Have you read this.."Girl dies from Bi-polar medications"

[busywend]

And this exact debate conversation should take place in the jury room of this case - I hope it does. There is a lot to consider.

I would like to say that I did request a copy of my difficult children file when I switched primary care doctor for difficult child. I was shocked to find that this doctor that I trusted for so many years had written a letter to difficult children very first psychiatrist basically slamming me. He also had written an entry that I refused to give my child a breathing treatment for her cough.

The slamming of me to the psychiatrist - nothing I could do as it was his opinion of his view on me as a parent (of course I had called him a million times telling him that my child was out of control (again) and I could not handle her on my own, crying, etc) and I could see how the inexperienced doctor would gather that.
However, the breathing treatment was entirely false. I did give it to her on more than one occasion. It did not provide relief to her - so what was the point of continuing to give it to her? This was what I reported to the doctor, but just because I disagreed with a recommendation that did not work - he writes that I was refusing to treat my own child?!?! They never did understand why my difficult child had a horrible, horrible cough that would come and go.

So, I would request files on your children so you know what they say. Especially with the tendency of us to get involved in CPS dealings due to our difficult children antics - it would be important to be able to explain a doctor entry that is false.

 

[lordhelpme]

a similar incident happened here in michigan last mth. it was on the front pg of the local paper and i had several people give me the article to
'show me" how BiPolar (BP) can be mis-diagnosis or how 'bad' the drugs can be.
seeing that we are not a judge or jury here to decide the parents fate i still say that we as parents of difficult child's are often 'judged' by others as to our decisions. everyone in the sd and my family and friends has 2nd guessed by difficult child's diagnosis of bipolar and the use of medications. heck i even have a current thread asking about the fact that our 1st psychiatrist is being too cautious.

i think it is safe to say that when it comes to mental health there is still such a stigma that people are undereducated, often extremely ignorant as to what and how life with-a difficult child is about. communication is a key so lacking in the lifes of difficult children, be it sd to parent, parent to psychiatrist, psychiatrist to parent and or sd.

 

[totoro]

This does bring up the topic of medications and files etc... I have a psychiatrist who said just up the medications as you see fit... Up to 5mg... but with little direction etc... I could see how this could be misconstrued if something bad were to happen. I felt uneasy about this and call our pediatrician anytime I increase the dose and discuss it with her and then I call for a medication consult with- psychiatrist. I have yet to talk with psychiatrist, but I left messages with the info. I just want to make sure their is documentation of what and why we are doing what we are doing. I also want the doctors opinion.
But our scrip does not reflect what our dose is... our records do. Because they don't know what dose difficult child will end up at the bottle just says one tablet a day... she is up to one and a half and soon will be 2.
The prn medications are also scary... we have diazepam as needed... we have only used it once. But some of us that have prn medications or as needed medications have to use great judgement!!! And someone has to trust us to give us the scrip.

And yes almost all of us are giving our kids medications off label... people can come down on us for that as well...

My files from our old pediatrician who thought we didn't need a psychiatrist painted me as a hysterical mom who was in denial!!!
As if we don't have enough to worry about???

 

[Marguerite]

I'm a bit hazy on who it was, but a post I read yesterday said something about one of our CD children found to be overdosed on lithium - the doctor was increasing the lithium and weaning off something else and the kid had a major meltdown, was taken to hospital and blood tested, with lithium at potentially lethal levels. And this was one of us - a parent who posts here regularly, is informed and loving, trying to do the right thing by her child and in no way would any of us judge her or consider her to be an unfit mother.
But the overdose still happened. It happened because the doctor involved thought he was doing the right thing. The mother had faith in the doctor and was following instructions.

None of the following posts on that thread were critical of the mother for failing to realise her child was accumulating a lethal dose of lithium. How could we? It could so easily have been us.

Doctors have a lot of power to put things in our files that cause difficulties and misunderstandings down the line. Whenever I have realised that there is something in my file with which I disagree, I write that doctor a certified letter stating my case, and keep a copy. When I see a new doctor who may have been given access to my file with the negative comments, I ask directly about it and also ask if they have been shown my certified letter. If they have not, I give them a copy. I admit, I've only had to do this twice, and only once have I needed to show a copy of my letter, because the doctor didn't include my response in his file. The other time, it was the new doctor who told me about the negative comment and questioned me so he could make up his own mind - I valued that. The negative comment had come from a locum, not the main practitioner. The locum actually had a problem with the diagnosis, but was blaming me for the diagnosis instead of arguing with the doctor who had made the diagnosis.

I strongly recommend you all develop the ability to read doctor's shorthand, upside down.

