For those watching the Casey A. trial.....

[Nomad]

I wish I had read more of this thread from the beginning and now it is so large....can't keep up with it. But I have read a few posts here and they are so interesting! What Klmno and others have said sounds right to me....she is the type of difficult child who gets upset (to say the least) when others (particularly family) refuse to buy into her lies and (God forbid) try to set up some boundaries. The nacrssisism, entitlement and worse is monumental and shocking.
There is some kind of horrid/gruesome lesson here for families....those boundaries are important. No guarantee that some will learn as they should...but it could help.
I watched some of the news coverage of this case when it FIRST happened (two years ago or so???) and now again in the last several days. In fact, I am in Orlando currently, so you can just imagine the hoopla going on all around me.
My opinion has NOT changed in two years. (Guilty)
She is a difficult child of monumental proportions....certainly the idea of personality disorders comes into my mind.
And even though her parent's behaviors (I only know a little) seem REALLY off and inappropriate to me, I feel a little sorry for them at times.
I saw the prosecuting attorney's closing arguments on tv over the weekend and thought he did a good job. I thought what he said about 1st degree murder either being pre-meditated OR it can be aggravated felony child abuse leading to death was excellent. He said that they were BOTH first degree murder in the eyes of the law and that if you believed either situation it was still the same: First Degree Murder.
I thought this might make it an open and shut case. Hmmm.
If you look into Casey Anthony's eyes....and see her demeaner/affect/facial experessions....combined with the OVERWHELMING evidence, there is no doubt in my mind that her thinking is "off" and that this should be a guilty verdict.
I do not think people will have an easy time convicting a mother of murder. It is gut wrenching. But, it is what it is.
Time will tell.
This is a very tragic/horrible/depressing case. Painfully sad.

 

[Marcie Mac]

I heard yesterday that they may be able to bring in the psychiatric's if she is found guilty for the death penalty- I didn't get the entire content of the remark as I was on Casey information overload. But seeing that three people have already examined her and found her to be competent I don't know exactly why this would be ok or necessary to do.

Am not too bothered by the circus - I think the majority of people love a good mystery and people have a curosity and are bothered by things that don't make sense, and nothing about this case makes sense. She in essense created this circus by her lying

Marcie

 

[timer lady]

What family with a difficult child doesn't become a bit (a lot?) dysfunctional? You all know the constant chaos, the constant walking on egg shells so a difficult child won't go off the deep end.

I hated that the family was so buried into innuendo; the men in that family falsely accused of sexual abuse (how difficult child, huh?).

I'm making no excuses for Casey. I'm devastated for that family.

 

[donna723]

I guess we all look at it differently but what a few have said here is exactly why I DON'T buy in to the accident theory, or at least the swimming pool accident theory! Trying to figure out her thought processes would make anyone dizzy and even if it had been an accident, she probably would have tried to cover it up at first and hide it from her parents. But if it really was an accident, it seems like even Casey would have been talking her head off back then rather than be arrested for murdering her daughter! And she has been sitting in jail for three years and is now on trial for first degree murder which could bring the death penalty. Surely if it HAD been an accident and if she could have provided any believable details that showed that it WAS an accident, she would have brought that up back then and would not have waited in jail for three years for it to come out during her murder trial! No way would she have sat in jail for three long years if it had really been an accident!

I could come a lot closer to believing that she died from an accidental overdose of the chloroform, but then there is the duct tape over her mouth and NOSE! No way was that an accident! You don't completely cut off someone's airway if you're not intending to kill them!

