Feeling gulity

Discussion in 'Parent Emeritus' started by overcome mom, Jul 31, 2018.

  1. ForeverSpring

    ForeverSpring Well-Known Member

    We have no dangerous kids,but we did get a securiity system for our new house and we put motion sensor lights all over the house too. Anyone who would walk by would light up our house, yard, everything. We are in a rather dark cul de sac so we took this extra precaution.

    Our area has almost no murders but lots of druggies who often break into houses to steal so we did extra protection. Asking cops we know, we were told how to deter these drug users.

    Along with our six foot fence in back, we feel safe. We have a system where you need a password to get in or the police are instantly notified. We dont have to call. They will be notified by those from our security systems call center....I think thats how it works.

    If your son is a danger to you, I agree it is better to be safe and not let him in or give him the opportunity to break in and steal or confront you. You both dont need that, him either. In a confrontational relationship, distance is your friend.

    Your home is your sanctuary.
     
  2. Wish

    Wish Active Member

    Agree with Swot. Protect yourselves and your home by any means necessary. At least a security system will give you some peace of mind while you and your husband are out of town. You might want to have a camera or two installed as well. With the camera's they have these days which aren't too terribly expensive, you can actually watch your home live whenever you want, with your phone or by your laptop or tablet. That is horrible for as old as he is and a married man at that, that he would even think about phyiscially hurting his parents. I can't even pathom a 26 year old man, no matter how many problems he has, doing that.
     
  3. ForeverSpring

    ForeverSpring Well-Known Member

    The cameras that Wish mentioned are soooo worth it! You can see your whole house. It was very cheap to download. Today we had one dog at the groomer and we were able to check on our two dogs at home on our phone. It was funny to see them. One is a rescue with medical problems so it was reassuring to see him. Then we talked to them and their little heads popped up and it was very cute.

    If anyone here is in danger from anyone please invest in yourself and find a security system that you can afford.

    Nobody should be physically afraid of his/her adult child or ever be robbed by your own adult child whom you love and would die for. But some parents live this nightmare and need protection. Its as real a threat, if not emotionally worse, than protecting yourself from generic drug addicts in your neighborhood. It is a protection you take to protect yourself because you are important and special and deserve to be safe. Thats you!

    It is also a way to keep your son safe. He wont be in trouble for breaking into your house or hurting someone if he cant get inside. The adult kids who are on this board are often 25 or 30 or 35 with no more self control than a raging toddler. That doesnt excuse them. They ARE adults. They can get help. But we can at least stop them from scaring us and stealing from us until/unless they do decide to grow up and get help.

    Light and love!
     
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  4. overcome mom

    overcome mom Member

    He hasn't said that he is going to hurt us or made any threats but I have seen him over the years be very volatile. He did steal from us when he was 17-18 (he's now 25) He just has such a sense of entitlement and we all know how desperate drug addicts can get. My husband says I am over reacting but it is just a gut feeling I get. Hope to God I am wrong. I was going to write him in jail and mention that we got a new security system with camera etc. Thank you all so much for listening this has all been going on for so long (11 years) that I know I have brunt out my friends talking about it, they are supportive but just don't understand. In the beginning it was hard to hear them say negative things about him as he is my son and I love him. I am sure what they would say was true but it hard to hear. There is also the social stigma of the whole thing and feeling like you as a parent did something wrong. I live in a rather small town and word about things go around. My son has a terrible reputation around the neighborhood some of it deserved but much of it not. I had a woman that moved in a while ago accuse him of killing her cat. He wasn't even around and has a soft spot of animals. She tried to convince me that he has gotten arrested for hurting an animal which wasn't true but she said she saw it on line. I asked her to show me which she didn't and also had a friend run a check and it did not turn up. It has all been so embarrassing and hurtful as my husband and I had such a good reputation before. My true friends know but it is still hard. I just don't talk about it most friends and family anymore.
     
  5. ForeverSpring

    ForeverSpring Well-Known Member

    People have no right to judge you. That gets me angry. I lived in a very small town so I know how word travels and my difficult kids were both gone from our home and doing well once we moved to Small Town. My other two kids never were talked about because they were REALLY good kids, but at my daughters sports games, Town Gossip used to often sit next to me and tell me all the dirt on everyones family, even her close friends which I was not. I would try to sit in crowded spots where there was no room for her and sometimes she would sit next to somebody else. I didnt want to hear it. I should have told her I did not want to hear it, but was afraid if I got her angry she may start making up stuff about my kids so I just tried to avoid her.

