*Faint*

[meowbunny]

If you ever figure out the logic of why she would want to stand out in such an extraordinary fashion, let me know. I really hate the confusion of girls her age. They want to be different, but not. They don't want labels but are a walking label. It is so hard on the parents. No matter what you do or say, you lose.

I wish you luck with this mess. Maybe her therapist can help her figure out what she wants and who she is.

(((((HEATHER)))))

 

[KTMom91]

Miss KT did the emo thing for several years. Now she's becoming punk. That emo/goth business...she used to get mad at people looking at her, too, but in my tactful and sympathetic way, I told her that if she didn't want to be stared at, she should stop looking like such a mess, wear makeup other than black, and smile every so often. If she truly had the courage of her style convictions, she wouldn't care if everyone stared.

 

[flutterbee]

She spent a lot of time - before lexapro - drawing the same picture over and over again. Has a whole line of them on her wall from floor to ceiling. It's a picture of a broken heart (in various colors) and reads, "Broken Heart, Broken Dreams." In addition to the wall line-up, she has a notebook full of them, too.

She has stopped drawing that and is now drawing Gir from the Invader Zim cartoon series.

I think that's an improvement. The show is pretty stupid, but Gir is this goofy little creature that is pretty funny.

Janet - we talked about the intelligence component. She read that according to psychologists, kids that are Goth statistically go into higher paying, more sophisticated jobs. And my girl is a smart cookie.

 

[Marguerite]

My easy child 2/difficult child 2 is also very smart, although sometimes I wonder if her brains have leaked out somewhere along the way...

She also was a cutter, but some time ago, actually before she really got into Goth in a big way. She's not cut for five years or more now. For her, the cutting was a separate issue. difficult child 1 was also a cutter, and isn't into Goth at all, although he does wear a lot of black and studs on bracelets. But otherwise, he's a Star Wars nut. Although is it possible that Darth Vader is just an overgrown futuristic Goth?

I think for easy child 2/difficult child 2, the Goth thing began as a way to cover up her scars, with long sleeves of black lace. Now she no longer worries about covering up her scars, she will openly talk about cutting (as a stupid thing she once did) to warn others off it, she works on her designs and can tone down the Goth look when it's socially appropriate to do so. For example, she's chosen her wedding dress already and although there are some potentially Goth-but-acceptable designs, what she has chosen is lovely, olde-worlde but certainly not Goth.

I think, with anything like this, it all depends on WHY the child has made the switch to whatever-it-is, not exactly what it is. Given a choice, I'm happier with my daughter's Goth outfits than if she was into Bratz or similar over-sexualised over-commercialised merchandising. But then - I don't think there's any attempt by my daughter (any more) to use Goth (or anything else) as a smokescreen.

It comes down to the honesty of it, and how obsessed the child is, if it is developing to an unhealthy extent.

Marg

 

[Marguerite]

Heather, I finally got an email reply from easy child 2/difficult child 2, about anything she can suggest to help your daughter 'embrace' Goth with a bit more common sense as well as individuality.

Remember, my girl is now 22, so feel free to remove anything that may or may not be appropriate for your daughter. I've had a look at what she sent to me - I'll send it verbatim, as she sent it to me (although I might censor some of the Aussie slang).

If you have any questions, please ask. She's given a particularly good description of how to do makeup to look good but still be individual. Also if you need to, tell your daughter that this is coming from a girl who has worked as a professional performer and actress so she's learnt a lot about make-up and costume. She's also designed and made some of her own clothing when she couldn't get what she wanted in shops.

From easy child 2/difficult child 2, addressed to me (Marg):
"Website is vampfangs.com and I recommend she join the free stuff club if she has her own email (sort of sign up for e-junk mail, but worth it for the specials and stuff, not a lot of free stuff). Aside from that is just checking out whatever the Newtown/Town Hall/ Paddy's equivalents area where she is. Not to mention checking out the jewellery in two dollar stores and keeping an eye on the fashions in the "Fashion" stores. I developed enough of an eye to be able to look through a whole preppy store before the music made me want to murder everyone including my friends. My three most recent buys were from Supre (God save me!) and jewellery from that store "Forever New" which you know are certainly not the stores I would like. Lingerie with the right additions also can look awesome and more tasteful than some of the "Acceptable" outfits (I can look acceptable to my Grandma and BF2's English Grandma ~ rather upright). Bustiers with a black mesh top or a jacket over the top are fantastic, plus watch Charmed for the fashion, some fantastic dos and don'Tourette's Syndrome. If she has any more questions feel free to pick my brains again.

"Did you mention the trick of using a stiff, flat brush to create eyeliner out of any colour eyeshadow she wants? Match her eye colour if not black, with a shimmery eye shadow then use the same eyeshadow with a thicker stiff brush..." [she refers here to a good powder eyeshadow compact she and I each have, that has the same colour in three different shades] "...to go over the edge of that and to turn up the outside corners of the eyes (I go from the corner of my eye to near the end of my eyebrow), then use another, slightly paler eye shadow and move in towards the nose. For more eye accentuation, with the first brush and shadow do the turn-up sharper then do the softer.
V. IMPORTANT ~ A good trick is to do it as heavy as she wants it (usually too heavy to really look good ~ I know) and then brush some of it off with her fingers until the shading is subtle, but still there if you look. It is MUCH more effective than just painting your eyes and half your face around them black."