 

[Nomad]

TL...so true. I think all of us here can relate to the idea that when there is a difficult child in the family it strongly influences the rest of each member of the family. It is impossible for it NOT to influence each other.
I think it takes great effort and outside positive/helpful influences to turn that situation around.
Many in the world of psychology feel that parents are often to blame when it comes to the personality disorders, but that I don't believe is a hard 100% fact.
Certainly, there are cases where these things just happen ...people are born with disturbing personalities.... and then there are cases where it is sort of a weird combination of a tendency toward a certain personality and some inconsistent parenting. Then, there are some that are almost created.
Not sure the parenting style was brought out in this case and not sure if it would have been really appropriate. Not sure if personality disorders would make someone incompetent to stand tria, but I strongly suspect that it would NOT be the case.
She seemed fully aware of what she was doing....
Over the weekend, the audio tape of her speaking with- her mother was played and it was bothersome. Her mom was neutral, respectful (given the gross circumstances) and setting boundaries. And the girl was aggressive, disrespectful and unremorseful.
I can't help but have some sympathy for that grandmother.

 

[HaoZi]

Making a murder look like an accident makes sense. Making an accident look like murder would be stupid.

 

[Star*]

I would wonder if she is SO narcissistic that she was examined and that her brain being what it is determined on it's own that she was more brilliant than a stay at one flew over the cookoos nest and figured her lies could beat an entire prosecution team, then DENIED a guilty by reason of insanity plea or something like what D3 suggested. Also my thoughts are that her being sociopathic her general attitude would never allow or agree that she is anything less than normal. In her mind there is NOTHING wrong with her. She did what she did, it's done, lets move on. Like I said I don't see any "real" emotion from her at this point and I really believe she is being coached on how to behave in the courtroom. To us she seems (and the media has used this word to death) stoic. Except for a few times when her anger has been obvious? Then if you watch carefully the woman sitting there will say something and she will immediately either get her mess together OR start the tissue issue, and show emotion. It's been my tought that the tissue has been tainted with something to make her cry. (say what you will but it's possible). So that she is able to have tears. If you notice too- her "tears" don't come with the usual red nose, snot running, flared nostrils - she just has tears.


Nancy - okay back to the judgement thing. And yes, you and I go way back. I guess I didn't explain myself so well (what's new) lol. What I meant was in reference to Ms. Anthony and basically people in general that we don't really know or meet. NOT necessarily people that make a train wreck out of our lives. For us to not judge THOSE people? Well, we are human, and wired to think the way we do - you smite me I'm gonna (whatever) you. The fight I think in the human condition that is to me very normal is to want to get back at people, or carry a grudge or to not like them or not forgive them. Or to judge them. In court? Separate from our lives - completely. What we must do in court is a privledge and a duty. I'm not a bleeding heart. If I were on that jury I would weigh all the evidence before me and make my decision based on evidence NOT bias. Do I like Casey? Doesn't matter. Do I think she's guilty? Doesn't matter. What would matter to me is how well each attorney did their job brining evidence to me and laying it out cold. Hard, hard job. Capital murder without a smoking gun? WOW - not an easy job. Overwhelming circumstantial evidence with a woman that is basically saying - Yeah my daughter died in my care - but you can't prove it and I'm closed mouthed? Weirder yet. The burden of proof lies with the state sadly and she is smart enough to know that. Did she know it then? I have no clue. My point is - MY LIFE - will go on. MY hatred for her does not exist. I do not now nor will I ever hate HER - My life is too short. BUT what I was tyring to convey was every where I go I hear people say "I hate that so and so." and my thoughts are "Why?"....The child is gone, she's in heaven. It wasn't YOUR Grandchild, you feel for the family, but to carry around SUCH an enormous 'thing' for people you do not know, never will know - to me is illogical. Can you hate what happened? Sure - but to waste time hating her? No. I won't WASTE my time. I had an ex husband that ruined my life, ruined my sons life - he took things from us that I WILL NEVER EVER get back. More than I'll ever say. And I hated him - and wanted him to die for it. I carried THAT feeling around for years. Like a ball and chain. I judged him for years.

