Family Reunion From Hell

[Lil]

He is likely to hold a grudge about it for years.

And there would have been no grudge at all if middle sis had picked him up like she said she would, if any of them had, heck, if she just hadn't called him. Now instead of feeling "this happened because of what I did" he feels HE has been done wrong. The wrong lesson learned.

He has been unfairly treated.

He can see what he did to cause others reactions against him. It is just that he does not want to take responsibility to change it. He wants his cake and to eat it to.

We should all get over it. And give him another chance.

I wonder if this is universal among our difficult kids? After everything he's done, he still thinks we should just be his parents and give and give. You'd think the fact that we kicked him out of our home, took his car, and now turned his phone off would be an eye opener.

He wants everyone to forget the past, every time. It's the reason he was angry and upset about getting kicked out. Like we've said, once it's over, it's over. You go on down the road and put it behind you.

I told him on the drive that I was more than a little disturbed that he was more upset about being kicked out than he was that he had frightened his grandparents. His response was that he was upset, but they had overreacted, that it never would have happened if they hadn't pushed him, etc., and that after everyone calmed down it was all better. He didn't know why they were still upset.

Possibly this is a defense against guilt. I think we need to consider this possibility.

That is an interesting thought.

I remember one time when he apologized for, once again, doing something he shouldn't. I don't even remember the specifics. But, I pulled him over to the bedroom door he's punched a dozen holes in and pointed to one and said, "See this? This is, 'I lied to you."' and pointed to another and said, "This one is 'I stole from you.' All of these is something you did that hurt us. Saying you're sorry is like putting some Spackle over them. You can patch it up and paint it and make it better, but you can never make the door be just like it was. It'll always be a broken door that you patched over."

His response was, "Don't you think I feel awful?"

No. I didn't think he felt awful.

I'd love to crawl inside his head. I would really like to know what he truly thinks and feels. Maybe he deflects to keep himself from feeling guilty? Maybe it's too much for him to handle? With all his self-esteem issues, for all his feelings that the world is against him, maybe he can't handle believing that his own actions have made it that way.

Up to a point he does not seem to be motivated to change by feeling guilt or shame. Then I can look at a another way and say this: It could be that he feels so much shame he cannot take it in to learn from it. I will think about that.

Maybe it's overwhelming?

Have you ever had a job so big, gotten behind on housework or office work, to the point where you can't even see where to begin? You just sit and stare at it, and can't do anything. Maybe the shame is so big these kids can't figure out where to start to make it better? Any time we mention him doing nothing to change things he starts in on, "I'm trying. I know what I owe you. I am trying to figure out how to come up with $2,000 I owe you!", even though we've told him again and again, to get himself straightened out, we don't even care about the money if he just starts doing the right thing.

 

[InsaneCdn]

Have you ever had a job so big, gotten behind on housework or office work, to the point where you can't even see where to begin? You just sit and stare at it, and can't do anything. Maybe the shame is so big these kids can't figure out where to start to make it better?

We have a winner!
For our kids... it IS overwhelming.

 

[Copabanana]

No. I didn't think he felt awful.

I'd love to crawl inside his head. I would really like to know what he truly thinks and feels.

In the past when I tried to explain things to my son, he would cry out something like, Don't you think I know that? Don't you think I already feel bad? Why do you have to always rub it it?

Have you ever had a job so big, gotten behind on housework or office work, to the point where you can't even see where to begin?

Yes. That is what I am going through now.

Maybe the shame is so big these kids can't figure out where to start to make it better?

That is the hypothesis we are considering. The only problem is this: What are they trying to do about it? The ball is in their court.

My son will not go to therapy. He will not take psychiatric medications. He is not open to religion. He will not go to college. He will not work. He will not go to AA or NA.

I will qualify that. He is now in a residential treatment program. For that I am grateful.

The thing is Lil, we are trying to find a way to understand that hurts us less and gives us hope. To believe our children have personalitys that are amoral is too much to bear. To believe they are disordered fundamentally in their stance towards the world hurts us too much to bear.

The psychiatrist I talk to wants me to accept that my son is likely intrinsically disordered. He believes that I am resisting this, still, but must to achieve some peace of mind. I don't know what I think. How can he know? I ask. He has never met him.

At the end of the day it is up to our sons to confront themselves and to resolve their issues. Or not. We can no longer do it. If they are rendered as if paralyzed by excessive guilt or not, we are left in the same hurting space. Perhaps with more hope.

