Hi I am new and need help, my wife and I are at our wits end

[Jim]

Natural consequences are the only ones that made any sort of a difference in both difficult child 1 and difficult child 2's behaviors. There were absolutely no consequences we could give either one of them that made even the slightest difference in their negative behaviors. The only thing we accomplished using this technique, was having to deal with extreme "melt-downs," complete with throwing, breaking items, (sometimes physical violence) and verbalizing that could last for hours on end. This doesn't mean we never handed out consequences but we tried to pick our battles carefully.

When we tried to talk to difficult child 1, he intentionally tried to get us angry by attempting to turn our talks into arguments or by twisting the meaning of what we said. If difficult child 1 thought he was getting any sort of a rise out of us, he used to start smiling. He enjoyed it! He admitted much later in a therapy session that he liked to get us angry/sad when he was bored. He said this made things much more interesting.

One of the best tdocs difficult child 1 had, said that when difficult child 1 is at his "difficult child best," talking to him is useless. He isn't listening to what we're saying. As well as remaining unemotional, we should limit sentences to no more than 5 or 6 words. I agree with Terry that things might get worse at first, but given time and consistency, he'll figure out that you mean what you say. Once that "lightbulb" moment struck, difficult child 1 used to tell me that I "was no fun anymore."

Just my thoughts, what worked for us. SFR

Thank you, we have been trying to give praise for the good, (keeping it short) and just ignoring the annoyances, my talks are getting shorter because he too wants to argue, he has told me he likes to argue, we no longer let him pit us against each other, that was a big thing, make mom mad until mom says to me arnt you going to do something about it. its funny everything we thought we knew about parenting is out the window, but thank god my darling 15 year old daughter is so easy to manage.

jim

 

[Jim]

Is your son artistic? Really good at something like music or drawing?

Not really, he could be but is not interested, he excels at pissing people off. lol

He can take any video game and go from zero to level 80 in a day, which takes most kids months, but gets board with that too.

I have been a drummer my whole life, his mom and sister are great artists, when he does draw its fantastic, but becomes board with it.

 

[AnnieO]

Onyxx does the arguing thing too - and then when we refuse to argue, she will try to re-engage us by saying, "you won't argue because you know I'm right".

I finally, instead of arguing the point (!) turned, looked at her and said, "OK, think what you want to" and walked away. Yeah, she blew up, but I kept my cool.

 

[Jim]

Jim~ what were his behaviors like when he was a baby? Any health issues? How was the pregnancy, delivery and your wife's postpartum health? I ask because my child is proof positive that behavior can be shaped by physical health issues.

My Duckie is 11 and has always been difficult. The only psychological/behavior disorder she's been diagnosis'd with is ODD (at age 3). She does have some symptoms of anxiety and Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD), but her doctors don't feel her symptoms are at a clinical level. My daughter, however, has matched almost every symptom you listed for your son (switch manipulation for aggression and minor developmental delays for academic problems and we'd have a perfect match).

She had issues right off the bat. Cried incessantly, had invisible reflux (no spitting up), uneven developmental, frequent colds etc. She was miserable and I was overwhelmed because she didn't sleep through the night until 19 months. My husband was convinced she'd be institutionalized as as adult by age three. She was... angry. She was mean to our pets to punish us. Would walk up to me, smile and say "I hate you". She broke her door frame from repeatedly slamming it one afternoon. The only saving grace we had when she was little was that her hands were weak so we could use baby gates to keep her and our cats safe longer than most parents could. I was really frightened for her future.

Now, my difficult child is a minor difficult child compared to lots of other kids here (at least right now... puberty is knocking on our door), but we had a few things that brought some real improvement. You need to remember that whether a behavior is maladaptive or not that it will become that child's normal behavior if it persists long enough. And we knew that natural consequences, setting high standards and keeping a predictable schedule would work to all our benefit. Our first improvement happened when she was four and we were awakened to her screaming and crying at 5:30AM (10/8/2005 was the scariest day of my life). Her hands and feet had swollen up horribly overnight. To give you an idea of how bad it was: her lower legs were so swollen that the elastic in her socks left bruises above her ankles. That's when we discovered that what our family doctor thought were simple seasonal allergies were actually extremely bad. My daughter had been sick almost every day of her life. She was miserable. Things improved, they weren't great but we had hope.