If I can find a photo of her online, in costume, I will post the link so you can show your daughter that you can still look Goth without looking OTT in the face paint department; and without having to look like a trollop. easy child 2/difficult child 2's 'look' tends to be very Victorian, with an eerie twist.

I know it seems bizarre to have me as supportive of my daughter's odd tastes, but I found it not only easier to "go with the flow" but also figured, she's going to do this anyway, if I stay 'on side' I can at least steer her to something more conservative when the occasion really demands it. I suspect that if I had really dug my heels in, then she would have been even more extreme and less malleable when it came to dressing a bit more unobtrusively for events like christenings and family weddings.

I'm sad sometimes - like today, I was rummaging through the wardrobe where I have some classic garments stored from generations past. One prize piece in there is a broderie anglaise dress I remember from my childhood. There were originally two of them, bought in Paris in the 1950s for my aunt's two daughters (now in their late 60s). These dresses were hand-made from white cotton and voile, with the embroidery done by hand. I remember they were bleached and starched, only kept for absolute best. After my aunt's girls had outgrown them they were handed down to my sisters, who treasured them. Then my turn - I wore this one, the larger one, for my sister's wedding when I was 14. My mother made a burgundy velvet sash to wear round my waist with it. Then I wore it to school (a girls only school) on a day where we had to wear a white dress for a school graduation. I had been anxious, knowing the dress was no longer fashionable; but I needn't have worried. This dress SCREAMS "I am special, I am rare."

It would look wonderful on easy child 2/difficult child 2. But when she was 14, there is no way she would even try it on. It wasn't black!
It would still fit her, it is still beautiful, but in the wardrobe it stays until I have a grandchild old enough to wear it, who will understand its history. It's ironic - I see dresses similar to this (but not as detailed) available in the stores now, for exorbitant prices.

Maybe if I lose a bit more weight... although I think I'm a bit too old for the lace and voile Peter Pan collar...

Marg

 

[flutterbee]

Thank you, Marg! And send my thanks to easy child 2/difficult child 2 as well. I will pass this information on to Wynter.

 

[tawnya]

Call me stupid, but what is emo?

 

[Hound dog]

Do you have any idea how hard it was to find her a bathing suit that 1) had NO pastel colors and 2) didn't show too much skin (at least she is still modest)???

Oh, Heather..........I most certainly do!!!

Like I've told you I was tolerant with Nichole's Emo/Goth stage. Even shopped with her at Hot topic. But I also had limits she wasn't allowed to cross.

Nothing trampy. No unapproved peircings or tattoos. And no vampire teeth!

Just say no. I promise she'll get over it.

Such a hard time to go thru. Nichole also wanted to fade into the woodwork, yet her very look made it impossible. (not as bad as most though) I personally think it tells of the very war going on inside of them. Their fear of rejection vs there need for look at me I exist.

The good thing is that the vast majority outgrow it. Those who's parents are wise enough not to turn into teen rebellion trend, I've noticed, to have their kids outgrow it a little faster.

Like I told Nichole, "Honey you don't really want your grandkids to see you sporting vampire teeth and a tongue piercing, now do you? They'd never let you live it down"

I just thank my lucky stars Nichole has passed thru that stage and is more into being a girlie girl than she was in her whole life. Her wardrobe is bursting with color and ruffles.

Hugs

 

[Marguerite]

Tawnya, I found a link:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Gothic%20Emo

Also here - http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080811190151AALXSAp

They're not necessarily associated with Goth. Also, Goth isn't necessarily emo. For example, easy child 2/difficult child 2 is much more Goth, while difficult child 1 would have been described as emo. The emo component for easy child 2/difficult child 2 - would have been when she was a cutter. I suspected she was a cutter but if I had tried to force it out into the open to make her deal with it, I was scared I would trigger something far worse - she is VERY strong in so many ways and sometimes that is NOT a good thing. So I kept a discreet watch on her arms (and on her favourite knife which lived in her bedroom).

People are sometimes very 'down' on Goth appearance because they associate it with depression, self-harm and darker things. However, from my observation the darkness and the mindset comes first. And you have to deal with it in its own way. The way they choose to dress, the things they like to connect to - if anything, it can be an outlet which helps them resolve a lot of the negativity and get it out of their system.

For example - I grew up in the 70s and my mother banned me from wearing jeans or anything remotely hippie in appearance. No way would I ever get to a rock festival (unless it was church-sponsored and well-supervised). Anything else - unthinkable. I was closely guarded. However, she couldn't post guard in my mind. I may have dressed ultraconservatively, but inside my head, I was a peacenik and hippie. And as soon as I got the chance, my dress code changed accordingly. All my conservative clothes were kept at home. I DID have one rather revealing hippie dress that made it home - my mother remodelled it for me 'as a favour". It looked awful, after that.

