losing sleep.

I guess we have to agree to disagree. So long as I have to worry about what he will do because he takes glee in what he has done and promises to continue, I can't also forgive. I can forget - but only when it's not staring me in the face doing it all over again. Luckily these things only come up once a year or so.

I'll forgive him when he deserves it. Or when he's cold in the ground.

 

[Big Bad Kitty]

Witzend (((((hugs)))))


I pray for your mommy heart.

 

[TerryJ2]

Wow. Terrible things to try to forgive. Hugs to all.

 

[Marguerite]

Witz, it sounds to me that by my definition, you have already forgiven him - for stuff from the past. Because you've moved on, in your own way. Of course you're still afraid for what he might do - that's understandable and sensible. But that's another matter. The past is all anyone can ever forgive, you can't forgive what you don't yet know about.

Of course what he's done was not right. Never can be. And you're right, he does sound like he really doesn't care about anyone else. But you sound as if you accept this about him even as you reject any notion of ever having anything to do with him again.

But you don't sound to me as if you are obsessing about events from the past or letting your anger over them hold you back in any way. You sound as though you have let go and moved on, as far as your concern for what he might yet do will let you.

And really, what more can you do, that is appropriate?

Considering all you've had to deal with, in your own past as well as in this (now over) relationship, I think you're doing amazingly well. You might be feeling like it's a struggle, and right now perhaps it is, but you're doing everything right. Don't be so hard on yourself.

As you said, he is beneath your contempt, which tells me you are no longer giving him a second thought. If you hadn't in some way forgiven him (again, my definition) you couldn't do this.

You are a good person. It is OK to not trust him. This does not mean you are still bound by the past. It means you have learnt from the past and are using it in your current decisions.

Marg