Despairing mom, Copa, Tanya, Elsi, SWOT, Triedntrue, and others, I appreciate that you all, and everyone else here are trying to help me. That's all that I see, that's all that's important to me. I'm sorry that our differences of opinion have resulted in hurt feelings. I've re-read it all and I don't think that anyone originally intended to offend. It's ended up that way and for my part in that I sincerely apologize. Just as my experience with my mother has tainted my views of my son, we all bring our prior experiences to everything that we do. In this case we share similar experiences. That is, we have children who have caused us pain, as well as joy, over their lives. We have all had the term conduct disorder applied to our children. We have all been advocates for our children. That includes seeing many professionals for our children. Over those years we have all developed sensitivities to terminologies. I suggest that its impossible not to do so. But terminology, diagnosis, are words. Words have different implications and meanings to each of us. I think we've gotten caught up in words. I'd like to go back to our intentions and my emotions. That's where this all began and we can all agree. I'm glad that Elsi, as well as I, have gotten a better understanding of forgiveness. It is so important to our mental health. And to my original title can you forgive forever I think the answer we've come to is probably not. The behavior needs to end to start forgiving in a meaningful way. At least for most of us. That end may come from us separating from the person causing pain rather than the actual cease of the behavior. But without some kind of end the forgiving probably isn't heartfelt. And this is where I was lost. I thought the behavior had to end. That was the purpose in ending my relationship with my mother. But I see now, as Tanya has so well put, that separating is enough. It will take some years for me to get to that point of separation. I couldn't separate enough from my mother. But with my son I hope to do so. I think you all understand how grateful I am.