    I often however stuck up for kids that she tried to bash. Telling me about the cheating allegedly going on in Jim and Ann's marriage was not of interest to me, but kids....it was different. Worse. I couldnt tolerate child bashing.

    I feel badly for the gossip you dealt with. I would have stuck up for your son. Usually when she started on kids I would say "I dont really know what happened and I would rather not talk about kids. I happen to like Tommy." She never stopped trying to tell me but she did stop in the moment when i gave her that little speech.

    My kids loved that town but I am happier now that we moved to a bigger, more anonymous place.
     
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    Last edited: Aug 3, 2018
  6. overcome mom

    overcome mom Member

    This is an update and I guess I need some support that I am doing the right thing. Background -son in jail for domestic abuse wife was also in jail for same thing but bonded out. We did not bond him out. She is very manipulative and accused him, among other old boyfriends of the same thing. I know that some woman continue to find abusive men but she came to me after the first time and told me that he did not do anything and she had lied to the police and court. This time she said things got out of hand and he just didn't seem himself and that she did not press charges but the sheriff's did. Son claims he didn't do anything except for go back to the house when he shouldn't have.
    He is suppose to go to court in about 11 days.(First day of our vacation) He said he may plea out just so he can get out. If he says he didn't do it then they will set a pre trial then a trial and then if he is found guilty he will have to wait until sentencing. The pretrial and trial would mean that he would most likely be in there for about 2 more months. He said he can't sit in the little concrete room with nothing to do anymore. They do not let them outside nor exercise as they are suppose to. He did finally get the book I sent but that was only because of guard, that was nice, and hunted it down for him.
    Here is the dilemma - He has been convicted of other crimes before but nothing violent. They let him plea no contest to the one before and a non violent charge . He would most likely not be able to get a job in his chosen field with a violent crime conviction. He said that is why he wanted me to bond him out so he could fight it. I do understand why he would want to plea just to get out. Many poor people do this. He only thinks of the next day and can't delay gratification for anything so I am sure this is no different.
    My concern is that if I bail him out, which I have to put down 10% and then promise to pay the rest if he doesn't show up,that he won't show up. He has missed court dates before and will not be living in the same state and has no car to get there. We could afford if it was something that had to be done. They will probably give him time served and then a 1 year of probation which he will have to pay ???? if he pleas. Should I bond him out? My husband is waffling again so makes it even harder. I just don't see the end in this behavior. It seems if it was not this it will be something else. He hasn't been stable for the last 10 years. It's so hard to watch him destroy his life bit by bit.
     
  7. Triedntrue

    Triedntrue Active Member

    I know the temptation is hard and i understand where you are coming from. But what happens next time you will have paid all that money for nothing. My experience is i bailed mine out for same thing but she later withdrew charges. In the meantime because she was "the love of his life' he went off the rails and got more charges they combined cases because same as you on previous cops charged him anyway. So my bail which was substantial is carried over for all the delays and postponements etc. It has been hanging over me for a couple years now. That is very stressful. I vowed then no more and i haven't. My son is older so it is up to you maybe this will be his last I don't know. Prayers are with you.
     
  8. ForeverSpring

    ForeverSpring Well-Known Member

    Your son should not work in a field where good behavior is important. Its not fair to those he has to serve. So far he hasnt worked anywhere, has he?

    Save your money and let him finally experience consequences. He may never change if you dont allow him to be punished. Next time could be worse. At least now he has meals and a bed and is off the streets.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2018
  9. DoneDad

    DoneDad Active Member

    As far as bailing him out, you’ve answered your own question
    You know if you bail him out, it’s just going to be more of the same. And it is hard to let go of the hopes we had for them as we see them wallow in bad choices, crimes, substance abuse, dysfunctional relationships, jail. That’s why you want to give him another chance to preserve the future you want for him. But does he want it?

    You say he wants immediate gratification, can’t fight the charges if it means sitting in a cell. Well, guess what, everything comes at a cost.

    And who says he’d be found not guilty? Or even show up to court.

    You have to do what you can live with. In my case, I sure wish I had the money we wasted on bail and lawyers back. But that’s in hindsight. At the time, it seemed like the right thing to do.

    Good luck with whatever you decide.
     