Then, she became quite ill in 1st grade and had a cough that wouldn't resolve. Her teacher was concerned because it seemed like a nervous cough. I posted here about it and fellow moderator (SRL) told me to have her checked for asthma. My daughter had never wheezed once in her life, despite all her other issues, but I felt we had nothing to lose. It turns out she had cough variant asthma (CVA), and she had been in the midst of a pretty bad asthma attack for a few weeks. Her demeanor again improved as her health improved and she was sleeping better for the first time in her life. But she was still very difficult and demanding.

We started addressing some of her uneven development and discovered she had hyper-mobile joints and a visual processing deficit. Again, she showed some improvement as she learned to master her body and feel less frustrated, but it wasn't enough. She still suffered a little socially and often over-reacted with friends.

Then last year, she had a major meltdown in school. Teacher was actually concerned that Duckie was going to hurt herself: things had been ramping up for weeks: classroom was a pressure cooker of loud and difficult kids, social requirements from the other girls were sky high and she had been feeling sickly and off-center since being exposed and treated for a nasty strep infection a few weeks before. She was like a caged animal: pacing, angry, crying, defiant, overwhelmed. The school counselor spoke with her and had the school Occupational Therapist (OT) talk with me (she knew Duckie from 1st and 2ND grade). She suggested a private Occupational Therapist (OT) evaluation. The private Occupational Therapist (OT) found that Duckie suffered from sensory processing disorder and was ready to jump out of her skin. We followed the Wilbarger Protocol to help train her senses to be better regulated and the improvement has been outstanding.

Is she still difficult and demanding? Yes. But we can all live together in relative peace most of the time and we're better equipped to help guide her through the rough patches now.

He did have colic and gave mom toxemia, when he was born not a peep out of him at the hospital as soon as we got him home, he wailed, couldn't hold down even 4oz bottles of milk, I don't recall him even crawling he got up and started walking at 6 months.

 

[Jim]

Onyxx does the arguing thing too - and then when we refuse to argue, she will try to re-engage us by saying, "you won't argue because you know I'm right".

I finally, instead of arguing the point (!) turned, looked at her and said, "OK, think what you want to" and walked away. Yeah, she blew up, but I kept my cool.

If I told him he was smart, instead of saying gee thanks dad he would say I would have to loose 30 IQ points to be considered smart, he told his mom the other day he did a few nice things for people he said he helped a lady at the market with her bags and mom said that was nice of you, what was the other thing, he said there was a girl outside asking for money because she was hungry so he went in the store and stole her some food.

How on earth do you respond to that?

jim

 

[Jim]

Welcome, Jim.
I hear you, about your son knowing that he's in charge (haha) and being so precocious so young. And I hear you about clueless teachers (and other parents, which you didn't mention, but whom I'm sure have made comments) and who don't have a clue.
I'm thinking that it's kind of a moot point whether he should be on medications if he won't take them anyway, Know what I mean?? It took us yrs to get our son to take his medications with-o argument and even now that he's 15, he'll argue that it's not "Exactly" 8:30 or whatever time he thinks he's supposed to take them. Some of it is his diagnosis (Asperger's) and some of it is wanting to always be in control.
The one thing about these kids is that they don't live in our world. Their view of achievement, accomplishment and how others see us is totally skewed.
I know how frustrating it is that your son can get straight A's, but couldn't care less. We have the same problem. I have to tell him through gritted teeth, "I am proud of you," when he gets one A, and I actually want to wring his neck, lol!
At this point, he's nearly an adult, but one thing I would suggest is that he is emotionally very far behind. I would suggest creating a different scenario in your mind, where he is a 6-yr-old genius, with-no idea of consequences. Because I think that part of his brain is not developed. Did the psychiatric or neuropsychologist talk about that at all?
Do you have other children? Aside from depression, are there other issues in the family tree? A lot of our kids are affected by genetic issues, which are exacerbated by allergies. It can be a food allergy that does not present as a rash, but as a behavior issue. The underlying issue will always be there, but can be coped with-more easily if the allergen is removed. More on that later.
I'm glad you're ordering that book, and there are many others that we recommend. I think there's a forum here that lists books but I can't remember which one! Mostly I stay on this page, and occasionally go to the watercooler, or substance abuse.