If you look at the description of the appearance of an emo - you get someone who basically is trying to make themselves look insignificant. Everything revolves around them and their feelings - classic teen angst taken to almost satirical lengths. Frankly, I find Goth more balanced, as long as you can evict any hidden emo within.

I allow the dress code, but get intervention where I feel it's:

a) needed; and

b) possible, without making things worse.

With difficult child 1, he became very depressed very suddenly, the emo side of him was prominent (he locked himself in a room with his knife for example). I rang his specialist who doubled his antidepressants and arranged for close watch. Fussing about him always wearing black wouldn't have fixed a thing, and could have led to an increase in his 'self-expression of his pain' in some other more destructive way.

I'd love to have normal kids. But I haven't. So I try to change what I feel I can, but I compromise to change on the things I'm most upset about, and I embrace the rest.

He carefully hasn't shown me what he's chosen to wear to his wedding. However, he chose it with his bride so I'm not too concerned. I do know she's ordered a white lace - corset. So it sounds like there's a slight Goth theme to this upcoming wedding...

One more thing - I also make a point to listen to their music and TRY to understand what it's about. To that end, the internet can be very useful in tracking down lyrics (also translations of lyrics, where they're in another language). For example, a certain high school massacre became unfortunately associated with the killers' favourite band, Rammstein. difficult child 1 heard their music and liked it, began playing it a lot. So he played it for me - I can't listen to much more than one track at a time. But when I researched it, I found that the lyrics are really very clever, often involving bilingual wit in some form. You can't blame the band, for what the fans chose to do, just as you can't blame Jodie Foster for anything one crazed fan did to get her attention.

I found the Yahoo link interesting, especially where it said emos tend to wear stripes but Goths don't; emos tend to be androgynous but [female] Goths emphasise femininity - I saw easy child 2/difficult child 2 at her apartment a couple of weeks ago, she had been sleeping a lot that day (her day off) and pulled on whatever she had to wear within reach - over the knee b/w striped socks, her "Susan Sto Helit" high button boots, black satin long skirt cut away to above the knee in front, with a ruffle around the hem, a black and red lace corset. An interesting, feminine mix of stripes (emo) and curvy, Victorian Goth. But if you time-warped her back to Victorian England, she wouldn't be acceptable anywhere.

Just something I threw on," she said.

"You almost missed," I told her.

Vampire fangs are definitely NOT emo! Not even if they're striped!

Marg

 

[Marguerite]

"Just say no. I promise she'll get over it. "

When it comes to vampire teeth or anything small, like jewellery - they are tiny, they fit inside a pocket or a wallet. If you ban them, if you ban ANYTHING, you risk it going underground.

The best way for a ban to stick, is for the ban to come from the individual personally. Disapproval doesn't work - with easy child 2/difficult child 2, it often only goads her to annoy you with it more. For example, my best friend REALLY dislikes easy child 2/difficult child 2's vampire teeth and has told her so emphatically. She has also told her own (much older) daughter, who also tried the same lines on easy child 2/difficult child 2 when they met at "Rocky Horror Show" last month - "Honestly, easy child 2/difficult child 2, I can't take you seriously while you're wearing those stupid vampire teeth." Trouble was, Rocky was exactly the right place to wear them, and until she mentioned them, nobody else had even noticed! (oh dear)

You see - for easy child 2/difficult child 2, the vampire teeth are NOT to impress other people, she wears them entirely for her own personal reasons. She leaves work (where she dresses much more like some Swiss Alpine dairy maid, in white lace, black skirt, large apron and cute little cap perched on her intricate auburn braids) and goes to the changeroom, emerging like something from "Vampyra". The teeth are in her purse and as she gets into her car, out come the teeth and into her mouth. She drives the car, wearing her teeth. She's even been pulled over by the police and random-breath-tested, still wearing the teeth. The cop didn't notice. She didn't show him.

Given a choice between the vampire teeth that are entire plastic dentures (the ones that make you salivate like a St Bernard when you wear them) and these tiny little things not much bigger than a thumbtack, I know which I prefer.

Of course I'd prefer none, but my girl is an adult (even if she doesn't dress like one).

I do wonder if she's going to reconsider getting into that fashion design course... her aim at the moment is to be a teacher. I think she's going to be a very interesting one...

Maybe I erred on the side of permissiveness with our kids, but I had already seen what happens when you say to a kid, "I forbid you to do this!"

What has happened with us - our kids (especially the girls) have made their own choices but because I didn't forbid (although I DID advise) they have felt free to come and talk to me about it. Any mistakes they have made, they have had to take full responsibility for, because THEY made the choices and not me.

I look back now, finally understanding why my parents made the apparently ridiculously strict rules in my life - and feeling very sad, for all the wasted opportunities, all because of their fears. I stayed safe, not because they were overprotective, but because I was lucky. I had a few close calls, mostly because they were so overprotective that I had no chance to learn how to keep myself safe.

I'm not always happy with the choices my girls have made. They know how I feel, but they also know I won't forbid. I'll probably do something worse - discuss it with them, the pros and cons.

What's the right thing? I don't know. All I know is what I have chosen to do. Whatever you choose - own it.

Marg