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  10. overcome mom

    overcome mom Member

    Thanks for the input. I know it is not a good idea but hate to see him have a violent charge on his record. I was toying with going to get his things (a 3 hour drive one way) but have decided to let the chips fall where they may. I am sure that some of his things will be damaged and missing. Just hope he doesn't go wild again. I have no idea how he is going to get to his birth Mom's place as it is about 3 hours away.
    The worse time for me is the mornings when I first wake up. I start to think about him and what is going to happen to him. I start to problem solve in my head and run all sort of different scenarios . It is so hard to turn it off. I know that I can figure certain things out but unless I do it then it won't get done and I SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT. I thought before this if he got locked up again I might feel better as I know where he is and he wouldn't be asking for money. Well I was wrong on both accounts. I am really trying to prepare myself for when he gets out and saying No and sticking with it. Sometimes I know I have just given him money so I don't have to listen to him for a while. This is not good for him nor I. I have a really hard time not answering my phone. If I don't answer it I constantly wonder why he called and what he is going to do to up the ante.
    He is very good at getting work and horrible at keeping the job. He has worked a lot of different places maybe 10+ but has never kept a job more than 7 weeks. I am not sure why he gets fired but have my suspicions, a lot is related to his time management skills and always thinking he knows what is right. I really don't know a job where he would not be serving someone. Where is suppose to work to support himself?
    As far as changing if he gets punished I wish that was the case. He has been in prison 2 times and locked up more times than I can count, starting when he was 15. I use to say that he always has to learn the hard way but now I say he doesn't learn at all. It all just makes me so sad. I want so much to detach and enjoy my life.
     
  11. ForeverSpring

    ForeverSpring Well-Known Member

    I meant a service job like security or law enforcement when we count on workers to have high ethics. Firepeople. Mail People who cant go into our mail. Teachers. Medical professionals. These jobs require high ethics and morals.

    If he only has worked seven weeks at a time he either arguesvthen walks out, steals, argues or doesnt show up. Where can he work? Probably a good beginning job is restaurant or clean up. Yes. Yes you wanted more for him but he needs to want more for himself and starting slow will be possibly more easy on him than skilled work where employees understand job rules and dont get breach rules. You cant at work. There are strict rules.

    I.worked at a restaurant at my prevretirement job. Many wayward young adults also did. There were no drug tests and the potential for moving up was excellent. That was a good place to start for many. Your son has no job resume. He isnt going to start out with a high paying, skilled job. And if he gets out of jail and does not see consequences in my opinion he will just go back to his old ways. My daughter works in Corrections at a local jail. She says it is the same people over and over again. And your son (i pray not) may be a person who just refuses to follow societal rules. Getting him out of jail early wont help him either way. He cant violate otjer people.

    I know you dont want him to never improve.

    In the end, all is up to you and we support you.

    In spite of your son, please do enjoy yourself. You deserve it. You cant help him by being miserable.

    Love and light!
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2018
  12. overcome mom

    overcome mom Member

    I just got off the phone with my son from jail. I made a suggestion of what he might say to the prosecutor when he goes to court. He wants to argue with me that it won't go that way to which I respond whatever. He tells me I could call the prosecutor and see if they might make a deal because he won't be able to talk with him from court- he won't get an attorney until the next hearing. I told him I was not going to call the attorney. He then tells me, getting angry that he can't call them because he is in jail. I said yes but this is not my responsibility to which he replies that he didn't do what they are saying, and he shouldn't be there. I told him he made choices that ended up getting him there to which he starts yelling at me, saying” what am I saying that I believe he did it?” I should have never said anything to him about the case and let it go where it may. I am sure that I brought a good part of this on myself by even saying anything. I too must break some bad habits number one is me bailing him out and getting involved when he screws up. He claims he didn't screw up, so I guess it's he is implying that is why I should help him. Also, he says I do not have anyone else to call. Also, not my problem but didn't say that to him because he would really go off. He said that he needed to end the call, implying he is so upset that he couldn't talk to me anymore. Really, I made this dependent monster and now I want to stop, and he is going off the deep end. Guess I shouldn't be surprised when you finally have to take all the burden yourself it is really scary. In the heat of the conversation I just don't know how to say to him that I am not going to do things for him without getting into an argument with him and not having him go off the rails. I hate the confrontation. His attitude is he has no one but me and I am his mother, so I should do for him. Wrong assumption.