KLMNO said a beautiful thing about how this has all transpired. Her words were eloquent and exact. She said that if we forget and walk away with a shrug we aren't normal. She's very right. Forgetting -----is something we should all learn to NEVER do in situations where we've been wronged so that we learn to NEVER repeat our mistakes, our history, our red flags. But carrying around hate, grudges, and passions for other people that we do not know that ruins OUR lives and doesn't let US get on with enjoying OUR families and the loves and passions in OUR days? RUINS - ONLY US. Will I ever forget what my x did to me and my son? Never, ever. Have I forgiven him. Yes. Why? Because it was ruining ME. Does it make me a super person, or a better than anyone else? Of course not. It just makes me at peace with myself over horrific things that I couldn't change when they happened but I could change the fact that I had the POWER now to forgive and move on and be aware of future evil -

How would someone ever be aware of someone like Casey Anthony? Well there's a multi million dollar question for all worried parents of difficult child's with Grandchildren - And I guess I'd have to say - what have we learned by watching THIS trial? If you've learned nothing - what was the sense of spending time - because it CERTAINLY wasn't an ENJOYABLE thing. What I learned was that if MY Mommy sense (like Cindys) said Something is a miss? GO CHECK IT OUT - don't wait. CALL YOUR KIDS ON THE MATT - so to speak. Don't wait six weeks. If your spidey sense says - Something is not right? GO SEE IT - IN PERSON. Especially if your kid has a history of being a liar. OR detach, and take your chances....and then decide 100% - IF this were to happen to OUR family? WOULD I stand by my difficult child OR WOULD I BE SENDING HIM?HER to the GALLOWS without a thought or care. Because between you and me? I don't know if I could do that. I've buried two sons. I'm not sure I could just say - You did a horrible thing - good bye to you too. I'm not sure any of us would know unless it would happen. Maybe some would now - but I'm just not so sure. AGAIN - because the hate isn't something I'd want to carry around. Detachment yes - hate no.

I hope I've made more understandable what I was trying to say. Not cause any problems - Basically - in this case? I think Casey is guilty, I think she deserves whatever the jury votes for her. I do not think she SHOULD get off because her web of lies, and I think this trial went on WAY longer than it should have. To me this was pretty black and white. If you lived here in SC, and had a DSS lawywer for a girlfriend? You'd understand that this sort of thing is so common here it's beyond sad. I don't get details ever - but currently there are so many cases of women who have killed their children waiting to go to trial it's just a wonderment to me why THIS particular case is such a hot topic other than Nancy Grace felt it was news worthy because a woman about 10 miles from our house pulled a Susan Smith about 3 months ago with her 3 kids - and would have done a 4th little girl of hers and it never even got on National News - and then 3 weeks later - another Mother did the same thing 3 counties over and it never even made the evening news with her three children. Just the local paper. SIX children dead....and nothing sensational about it? Yet the entire world wants this woman on a spit? See what I mean? How can everyone in the world hate her - and just a handfull hate these Mothers? Makes no sense other than someone felt like making this so sensational....(I think anyway) I guess I could be wrong....but I think about the six children here and more than you can know about that were taken and still dying - and they don't get on nancy grace.....or Fox News...and FWIW? While I'm on my soapbox.....

The other day I'm in Walmart - and I'm listening to three women go on and On about what a MONSTER this Casey woman is. (okay she is fine) And as I'm walking out behind them? They are all walking RIGHT PAST - the 1-800 THE LOST board that DF and I always stop and look at EVERY TIME we are in WM. EVERY.TIME. IRONIC???? See? This is my moot point - They want to have something to talk about - but NOTHING to help with. They want to demonize a woman that they'll never meet, never convict, never talk to, never have dealings with - but yet - there on the wall were OVER THIRTY FACES OF CHILDREN that would have taken them LESS THAN one minute to scan -------and POSSIBLE RECOGNIZE ----and DO SOMETHING GOOD if they saw one of those kids ----FOR A PARENT HURTING - but nope - BTICHING all the way to the parkinglot about what THEY Would do to HER if they blah blah blah. And yeah ----whatever....But if you are going to take the time ? TO BE so PETTY - I guess you would NOT think to take the time to be a bit helpful or think outside the box about someone elses pain. Or maybe (those women) are just waiting for the next kid on that board to show up on a trial so they have something else to hate.