Marg

 

[dreamer]

"Dreamer -

I have not been on this board for very long, and I certainly do not want to make waves - however, your post really offended me. I passiontely and unequiovably feel that my role in this world should always be an advocate for the child.......not the adult. The children in this world are the ones who have the potential to be victimized, abused, and taken advantage of. It is my assumption, and society's assumption, that adults can and should safely not only take care of themselves, but also those of the children they are responsible for. I do not care what is true or not true in the story of the little girl dying - the parents are still responsible. They are the ones who were given the responsibility of caring for their daughter, they are the ones that were given responsibility for administering the medications, ensuring she was healthy, giving her attention, therapy, and love. "Anyone that dies from a Clonidine OD, dies a long horrible death" - and the parents of a 4 year old toddler are responsible for noticing that their baby was dying a long horrible death!!!"

Seems many people think I deliberately set out to offend and atack some of you. I am sorry you feel that way.
I am also sorry you feel I was being less than compassionate.

If you sequoia would like to discuss advocacy (or victims) with me in private, please feel free to email me.

If my posts to this thread had even just one person double check and research on behalf of their child, I am happy.
Maybe no changes at all needed tobe made for anyone here......or maybe they did. I sure do not know. I am not in your house watching any of you, I cannot confirm that anything you say here is 100% valid, true, non biased, any more than I know if Rebecca Rileys parents are telling true.

I suppose some of you missed that I DID type if the parents are responsible I hope they fry.
It is easy for us to be armchair quarterbacks or back seat drivers and hindsight is always clearer than foresight.

Rather than take the simple way, the same way the media seems to want to go, I would much prefer this case leads to something positive, and not simple blame the parents lock them up. Provide support for people, listen to the parents complaints, provide education to parents, docs, others who work with these families.

I read here people say this little girl died a miserable death. OK her uncle said she could not breathe. The mom defends saying she thought the little girl had a cold. Please then, tell me you absolutely 100% would take every one of your children straight to ER immediately for any complaint of any kind of difficulty breathing? SJS is a rash that can turn fatal. Please tell me, since many medications can cause SJS, that every time any child of yours is on any medication, you take them straight to ER at first sign of any rash?
A little classmate of my sons last school year stumbled on playground and bumped her head, school nurse dismissed the little girl back to class, an hour later the little girl was in ICU in a trauma hospital helicoptered there. DO you take your child for a CT scan after every bump on head?

How many bedtime ploys can a difficult child come up with to avoid going to bed? Hmmmmmmmm I always had major difficulty with the "I'M thirsty mom!" why? becuz when my difficult child was on Lithium, I feared dehydration and in a child dehydration can come relatively quick and it will not always show super obvious symptoms. ALas, that meant I always caved in for "I'm thirsty mom" Do you?

I am wondering, sequoia? If you feel so strongly "Again, there are too many children abused and dying every day for me to have an enormous amount of sympathy for adults who are victimized. I have been judged, excluded, and ostracized because of my son - but my axe to grind is for my son who has been judged, excluded and ostracized. My axe to grind is because 1 in 3 little girls are sexually abused - that children die every day " arent the posts here about kids abusing their parents hard for you to read?

I am sorry so many have misunderstood my words in this thread.

 

[dreamer]

Marg- yes, that is one thread I referred back to when I was posting to this thread. ------------"I'm a bit hazy on who it was, but a post I read yesterday said something about one of our CD children found to be overdosed on lithium - the doctor was increasing the lithium and weaning off something else and the kid had a major meltdown, was taken to hospital and blood tested, with lithium at potentially lethal levels. And this was one of us - a parent who posts here regularly, is informed and loving, trying to do the right thing by her child and in no way would any of us judge her or consider her to be an unfit mother.
But the overdose still happened. It happened because the doctor involved thought he was doing the right thing. The mother had faith in the doctor and was following instructions."

 

[Nancy]

Dreamer at times your message gets lost by the way you say it. Perhaps you can get your point across without questioning our motives and compassion. I could point out several things said that made me uneasy but I don't think that would help. We all intrepret what we read by our own experiences and values.

Nancy

 

[Hound dog]

This is such a tragedy, on many levels. :sad:

I wonder how you can accurately diagnosis bipolar in a 2 yr old? It would be tough in a 4 yr old depending on symptoms and the child's ability to communicate ect.

I know the diagnosis of ADD/ADHD is a popular one. And I've known kids that I've wondered if they truely had it or were just active kids. But I've never run across psychiatrists who were anxious to diagnosis bipolar (family hx or not) in young children unless symptoms were outstanding. Heck most don't believe you can diagnosis it in children still.