    I also just spoke with his birth mother who he thought he could go live with and she is now vacillating. I know that all this is going to blow up, he is not going to have a place to live. Ask to live with us then we say no and s--t will hit the fan. The anticipation of this all really stresses me out. And of course, this is when we will be on vacation.
     
  13. Elsi

    Elsi Active Member

    Overcome, I’m new here too and struggling with many of the same questions about how much to help and when to say no, especially when mental illness is involved. I don’t have answers, but wanted you to know that you are not alone. Hugs. Stay strong.
     
  14. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    Your son sounds like my own who is 29 almost 30. With us, there has been no incarceration but all of the other stuff is there: impulsivity, not learning from mistakes, dependency, making others responsible, drama, etc.

    I have come to the point that I cannot have contact with him, for the reasons you cite. He gets frantic when he has gotten himself cornered, when there is no money, when he has nowhere to live. And he feels justified in making these our problems. Either hitting us up for loans that are never repaid, or squatting on our property, or not wanting to pay rent, or taking our food.

    His own poor choices got him in each of these fixes, and he feels justified in making it our problem, when his choices result in the problems that anybody except him could have foretold.

    From my own experience, I do not believe your son will listen to rational arguments about how he got into this mess, or how he can get out. He will not see his piece. More than this, he will not be able to tolerate the anxiety and stress that he would feel in the process of developing a pragmatic and reasonable plan, and executing it. What he wants is that YOU MAKE THE PROBLEM GO AWAY, by making it your own.

    He is desperate and he wants out of the predicament. Just like an animal gnaws his own leg to get out of the trap. His job in relation to you is to make you feel the pain that comes from his gnawing at his leg. And to feel responsible for making it stop.

    There is no way that interaction with them when they are in their traps will yield anything but pain and their transferring their own desperation to us. They not only want to make us responsible, they want to put their feelings into us. Because to make us feel desperate, is to manipulate us to act in their behalf. It is also to momentarily to alleviate their distress, by locating it in us.

    You are in a tough spot. As long as you do not comply with 100 percent of what he wants, when he wants it, you will be his target.

    Which is to say based upon my own experience, as long as you speak to him, he will target you, if you do not fulfill his requests.

    Your only options as I see them are to limit contact with him, either to a specific time interval each week, when you can be better defended and prepared. Or to tell him you will correspond by mail.

    There is learning here for us:

    They are responsible for their lives,for their errors, and their compounding their errors, ad infinitum.

    Learning to sit tight, even as we watch the train wreck, is our learning.

    Our boundaries are our responsibility. The expectation they should take responsibility while reasonable in every other circumstance, is unrealistic here. They will not, as long as we are taking responsibility for them. In my own family, I saw that my very presence, be it by phone, or in person, precluded my son's taking responsibility for anything. There was no boundary that he respected. He violated every single one. I had to remove myself completely. It is a nightmare for me. For me, it ceased to be for his welfare, that I set a limit. That was the difference, this time. I set the boundary for me. To survive.

    I am wondering if you are describing such a situation. That the consequences to you, are so noxious, of engaging in conversation with your son, as he suffers, is unbearable. As I type this I am wondering if there are techniques you can use to stay present, while detached. Like meditation. Or some parents just listen and comment, like, I see. Or deflect any question with responses like "I know you can handle that" or "what is your plan?"

    This is all very, very hard. I have been at this site over three years, and I am only now beginning to get this, and beginning to put this into practice. Your circumstances will help you. Because you have not much choice.

    I know a mother whose son was arrested for 3 strikes. This means there is a mandatory 25 to life sentence. The crimes this man committed were really relatively minor. There was nothing violent about him. He was a drug addict. This is when the mother finally drew the line. Over and over again before she had helped him. She did not do so, this time. The son is in prison for life.

    The thing is this. Even when there are the means to pay the bond, or even forfeit the entire sum, should he abscond, we do not know where this will end. We hope and pray this will be the worse, and that they will wake up, and go in the other direction.

    But maybe it is the reverse. Maybe they need this lesson, so as to stop now. Maybe the wrong lesson is to help them out of the trap. Maybe they need to feel the pain of their own choices. Maybe gnawing of their leg is not the worst thing. Maybe it is their life at stake. We do not know.

    There is not one thing easy about this. But I wrote on another thread today something I need to remember: courage is the other side of love.
     
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    Last edited: Aug 15, 2018
  15. Elsi

    Elsi Active Member

    I love that. I needed to hear that today.
     