I agree with-others who posted that your son needs to experience natural consequences. Just talking doesn't work for him. For whatever reason, he can't extrapolate what-ifs, and doesn't understand social consequences. He has to learn that it isn't just that "You don't steal a $2 item when you've got $100 in your pocket because it's wrong and bad," but that something bad will happen to him that will make him remember it the next time he wants to steal a $2 item. Such as, sitting in juvie next to a smelly jerk who urinates on the wall. (Assuming that would bother him.) Or at least, losing his freedom. And losing the respect or desire of the girls at school who are interested in him, because they don't want to hang out with-guys who've been in JD.
I would keep my voice well modulated, and just follow through with-consequences. He's going to react strongly at first, maybe even physically, saying it isn't fair and he didn't get any warning. But stand your ground and he will learn that you mean it. At least, I hope so.

Man does your post wring a bell Terry, I agree he may have a high IQ but he has the maturity of a 6 year old, its amazing he will wander off to school at 11am and school starts at 7.30 I just pulled his grades from one class look at this:

8/29/11 "Daily Points" Grade: AB (0/10=0%)
8/30/11 "Daily Points_1" Grade: AB (0/10=0%)
8/31/11 "Daily Points_2" Grade: A+ (10/10=100%)
9/1/11 "Daily Points_3" Grade: A+ (10/10=100%)
9/2/11 "Daily Points_4" Grade: A+ (10/10=100%)
9/6/11 "Daily Points_5" Grade: AB (0/10=0%)
9/7/11 "Daily Points_6" Grade: A+ (10/10=100%)
9/8/11 "Daily Points_7" Grade: A+ (10/10=100%)
9/9/11 "Daily Points_8" Grade: AB (0/10=0%)
9/12/11 "Daily Points_9" Grade: A+ (10/10=100%)
9/13/11 "Daily Points_10" Grade: AB (0/10=0%)
9/14/11 "Daily Points_11" Grade: A+ (10/10=100%)
9/15/11 "Daily Points_12" Grade: AB (0/10=0%)
9/16/11 "Daily Points_13" Grade: AB (0/10=0%)
9/19/11 "Daily Points_14" Grade: A+ (10/10=100%)
9/19/11 "Daily Points_15" Grade: LND (0/10=0%)
9/21/11 "Daily Points_16" Grade: A+ (10/10=100%)
9/22/11 "Daily Points_17" Grade: A+ (10/10=100%)
9/23/11 "Daily Points_18" Grade: A+ (10/10=100%)
9/26/11 "Daily Points_19" Grade: A+ (10/10=100%)
9/27/11 "Daily Points_20" Grade: A+ (10/10=100%)
9/28/11 "Daily Points_21" Grade: A+ (10/10=100%)
9/29/11 "Daily Points_22" Grade: A+ (10/10=100%)
9/30/11 "Daily Points_23" Grade: A+ (10/10=100%)
10/11/11 "Daily Points_24" Grade: A+ (10/10=100%)
10/12/11 "Daily Points_25" Grade: A+ (10/10=100%)
10/13/11 "Daily Points_26" Grade: A+ (10/10=100%)
10/14/11 "Daily Points_27" Grade: A+ (10/10=100%)
10/17/11 "Daily Points_28" Grade: A+ (10/10=100%)
10/18/11 "Daily Points_29" Grade: AB (0/10=0%)
10/19/11 "Daily Points_30" Grade: AB (0/10=0%)
10/20/11 "Daily Points_31" Grade: A+ (10/10=100%)
10/21/11 "Daily Points_32" Grade: A+ (10/10=100%)
10/24/11 "Daily Points_33" Grade: A+ (10/10=100%)
10/25/11 "Daily Points_34" Grade: AB (0/10=0%)
10/26/11 "Daily Points_35" Grade: A+ (10/10=100%)
10/27/11 "Daily Points_36" Grade: A+ (10/10=100%)
10/28/11 "Daily Points_37" Grade: A+ (10/10=100%)
11/1/11 "Daily Points_38" Grade: A+ (10/10=100%)
11/2/11 "Daily Points_39" Grade: A+ (10/10=100%)
11/3/11 "Daily Points_40" Grade: A+ (10/10=100%)
11/7/11 "Daily Points_41" Grade: A+ (10/10=100%)
11/8/11 "Daily Points_42" Grade: A+ (10/10=100%)
11/9/11 "Daily Points_43" Grade: A+ (10/10=100%)
11/10/11 "Daily Points_44" Grade: AB (0/10=0%)
11/14/11 "Daily Points_45" Grade: AB (0/10=0%)
11/15/11 "Daily Points_46" Grade: AB (0/10=0%)
11/16/11 "Daily Points_47" Grade: A+ (10/10=100%)
11/17/11 "Daily Points_48" Grade: A+ (10/10=100%)
11/18/11 "Daily Points_49" Grade: A+ (10/10=100%)
11/28/11 "Daily Points_50" Grade: AB (0/10=0%)
11/29/11 "Daily Points_51" Grade: A+ (10/10=100%)
12/1/11 "Daily Points_52" Grade: A+ (10/10=100%)
12/5/11 "Daily Points_53" Grade: A+ (10/10=100%)
12/6/11 "Daily Points_54" Grade: A+ (10/10=100%)
12/7/11 "Daily Points_55" Grade: A+ (10/10=100%)
12/8/11 "Daily Points_56" Grade: AB (0/10=0%)
12/9/11 "Daily Points_57" Grade: AB (0/10=0%)
12/12/11 "Daily Points_58" Grade: A+ (10/10=100%)
12/13/11 "Daily Points_59" Grade: AB (0/10=0%)
12/15/11 "Final" Grade: A+ (100/100=100%)