Except this is the problem: Regardless of what our hypotheses are with respect to our sons, our thinking about them makes no difference. It changes not one thing for our sons. The only thinking on our part that has any chance of making a difference is accepting that the solution for them is out of our hands.

We are left in the same nasty place, as long as they do not help themselves in some way, even meeting us half way. Regardless of what we think about it.

 

[AppleCori]

He kinda had a reason to feel like it was over, though.

Grandparents told him that if it happens AGAIN, he would have to go.

He therefore assumed it was dealt with. Forgiven. Moved on.

It seems as if the decision was taken out of the grandparents hands and decided by others.

Even if grandparents changed their minds--which they have every right to do--it would have been best to explain the decision to him personally. Someone should have, if grandparents were afraid to do it. We all agree on this point.

But he did kinda get the rug pulled out from under him.

 

[Jabberwockey]

Even if grandparents changed their minds--which they have every right to do--it would have been best to explain the decision to him personally.

They told me on Saturday that it was going to happen on Friday. So they planned on talking to him about it more than likely but the sibs took that option away.

 

[Copabanana]

I don't doubt it is quite frightening to anyone who doesn't know him well enough to just get mad at him for being a jerk.

The thing is Lil, he does not seem to do this at work or in the real world (at least that I can recall.) He seems to save his antics for family, where he thinks he can get away with it or the consequences will be minimal.

There is a bright side to this: He has control. When he wants to. And by the choice you have made to cut him loose, he will be in the real world and will have to contain himself. Or not. And there will be consequences.

The grandparents were a diversion that led nowhere. He is back in the saddle. And he is on his way. Where? He will figure it out.

 

[Lil]

Well, I had two days of peace. Now he's calling...all "Oh woe is me"... don't know what about and don't want to know.

I don't actually have much choice but to "engage". If I don't answer my cell he'll call my work. There comes a point where I just dread hearing from him. This is it.

The thing is Lil, he does not seem to do this at work or in the real world (at least that I can recall.)

I don't actually think he's been at work long enough to know this is a fact.

 

[BusynMember]

Don't answer, even at work.

One of the things I've learned is that less is more. There is no reason to listen to something that has no answer and to anybody who isn't listening. "Oh, I'm sorry you feel that way. WEll, got to get back to work. Client here." HANG UP.

I think talking too much is a waste of time. They don't get it and they use it against us and twist it and pretty soon we don't even know our own names.

JMO, take it to heart or have Jabber carry it out to the trash He is a man and lived drenched in love. He can handle a minor rejection like that. He isn't owed a talk or an ear every time he wants one. Again JMO. The garage thing and all that

 

[Lil]

I wish I couldn't. I know it's me...but I can't totally ignore a call if I know it's coming in. But I can text back a response instead of answering.

No one should have to feel this way about a phone call from their child.

 

[BusynMember]

Well, you have three choices.

1/We want our kids to change in dramatic ways. If it is not healthy for you mentally to talk to your son when he calls you, you need to change yourself and not answer that often. Texting is the same thing only in words you can read over and over again. No difference.

2/You can start not listening/not giving him answers if he does call. Be very quiet. Let him rant. Put the phone down for a while if you are getting agitated. Every so often say, "I see." "Hmmmm." "I am sorry." But don't lecture, try to talk sense into him (how many times have you tried that only to turn it into a tirade even against YOU) and you don't have to really listen either if it's the same ole, same ole. If he texts don't read it all...it is nonsense...and type "Oh" or "I'm sorry" every so often. Nothing that will ramp him up again. Just benign responses, the fewer words the better. Less is more.

3/You can keep talking to him, trying to talk sense to him, etc. every time he calls or texts and get stressed out, ill and angry that it has no effect.

We all have these choices.

Hugs for your hurting heart.

 

[Lil]

It's going to have to be #2. Text being better than talk.

We all have our quirks and sometimes you know where they come from...for instance I have a fear of the dark. When I was about 5 my big brother stood outside my window at night, wearing a werewolf mask, until I noticed him (rotten little jerk). I also have a thing about the phone. I told my son's biodad I'd never take another collect call. He called, I hung up. He killed himself within a few hours of that call. It makes me really very crazy to not answer a phone when my son calls.

I know intellectually that what happened is not my fault and ignoring my son won't make something awful happen to him. But then I know intellectually that there are no monsters in the dark. It is how it is.