  16. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    Overcome mom, hi.

    I was reading your post today on another thread and came back here to recall your story. Because I was feeling a strong similarity to you. Which it seems I already told you.

    Today it seems to be that there are several of us posting right now--as if we are describing the same adult son...and as if we are the same suffering mother. Defending our homes and trying to find the heart to defend our fragile and vulnerable selves.

    We so easily find compassion for our sons but not for ourselves. We suffer, yes. But acknowledge and remediate this--after such a toll has been taken.

    After so many years. So many tears . So much suffering.

    We need to STOP. Walk this back. Make as much distance as it takes to lick our wounds and recoup. This is ENOUGH.

    We are not prey. To be mothers must not require that we allow ourselves to be consumed.

    I hear your suffering. And it is ENOUGH. No more.
     
  17. ForeverSpring

    ForeverSpring Well-Known Member

    Note: our adults who bring us here dont feel sorry for us. They know dang well how they hurt us and plain dont care. Its all about them and they never take blame.

    Thpse who bring us here are odd ducks with fantasy thinking. Most had privledged childhoods and every chance to do well yet they whine about little petty things WE did (cough) when they were ten that makes us their protectors for the rest of our lives. We owe them.

    Nonsense.

    How many of us lived perfect childhoods? Who does????

    They can overcome whatever they dream was a trauma.

    WE DID!
     
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    Last edited: Aug 18, 2018
  18. toughlovin

    toughlovin Well-Known Member

    Overcome. He should not be talking directly to the prosecutor and neither should you! He will have a court appointed atty if he cant afford one (sounds like he cant) and they will make the plea deal. He should be talking to his atty not the prosecutor. Anything he says to the prosecutor could be used against him.
     
  19. overcome mom

    overcome mom Member

    Thanks so much for your input. Copabanana what you say is all so true. I keep going over and over where he is going to stay. My husband said that "I want to go on record saying that he can stay here a couple of weeks" I asked what good that will do and what he came up with is that it would be 2 weeks he is not on the streets. Part of this is my fault as I haven't really told him all the reasons why I am pretty sure that he is using meth. He really doesn't have the contact with him I do. It has been that way from the beginning because my husband would shut down and say there is nothing we can do. He was right sometimes but not when he was underage and constantly running away. I am the one who contacted the police and dealt with the authorities when he was picked up out of state. I am the one who found the residential treatment programs,etc. Also my husband is fine until he's not, if my son is not doing what he is told and starts to argue with his father , he gets in his face , it turns to a bad situation quickly and it could take the police 15- 20 minutes before they get to the house.

    I guess I just keep throwing money at my son to keep my sanity, I know it is not good for him. "Learning to sit tight, even as we watch the train wreck, is our learning". Boy is this hard. I'm worried for my son and myself still can't be sure that he won't do something to our house-us. He hasn't done anything for about 8 years but it is hard to forget what he did before. I have never cut him off completely. I did say I would keep his phone active but nothing else. Wondering now if I should give him a little each week just to keep him from going off on us and make the transition to nothing a little slower. Even as I am typing this it sound as if I am trying to placate him. Maybe I should just pull the bandage off and see if the wound heals. It's scary

    His birthmother said he could stay there after he gets out but is back peddling now. He can't call her because the jail didn't give the phone cards out because someone screwed up. I told him I would call her and he could call me and I would tell him what she said. She told me she would let him know yesterday and then didn't and today only answered one text with a question. My son has called me numerous times finally answered and told him I knew nothing. He keeps asking me what he is going to do if he can't stay with her? I tell him I don't know and he gets all pissy with me. If I make any suggestions he has some reason why it is not going to work. Everyone has deserted him. I wonder why that is .. I would love to tell him but he wouldn't listen and then get even angrier at me. I am going to stop answering my phone if he gets out on Tuesday. I told him I would give him gas money so she could pick him up but that's it.

    The stupid security system I bought is not working right. I have messed with it for 2 days. I really would like it working before we leave. I am sooo tried of this.
     
  20. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    Two words: sober living. Or it it three? Sober living home. If they are indigent where my son was, it was free. They volunteered at the rescue mission.

    I would not let him come home. Period. If you do, where will it end? Like with us, his squatting and police twice a week?

    My son only got worse. To my son there was no gratitude. And our help only enabled him more. Any support from us he used to drug more.

    How will that make it safer for you?
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2018