He will have friends over and do their math homework for them but then not turn in his own, its funny there are 20, girls at school that adore him (I cant see why, maybe because he ignores them) he is a handsome tall well built fella, but he is hung up on one girl that does not want to date him and is very depressed about it.

And yes we have a beautiful vibrant 15 year old daughter, that is a joy to be with and presents no problems, well she is 15, but responds well and is a good kid.

jim

 

[TerryJ2]

Well, your daughter has spoiled you. LOL! We have a wonderful daughter, as well.

Your son's daily work scores look exactly like my son's! We have asked him, and asked him why he doens't finish things and he doesn't know. So we take away his games until his scores come back up. We have arranged for him to stay after school to make up class work. It really works. I mean, he lives for his games.
I do not think he will value school work any time in the near future (or even until the sun super-novas) but at least while he's under our roof, he won't flunk out.

 

[Jim]

Well, your daughter has spoiled you. LOL! We have a wonderful daughter, as well.

Your son's daily work scores look exactly like my son's! We have asked him, and asked him why he doens't finish things and he doesn't know. So we take away his games until his scores come back up. We have arranged for him to stay after school to make up class work. It really works. I mean, he lives for his games.
I do not think he will value school work any time in the near future (or even until the sun super-novas) but at least while he's under our roof, he won't flunk out.

Thanks Terry, yeah having an easy one makes it nice, I know how can such smart kids not clearly see how they can accomplish anything they want, I struggled with math and Logan can do calculus in his sleep, he was in ROTC and quit because he had great respect for sarge, but as soon as he had to take direction from a 10th grader who smoked weed he said no way, I told him the other kid was just higher up on the military ladder and he said I don't care the kids a moron and gets high and hes in 10th grade doing 8th grade math, I am a juinor I'm not taking orders from him, I told Logan well, you can tell the kid to supersize your order when you drive through Mc Donalds, but you have the ability to launch rockets if you want and you were doing his math in 5 grade, so we know you're the better man, but keep it to yourself.


Oh logan wont flunk I have asked him why when he turns in work he gets an A+ and he said I don't want anyone to think i'm stupid.

So he has some arrogance issues as well.

 

[SearchingForRainbows]

Thank you, we have been trying to give praise for the good, (keeping it short) and just ignoring the annoyances, my talks are getting shorter because he too wants to argue, he has told me he likes to argue, we no longer let him pit us against each other, that was a big thing, make mom mad until mom says to me arnt you going to do something about it. its funny everything we thought we knew about parenting is out the window, but thank god my darling 15 year old daughter is so easy to manage.

jim

I'm so glad you no longer let your difficult child pit you and your wife against each other!! This was a huge issue for my husband and I. We didn't realize what was going on at first, caused major problems within our marriage, such an understatement!! Sadly, difficult child 1 enjoyed seeing husband and I argue, the more the better. He would have this strange smile on his face... At times like this, I thought I actually hated difficult child 1. This caused me to feel extreme guilt - How can a mother hate her son?? I only talked about my negative feelings towards difficult child 1 to one very close friend and on this site. I tried to talk to my husband, he just got so angry I thought he would explode. He couldn't understand how I could ever have feelings like this about our son.

husband had to be zapped with a huge dose of reality before he understood what was going on. This zapping took place during a family counseling session after difficult child 1 was released from a psychiatric hospital. After that session, things improved. husband and I finally understood what was going on, that difficult child 1 was pitting us against each other intentionally, just to get a rise out of us, among other things, just so he wouldn't be bored. In addition, I was difficult child 1's main caretaker, husband spent long hours at work and I had to become a stay at home mom (although I did work from home) to take care of difficult child 1, his brother, difficult child 2, and their sister, easy child/difficult child 3 (then a easy child - Don't think I could have handled another difficult child!!)