I dunno - but if hate's your fuel? You're not getting very good gas mileage. (off soap box) sorry I took so long - and it wasnt' directed at you Nancy - just in general thought about where this trial has taken the people of the world. I bet Whitey Bulger is happy as a Mob Boss can be.

 

[Nancy]

If there is a penalty phase they will bring in a lot of things they could not have in the trial. I don;t think it will get that far because I don't think that's what she will be found guilty of.

Listening to how disrespectful she was to her family on the phone was enlightening. It didn't sound to me like a daughter who was afraid to tell her family about abuse going on.

Nancy

 

[TerryJ2]

if hate's your fuel? You're not getting very good gas mileage

This should be a plaque.

 

[klmno]

LOL! I was just getting ready to give that statement a "thumbs up"!!

 

[DammitJanet]

Haozi....very sound thinking.

Nomad, that is something I have been thinking about quite a bit with this case now that I have seen Cindy testify over and over and over again. In the beginning I thought there was something off about her but then I started to feel sorry for her, now with the trial, I have gone back to my original thinking.

As many of you know, my mental health professionals are of the opinion that my mother's treatment of me from infancy on brought out my borderline PD. It would not surprise me at all that the relationship between Cindy and Casey when she was a very young child, may have led to personality disorders or other mental health behaviors. I think Cindy may have some issues herself. She is a very controlling woman.

DDD and Malika, we are just gonna have to disagree on this one...lol. I think I can understand why it effects you so badly DDD. It just hits too close to home with the way your easy child/difficult child has been treated with the system in FL.

 

[klmno]

Every time I try to give Casey the benefit of the doubt that maybe less than 1st degree murder happened, maybe it happened "this way" or "that way", I remember a piece of evidence that disproves that. I think that is what is meant by "the state proved it beyond a reasonable doubt", at least for me. But really, understanding the juror's instructions (to the best of my ability, at least) and understanding the definitions of felony murder and child abuse and learning that in Fl, it doesn't matter if Casey really didn't plan it out 2 mos earlier, it can still be felony murder in the first degree, put together with the evidence just sums it up for me. I could have come to a conclusion for lesser charges but the lack of any credible defense and the belief that Casey still hasn't told anyone the truth or shows any remorse, doesn't leave me even entertaining the thought or having any pity for her. (hmm...that doesn't mean I hate her, Starbie. )

DDD, I find your theories plausible but I don't think it's what Casey did because that would have been her defense if it was, in my humble opinion. I think her attnys know she's guilty, too. I don't recall hearing them actually say "Casey is innocent" one time, although maybe they did in their opening argument which I didn't see. I think they could have presented a more beleivable defense IF Casey hadn't said so much to them that it would have made it unethical for them to go so far as to present a defense that they knew was a blatant lie. (I don't know exactly where "unethical" comes into play for defense attnys and their requirements with the Bar.) That's why the theories you present might be believable and plausible, but there had to be some reason the defense attnys didn't present a more believable defense- just like when they gave her mental health evaluations (not the ones for competency but before that) and they decided it was in Casey's best interest NOT to present those or have that psychiatric testify in court. Things like that say a lot to me.

PS I do find it disturbing that the family home and the court have become tourist attractions. I can see maybe putting flowers or something in the area where Caylee died or a warrior mom of their own difficult child wanting to attend court one day, but I think it's obvious this has turned into more of a spectacle.

 

[Nomad]

Janet....I hear ya. I'm thinking if I had watched all of this testimony (from the grandmother in particular) I would have very similar feelings.
Yep...."off" for sure.

 

[JJJ]

Casey is the epitome of a difficult child. She is our worst fear as a parent of a difficult child. The anger, the lieing, the manipulation, the horrid crime, the emtional stress she's caused her parents under the pretense that if they did more it could have prevented this, the efforts made to hold out hope beyond hope that she was telling the truth and our worst fears maybe were just paranoia only to be thrown under the bus and accused of things that could cost us all our loved ones...it's all just too much for the normal person to be able to shrug their shoulders and walk away from and forget about.

The similiarities between Casey and Kanga are too many to count. I pray every day that Kanga never has a baby, ever.