So if he calls back, I'll let it ring and then text him. But maybe he won't. Only time will tell.

 

[InsaneCdn]

Text is better than talk in this situation. At least it gives you time to craft your answer, to think about what you want to do or say. And it takes some of the emotion out of it.

 

[Echolette]

Lil,

I understand needing to pick up when your son calls. Do that as long as you need. Eventually I got so sick of the time and emotional sink of these conversations and texts that I finally said "son, I'm sorry, these calls make me really uncomfortable and I don't want to have these conversations anymore."

I was ready. It was necessary. And things changed after that for both of us. I hope you get there too, one way or another.

Echo

 

[pasajes4]

I dislike phone conversations period.

Lil, I do understand about your son calling your office. My current position has me working in multiple sites. He would call every school in the district to hunt me down to ask me questions about buying him x on my way home.
It was awful.

 

[Copabanana]

He has control. When he wants to.

he does not seem to do this at work or in the real world (at least that I can recall.) He seems to save his antics for family, where he thinks he can get away with it or the consequences will be minimal.

I don't actually think he's been at work long enough to know this is a fact.

Lil, did he do it at school?

The question is this: Does he do it in other circumstances outside the family?

If he does not do it in school, where it would cost his self-image.

If he does not do it in school because there would be no secondary gain, i.e., nobody would be likely to respond by giving him what he wants.

This would point to manipulation, that he does the behavior with family for control.

If he does it only in some situations, and not in others, this is a chosen behavior.

He keeps hurting people by his behavior, i.e. elderly people who only wanted to help him....

What would be your most responsible response as a mother, putting aside your feelings, now that he is an adult?

 

[Lil]

The question is this: Does he do it in other circumstances outside the family where the cost is to him, in self-image, and in front of others who will not reward him for doing so, i.e. there is no secondary gain?

Hmm. I don't know. But since we didn't give into his tantrums, he actually hasn't gotten what he wanted from his dad and I over all the years of his life, so I don't get why he keeps doing it!

I get the feeling that people think we gave in, that he got what he wanted, but that isn't true. And then there's the tantrums that happened when there's nothing really he wants, just because he's ticked off.

I just don't know.

What would be your most responsible response as a mother, putting aside your feelings, now that he is an adult?

You mean other than beating the daylights out of him? No idea at this point.

At this point, I don't know much about anything. I think my brain has gone bye-bye.

 

[Copabanana]

I get the feeling that people think we gave in, that he got what he wanted, but that isn't true.

Lil, there are all kinds of rewards from a tantrum, apart from getting something, or what the kid is saying they want. It is not about whether or not you gave in.

then there's the tantrums that happened when there's nothing really he wants, just because he's ticked off.

That I can think of rewards could be: power, attention, to punish, to confuse and throw a parent off guard.

What is gained does not necessarily have to do with any specific privilege or thing, if you think of this in terms of a win. And whether we think they got something is not the point. It is from their point of view.

Nobody is saying you gave in. Nobody is saying you were not a good parent. If we did we would be accusing ourselves.

 

[Lil]

Nobody is saying you gave in.

Yeah, I'm sorry I even said that. I mean, I know what you are saying, but I just for the life of me can't figure out anything to be gained by acting like an immature idiot other than making people really not like being around you...punishing, confusing, that doesn't really apply to the kind of fits I have experience with.

I worked retail as a teen. I remember kids throwing themselves on the floor and screaming and parents giving them the candy or whatever they were doing that over and thinking, "What a stupid parent, I'd never give in like that!" and I never did.

 

[pasajes4]

It's a power thing. They blow and any response from us gives them the "win". it does not have to be about material things. it can be a tool to get us off their back and to shut us up.

 

[Jabberwockey]

it can be a tool to get us off their back and to shut us up.

Even that doesn't make any sense. Yes, the one he had with the grand's was about this, but he's has SOOOO many with us that just made no sense. He would be in his room, we would be watching tv, and HE would come out pissed off about this friend or that and ing to us about it.

The only time I've ever seen any indication of control was the night we were getting stuff for the apartment back in January. He had been trying to get a ride for a friend to, as he put it, come spend the night. Another friend had promised the ride then backed out and while he was on the phone with our son telling him this, our son was going ballistic. After he hung up the phone, he was just fine. I do believe that, to a point, he has control over the tantrums. But once they hit a certain point, critical mass has been reached and the reaction is out of his hands.