I realized I didn't hate my son, I loved him with all my heart, but hated what his illness was doing to our family. I now know it wasn't his fault, it was my fault, husband's fault, for letting the foundation of our marriage begin to crumble. We no longer spent quality time together, just the two of us. Most evenings, when husband got home from work, I was totally exhausted, drained from whatever the drama of the day happened to be. husband didn't want to deal with this. He tuned out. Our coping mechanisms are so different, husband thinks with his head, logically, I think with my heart, emotionally. Toss difficult child 1 into the picture, it's like mixing oil with water... Of course this is way too simplistic an explanation, but hopefully enough to paint the picture...

Don't know if any of this makes sense, I'm just relieved that you and your wife are wiser then husband and I were. Sorry, I think I went off on a tangent... Going to end this!

I'm glad you have a easy child! There were times I know I wouldn't have understood the reasons why anyone would choose to have children if it weren't for my daughter. I know this sounds horrible, but I'm being brutally honest. Just wish my daughter were still a easy child...

I agree that when it comes to raising difficult children, you have to toss everything you believe you know about raising children out the window. If only there was a manual on raising difficult children, just think how much easier our lives would be... SFR

 

[busywend]

OK - sometimes genius' (& I believe your son might be just that) have trouble with social norm. They don't "see" the world the same as us average people do. Have you seen The Big Bang Theory? You do not have to be a 'geek' to have this social issue when you are brilliant. It is like they can not understand average people. Some have no patience for it. Some try like heck to understand how the average see the world.

At 17 let him find his way. He has to figure things out on his own. If he is mouthy, stop talking to him. He really will get things best by natural consequences. He has more to learn from a natural consequence than the average teen, too. It will actually help him with the social aspect of life, too. Make him a bit like everyone else for a moment (in his mind).

 

[Jim]

I'm so glad you no longer let your difficult child pit you and your wife against each other!! This was a huge issue for my husband and I. We didn't realize what was going on at first, caused major problems within our marriage, such an understatement!! Sadly, difficult child 1 enjoyed seeing husband and I argue, the more the better. He would have this strange smile on his face... At times like this, I thought I actually hated difficult child 1. This caused me to feel extreme guilt - How can a mother hate her son?? I only talked about my negative feelings towards difficult child 1 to one very close friend and on this site. I tried to talk to my husband, he just got so angry I thought he would explode. He couldn't understand how I could ever have feelings like this about our son.

husband had to be zapped with a huge dose of reality before he understood what was going on. This zapping took place during a family counseling session after difficult child 1 was released from a psychiatric hospital. After that session, things improved. husband and I finally understood what was going on, that difficult child 1 was pitting us against each other intentionally, just to get a rise out of us, among other things, just so he wouldn't be bored. In addition, I was difficult child 1's main caretaker, husband spent long hours at work and I had to become a stay at home mom (although I did work from home) to take care of difficult child 1, his brother, difficult child 2, and their sister, easy child/difficult child 3 (then a easy child - Don't think I could have handled another difficult child!!)

I realized I didn't hate my son, I loved him with all my heart, but hated what his illness was doing to our family. I now know it wasn't his fault, it was my fault, husband's fault, for letting the foundation of our marriage begin to crumble. We no longer spent quality time together, just the two of us. Most evenings, when husband got home from work, I was totally exhausted, drained from whatever the drama of the day happened to be. husband didn't want to deal with this. He tuned out. Our coping mechanisms are so different, husband thinks with his head, logically, I think with my heart, emotionally. Toss difficult child 1 into the picture, it's like mixing oil with water... Of course this is way too simplistic an explanation, but hopefully enough to paint the picture...

Don't know if any of this makes sense, I'm just relieved that you and your wife are wiser then husband and I were. Sorry, I think I went off on a tangent... Going to end this!

I'm glad you have a easy child! There were times I know I wouldn't have understood the reasons why anyone would choose to have children if it weren't for my daughter. I know this sounds horrible, but I'm being brutally honest. Just wish my daughter were still a easy child...

I agree that when it comes to raising difficult children, you have to toss everything you believe you know about raising children out the window. If only there was a manual on raising difficult children, just think how much easier our lives would be... SFR

Last night he was acting up and couldn't get a rise out of his mother and I so he started on his sister, I have been trying to explain to her how to deal with his outbursts, he and his sister are thick as thieves as well, if anyone messes with her they will certainly feel his full wrath, but of course he can rattle her if he'd like.