Still, the diagnosis itself isn't the issue. Neither is medicating a child who needs it. The issue is if the parents increased the child's medications of their own accord, resulting in her daath. Such a thing can be done with other medications too, not just those prescribed for mental illness.

 

[DammitJanet]

True Daisy...she could have been killed with tylenol.

This is a sad case. I dont know what happened because I wasnt there and I dont know all the facts so I will refrain from commenting. I am very sorry a child died. It should never happen.

 

[needabreak]

:crying:i just want to add a quick comment.it is very sad that this happened.but it is the parrents responsibility to take your child to dochter if ther sick.to care for them.and i just did not see that here.not just wuth the parents.but everyonefrom the teachers to the niebors to the pharisist.some one should of known something was not right and called some one .everyone has alittle bit of blame is this.thats my feeling.lets just pray that the little girl is in a better place right now and happy. :angel:

 

[dreamer]

all due respect, but I just read a post you just posted.
"difficult child is doing so good.they had switched him to 30 mill of focallin 3 times aday.10 mills at a time.and ys he is still hyper at times but what 5 year old isnt.but the great thing is he has not said a cuss word in almost two weeks.that makes me so happy.he is thinking befour he says something and doing better in school.therepy for his behavior is going well.the theripist is suppose to be going to his school to observe.we still have are off moments but i am just happy he is watching his mouth and what he says to other people.right now he is sick in bed and trying to get to sleep i just wanted to let everyone know how things are going and hope everyone is doing well.i have been busy latley.well got to go he is up.the poor baby. " and well, truth is this thread is holding on to me, haunting me.......so, I am going to ask......are you attributing the lack of cussing to the medications? Is the lack of cussing an acceptable balance for the risk of that medication? What kind of sick is your difficult child at the moment? are you 100% absolutely positive it is not related to the medication? Did you take him to the doctor to make sure?

OK........now that I have said that......(and I am sure many here will probably jump on me for saying it) I want to point something out. Rebecca Rileys mom said the little girl had a COLD. Symptoms of congestive heart failure do not always look obvious as being a heart problem. They can look like a cold. ANd why would a non doctor connect a cold or cold type symptoms to a medication?

No, I do not truly really expect you to grab your child and race off to ER..........BUT, you see.....(not just you personally, but anyone who is reading) people can post and tell their version of something and it can sound perfectly reasonable. we read what the media and whatever reported but- we did not yet hear how the mom described the events. SO you can say well if the mom would have posted here you would have guided her.but------since children get colds, she may have not even thought about the symptoms of congestive heart failure, or she might have said- my 4 yr old has a cold.......
You say they changed the medication dose amount- did they do that in person, write a new RX and give you a new RX bottle with the new dose amount on it? or did they change it by phone or without writing a new RX, but just simply TELLING you to change it? are you absolutely positive the dose change was accurately written into your childs medical record and also changed at thepharmacists files and records?

 

[needabreak]

ok i dont want to cause waves cause i vaule what every one has to say here.first off he has acold,a regular cold.and yes i did take him to the doctor, today cause i noticed a lump in his throat,to find out it was from a ear infection.yes i do call the doctor everytime he is sick.everyone in the office knows who i am i just had them do blood work on him to make sure eveything was ok.like with his liver and kidneys.the doctor said it was not nessary but i told her i wanted it and i got it.when it comes to my SON i will do what ever possible to help him.
second.yes i do think the medications are helping because he is able to think befour he says something.to be able to have a conversation with him without him getting mad is wonderful.i have my son in everything i can think of to help him.
and everyone is entitle to there own opion to what happened but in the end some one should of did something.if i seen some one i know or a child like that you better believe i would make a phone call.i mean you can make a call and not have to give info and it is private so someone should of done something.

 

[dreamer]

needabreak, I was using you as an example, and yes kudos to you for going to doctor for a cold.not everyone can get in to the doctor that quickly, not everyone has insurance or funds to pay for an appointment for a simple cold. (some peds will not even set an appointment for an exam for a "simple cold") ANd yes, everyone surely is entitled to their opinion, just like I also am. ANd I am glad the medications ARE helping, I would love to hear more of the positives of his medications besides just that he is not cussing anymore. partly becuz just not cussing does not sound like that is a good enough reason to medicate anyone.

Mostly I am holding you up as an example of how this scenario COULD take place.......how non dangerous it can sound on this side, to those of us here reading your post........

I apologize for upsetting you, but your posts were the perfect situation for trying to show others.

So, you see, I could have been concerned enough to call about you before I asked you those specific questions.......and now I am left to simply trust you are telling me the truth and not just telling me what I wanted to hear.

 

[dreamer]

needabreak? HUGS!