 

[Nancy]

Star,

I understand about the hate. I guess I haven't paid much attention to people hating her. You are correct, life is way to short to hate someone you never met and have no connection to. And as I explained before I certainly understand forgiveness so that one can go on with their life and be free of hate and anger. Hatred and anger just keeps us prisoners. Have I learned anything, gosh yes. I learned that there are more families out there like mine, that have a difficult child that has been a difficult child for years and her family knows it and they try and try to fix things, to get her to accept responsibility, to cover up perhaps out of embarassment, and yes to even try to control her. I learned that there but for the grace of god walk I. I learned that some of the things we have done with our difficult child did not help, some did. I learned that no matter what our difficult child does that we may hate or find abhorant, our natural instinct to protect and help causes us to do things we may regret or may not be the right thing to do. I learned that difficult child's cause much dysfunction in the family and people who do not have that in their lives don't understand.

Most of all I felt validated, that all I have lived through and all we have done is not unique to me, that there are so many other families out there going through their own person crisis and none of us knows how we would act in their shoes.

I agree that this same scenario goes on every day and it is not televised. The public interest is not there. Quite honestly I believe the six months prior to them finding the remains is what caused this one to be different. So many people looking for her and the family's reaction fueled interest. The protestors at their home, praying, preaching, screaming, holding signs, in my mind helped fuel the fire here, it brought out a lot of evil. Why were they there? It caused the news media to be more intersted in this than if they had left the family alone. Also, in all honesty, Casey's own lies made this case sensational. She deserves the credit for that. Let's be honest, this is a case like none other. Most times when children are killed by their parents, they don't lie about their whereabouts and hide the body in a swamp. They commit the act and it is found out quickly and they go to jail and have a trial and that's it. She needs to take the responsibility for helping turn this into a circus. She created the circus and the news media just picked up on it.

Anyway thanks for clarifying. I have been very interested in this case because this is what husband does. I feel the anxiety both sides are feeling now waiting for the verdict. I have seen that with my own eyes. I know at the end of the day one side will be satisfied and one side will be devastated and one family will never ever be the same. I guess for me, watching this case would never be a waste because it causes me to think and to feel. If it helped one family realize they are not alone or help them not close their eyes when they see something that doesn't seem right, it is worth it.

One more thought about not wanting to judge. The one jurist who said she didn't like to judge and there was someone higher than her that would judge, was told by Judge Perry that being a jurist means she will be asked to judge and if he told her she had to judge would she be able to do it. She answered yes and was seated. That certainly put it into perspective.

Nancy

 

[Nancy]

The similiarities between Casey and Kanga are too many to count. I pray every day that Kanga never has a baby, ever.

I so agree!

Nancy

 

[klmno]

Can we agree to start a new thread on this soon? I'd hate for this to be the most popular thread EVER in the history of this forum.....

 

[Nancy]

Sure go ahead klmno. We will move over there.

Nancy

 

[klmno]

OK- I'll call it the CATA group in honor of you. LOL!!

 

[DDD]

I don't know this to be a fact but I think so. I "think" Defense attorneys as officers of the court do not want their clients to admit guilt to them. I'm not sure if it puts them into the position of having to lie in order to offer a defense ?? or ?? I am confident that no attorney would make up the story about the drowning, the alledged sexual abuse, the involvement of the Dad. No way.

So...Baez couldn't have presented "the truth" (or my conjecture, lol) because his client lies to everyone which I'm sure includes Jose.

Now I want to veer off the thread path for a minute. As we all know there are far to many "nuts" out in the world...and this is getting worldwide coverage. Obviously it is emotional and the 24/7 coverage is geared to lure emotional responses. Why in the name of Heaven would any sane juror want to be identified more than they already have been? They are talking about a press conference after the verdict immediately following the verdict. WTH? Wouldn't you guys pass on that opportity and hide away until you dismissed by the Judge? I would so eager to get outta there and head home that I probably would be the first in the police transport back to St. Pete. DDD