Of late my wife and I have been trying the things we are learning and can tell as he looses control over us he gets angrier.

We understand fully your hate comment, my wife has said the exact same thing, of course you don't hate your child, but as they present this behavior it just seams so darn intentional, but you as we are, are simply the target and the closest emotionally to the child.

If I were to ask your child (or mine) why do you pick and prod at your mother, their inevitable answer is always going to be "because I can" as parents we will always have the highest tolerance to this kind of behavior from our kids, just think if you had a "friend" or even a spouse that treated you like that, it wouldn't take you long to jump ship on that relationship, our relationships with our kids is kinda like having a boyfriend or girlfriend that just won't leave you regardless of what you do, and the kids unfortunately know this.

Since we are doing a 180 degree turn on him, as far as just blowing off all the inconsequential nonsense he has said "how can you give up on me, you're my parents, I have friends way worse than me" I told him as lovingly as I could, I am not giving up, I am giving in, you have won the battle, I have no more fight left in me for you, I am taking off my gloves and leaving the ring, you win.

He does not like that, there goes the fuel for his fire, If we are no longer willing participants in this "battle of the wits" at least Mom and I might keep our sanity.


jim

 

[Jim]

OK - sometimes genius' (& I believe your son might be just that) have trouble with social norm. They don't "see" the world the same as us average people do. Have you seen The Big Bang Theory? You do not have to be a 'geek' to have this social issue when you are brilliant. It is like they can not understand average people. Some have no patience for it. Some try like heck to understand how the average see the world.

At 17 let him find his way. He has to figure things out on his own. If he is mouthy, stop talking to him. He really will get things best by natural consequences. He has more to learn from a natural consequence than the average teen, too. It will actually help him with the social aspect of life, too. Make him a bit like everyone else for a moment (in his mind).

Thank you for that Busy, yes he certainly is "Sheldon"

 

[mrsammler]

Your son sounds SO much like my nephew. A handful of responses: if you pump up a bright kid too much for being bright, this sort of arrogance can ensue. I did some of this stuff myself as a teen--i.e., didn't try at all, but did others' homework, scored easy As when I needed to but otherwise just made no effort at all--and I can tell you, from the perspective of 35 years later, that I was just trying to live up to my advance billing as "very bright" from being told that too often by easily-dazzled parents and teachers. I saw it many times as a prep school teacher: kids who were over-praised for being "very bright" in undemanding public schools and then they're suddenly thrust into a highly demanding private school, and they just massively malfunction because they can no longer pull the stuff your son is pulling because the level of rigor is so much higher and the kid is no longer the biggest fish in a small pond, intellectually speaking.

My guess is that if you put him in a really challenging boarding school, he'd melt down, because he can't throw his weight around in a program that calls his bluff and where there are many other kids just as bright and brighter. (130 IQ is fine but not all that rare in a good school, where it wouldn't be anywhere near the top score in the student body.) He's doing a lot of this because it makes him feel special & extraordinary, and for some reason he needs that. There's a fundamental insecurity at the core of all this, just as there was with my nephew and many similar students I've known (and me in my teens).

He's almost 18. I think you need to begin telling him that you're not going to send him to college (which would be a complete waste of money until he matures substantially) and that he needs to begin to think about where he'll live and what he'll do when he turns 18 and/or finishes high school--i.e., that you have no intention of simply continuing to house him while he behaves horribly, mistreats you and other family members, and so on. And be real about it--tell him that, a month before his 18th birthday, you'll serve him a formal eviction notice (you need to do this in most states to oust a family member) and that he'll need to be ready to move out on the appointed day. He'll be shocked and all of that, of course, but stick to your guns. He needs to know that all of this nonsense has consequences and that you won't tolerate it in your home, and that it's YOUR house, not his, and he can be put out of it. He'll get the message. My guess is that he'll wilt when he sees that the party's over and he's really going to have to move out at 18. And if he doesn't wilt, put him out. As many have said here, he needs natural consequences. That arrogance will not sustain itself in the face of living in a homeless shelter or on someone's couch.

 

[Jim]

Your son sounds SO much like my nephew. A handful of responses: if you pump up a bright kid too much for being bright, this sort of arrogance can ensue. I did some of this stuff myself as a teen--i.e., didn't try at all, but did others' homework, scored easy As when I needed to but otherwise just made no effort at all--and I can tell you, from the perspective of 35 years later, that I was just trying to live up to my advance billing as "very bright" from being told that too often by easily-dazzled parents and teachers. I saw it many times as a prep school teacher: kids who were over-praised for being "very bright" in undemanding public schools and then they're suddenly thrust into a highly demanding private school, and they just massively malfunction because they can no longer pull the stuff your son is pulling because the level of rigor is so much higher and the kid is no longer the biggest fish in a small pond, intellectually speaking.

My guess is that if you put him in a really challenging boarding school, he'd melt down, because he can't throw his weight around in a program that calls his bluff and where there are many other kids just as bright and brighter. (130 IQ is fine but not all that rare in a good school, where it wouldn't be anywhere near the top score in the student body.) He's doing a lot of this because it makes him feel special & extraordinary, and for some reason he needs that. There's a fundamental insecurity at the core of all this, just as there was with my nephew and many similar students I've known (and me in my teens).

He's almost 18. I think you need to begin telling him that you're not going to send him to college (which would be a complete waste of money until he matures substantially) and that he needs to begin to think about where he'll live and what he'll do when he turns 18 and/or finishes high school--i.e., that you have no intention of simply continuing to house him while he behaves horribly, mistreats you and other family members, and so on. And be real about it--tell him that, a month before his 18th birthday, you'll serve him a formal eviction notice (you need to do this in most states to oust a family member) and that he'll need to be ready to move out on the appointed day. He'll be shocked and all of that, of course, but stick to your guns. He needs to know that all of this nonsense has consequences and that you won't tolerate it in your home, and that it's YOUR house, not his, and he can be put out of it. He'll get the message. My guess is that he'll wilt when he sees that the party's over and he's really going to have to move out at 18. And if he doesn't wilt, put him out. As many have said here, he needs natural consequences. That arrogance will not sustain itself in the face of living in a homeless shelter or on someone's couch.

Those are some good tips thanks, we have told him at 18 he's out, I think I have done more the opposite with him, he tells me how smart he is and I tell him he sure isn't acting smart, we do praise his good behavior, I think the wake up call is going to be his best medicine a good old dose of reality goes along way.

 

[TerryJ2]

Has he ever spoken about college?
Do you have a plan to sit down sometime in April or May just b4 school lets out, to tell him that you will help put all of his clothes and furniture on the curb for him, since he will be providing the transportation and will already have a job and an apt rented by then? (All discussed with-a perfectly straight face, of course.)

 

[SearchingForRainbows]

Those are some good tips thanks, we have told him at 18 he's out, I think I have done more the opposite with him, he tells me how smart he is and I tell him he sure isn't acting smart, we do praise his good behavior, I think the wake up call is going to be his best medicine a good old dose of reality goes along way.

I agree! The best thing we ever did to help difficult child 1 was to move him out of our house shortly after his 18th birthday. We told him that since he was legally an adult, we no longer had to put up with his disrespectful behavior, that we were no longer going to support him financially, and that it was time for him to experience the world on his own.

Although he has an extremely high IQ, his grades weren't good enough to get him into most four year colleges. We encouraged him to go to a junior college not far from where we lived. Looking back, I think the main reason he agreed to attend this school was because he had never had a job, knew he needed a way to support himself financially, and figured out student loans would become his new best friend.

We found him an apartment, cosigned the lease (we had no choice), gave him first and last month's rent, the security deposit, his bedroom furniture, an old kitchen table and chairs, a microwave, some pots, pans, etc.., and food. Once we moved him in, we prayed we made the right decision and hoped for the best.

At the end of June, difficult child 1 will have been living on his own for three years. So much has happened in his life, some good, some bad, but, mostly good. He supplemented his college loans by fixing computers under the table. He graduated junior college (with lots of complaining about his "stupid" professors, how he is so much smarter than everyone else) last May. He moved out of state, started his own company (web design), didn't make it, endlessly pounded the pavement in search of work, bought his first car with his own money, found a wonderful job with an excellent starting salary and benefits, moved to an apartment with a water view, loves his job, his life, and is happier than he's ever been. And, almost forgot to add, my son and I are closer than we've ever been. We've shared some wonderful times together and truly enjoy each other's company. Of course, our time together will always have to be on his terms but that's OK. He is an amazing person, will always be a "difficult child" in some ways, but that's OK too. Now my husband and I pray daily that the "difficult child" part of him won't take over, destroy the life he's worked so hard to create...

Natural consequences combined with a hefty dose of reality can work!! SFR

 

[Jim]

Has he ever spoken about college?
Do you have a plan to sit down sometime in April or May just b4 school lets out, to tell him that you will help put all of his clothes and furniture on the curb for him, since he will be providing the transportation and will already have a job and an apt rented by then? (All discussed with-a perfectly straight face, of course.)

Sometimes he has a plan and sometimes he doesn't, he will be 18 in December (the middle of 12th grade) if he does buckle down and attend we will, let him stay till may when schools out, he has mentioned being a Pilot in the Air Force, I cant see him getting in, he insists he will be judged on his sat scores, which are great, he sees what I do and would maybe like to be an Attorney (ironically because he likes to argue).

He has to go to court next month for his stealing and I am sure he will get probation, I will make it a point to sit down with his PO and discuss his behavior and school attendance, maybe that could be the break we are looking for, finally an authority figure other than his Mom and I telling him what he must do, and providing a real world punishment like juvie hall.

 

[lovelyboy]

Jim....please forgive me if I am totally of track here.....but has any one or even you considered him to maybe be on the AS, Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD)? Why I ask.....I was wondering about this when you mentioned his brutally honesty....his lack of social judgement, his poor motivation and bordom....his lack of insight into social error, arrogance, high intellect, poor goalsetting and planning....you dont mention much about his social skills? Does he have good friends? Any special interests or repettitive bit Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) kind of behaviour? Any anxiety going on?
Kind regards

 

[Jim]

Jim....please forgive me if I am totally of track here.....but has any one or even you considered him to maybe be on the AS, Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD)? Why I ask.....I was wondering about this when you mentioned his brutally honesty....his lack of social judgement, his poor motivation and bordom....his lack of insight into social error, arrogance, high intellect, poor goalsetting and planning....you dont mention much about his social skills? Does he have good friends? Any special interests or repettitive bit Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) kind of behaviour? Any anxiety going on?
Kind regards

He does have friends some going back to 4 years old, as long as they are not strangers he does OK with them, he even had one friend who belittled him allot when they would be playing on the same team on a online game, kind of bullying him, but he stopped talking to the kid and he apologized now they are friends again, he does have social anxiety, he wouldn't go in a store or stand up in class and speak, talk to girls, but his zoloft seams to handle that, he no longer keeps to himself as much, he is not a follower although some friends do influence him into bad behavior ( I guess normal peer pressure) he is very over analytical.

He does not have special interests that he sticks with, this weekend by his moms suggestion he is going out to our small airport and joining the Junior Eagles program, where pilots take the kids up in their planes, which he has done before, but in his case now a willing pilot will mentor him, teach him all about the plane, he will learn it's complex navigation system, mechanical aspects, maintenance and most fun for him go flying with his sponsor all the time, when she asked if he would be interested he responded "Yeah!" so hopefully we are onto something that will actually stimulate him for a change.

This will sound strange............wait for it..............

He is a good boy when he wants to be, its not like we have Hannibal Lector under our roof, with all the help we have received from you guys and others, we are learning the challenges of parenting a child, with oh lets call it, this unusual "gift" lol.

Someone had mentioned did we toot his horn to much and I recalled his granddad who was a scientist and launched the Apollo missions as well as designed aircraft, was a mathematician, blew his horn constantly, when he was 10 granddad told me did I realize that only 6-7 percent of adults have my sons intelligence, grandpas IQ was 165+ he's in the two percent range, granddad could launch and design a rocket, put it on the moon within two inches of his calculations, but couldn't change the oil in his car! so allot of my sons problem is he is "To Big For His Britches".

Hopefully as I have been hearing, life will knock him off his "High Horse" as they say.

 

[buddy]

He does sound like a good kid who has some issues Jim. Sounds like he has some good parents too.

When I read your latest posts it brought me back to some renewal credit courses I took for my last teaching license. I decided an area of weakness of mine (I had always worked in Special Education) was gifted and talented education. I took four classes. (I had some kids on my case load who had aspergers but also qualified for gifted and talented programs so thought I should improve my understanding of this area, not that classes teach everything but it was a start....)

You know what I came away with???? Gifted and Talented teaching is MUCH like special education. Kids can have many of the same social and functioning issues. The planning for them requires the same level of individualized accommodations as for kids who are below average. It was all really fascinating to me. your grand-dad sounds like he fits that mold to a T. Just made me think of it when I read your posts. I am sure it is obvious to you, but I still find it interesting. (makes common sense, but I just didn't really study and think so deeply about it before).