How to even talk on the phone with my son....

[Copabanana]

Update.

A couple of hours later my son called. "What's up?" I asked.

Just called to say, "I'm sorry."

"Just that."

"OK, Bye."

M is disgusted."What is he looking for, he asked, from these calls?"

I could reply, "It's a process." But don't. Better to keep some of this to myself. And to start living life.

Instead of living a life that revolves around waiting for these calls, and recovering from them.

When will I give myself permission to do so? I don't know.

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

Son: "If you just want to say no, say no!"

Me: " 'No'. Goodbye." And I hang up.

Good job, Copa!

Cedar

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

When will I give myself permission to do so? I don't know.

I think that happens when we can see them as the heroes of their own lives. When we can feel how hard the battle is for them, maybe. With my own children? I think there was a time in there when I really hated them, instead of loving them again the way I do, now.

I think that was the difference in the two ways of seeing, Copa. Before, it was all about me. Now, it (addiction or illness or a combination of the two) doesn't have anything to do with me, and is all about them.

It's like everything I think about that filters through them to find its meaning, not through a set of parameters that defines me.

And that's why my kids are beginning to look like heroes to me.

But I had to give up so much to come to the other side. I think I am not through the other side, yet. Right now, for right this minute, all is well, very well, with my family and with my people.

That makes a difference, too. If things are going badly, I suffer right along with them. If things are going well, a natural optimism rises.

All is forgiven.

Cedar

 

[Copabanana]

Understanding that I was filtering the events of the lives of my child through

a set of parameters that defines me

and letting that go allows the beginnings of true respect even awe.

And that's why my kids are beginning to look like heroes to me.

It is a feedback loop, isn't it? Seeing them as heroes we come to feel ourselves as mothers of heroes...instead of constantly fighting them, beating down their valiant attempts to live on their own terms.

And that frees us, not just to feel better, less sad and tired, but to hope and want again, for ourselves.

How it got so complicated, even twisted, hardly matters. Just gratitude for now.

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

I think it gets twisted when we begin to feel we are failing them. It stops being fun to interact with them because we feel so freaking guilty that they are suffering. And it sets up a kind of feedback loop where their suffering is our failure and on it goes. Enabling begins to happen, and resentment rears its ugliness.

And denial enters the picture. (Flourish of trumpets.)

Yeah.'

This has been a very hard thing.

And then, we are dealing with someone who looks like a caricature of our child and we cannot touch that gushing, sunbright thing that always used to happen whenever we saw them or when they got off the schoolbus or something.

So, we are very lost.

Cedar

 

[Copabanana]

cannot touch that gushing, sunbright thing

So, we are very lost.

I am in a dark, dark space and so grateful that you posted, Cedar. I fear my son is delusional and don't know what to do, how to respond, even, how to live with this.

He is frightened. Talks of a light in the sky approaching; of super viruses; of 3 billion dead within 2 months. He believes there are messages embedded in TV commercials that alert us to the threat.

I fear he is less and less tethered to reality and more and more consumed by this preoccupation.

The one bright spot, he talked about calling his two doctors, a specialist for a liver disease and a psychiatric nurse practitioner (newly licensed but caring; my son refuses medication) to talk to them about his beliefs.

And it seems he is approaching police officers to discuss the impending doomsday with them. "Mom, I don't care if the NSA gets me. It is my obligation to alert officials to the impending catastrophe." (Maybe he will get 5150'd, but this would be an only short term solution. I need to figure out a way to live the rest of my life like this, I fear.)

My son in some way seems to understand that there is psychopathology involved because he said he would try to get to the big city near us to gain admission to 2 week residential treatment

I asked him if he would go to a psychiatrist. Only if his mental state worsened, he replied.

He commented that he did not feel he was psychotic, just neurotic. (Insert wry smile here, please)

I did challenge him gently: "When 3 months has passed, and these prognostications have not realized, would you be willing to talk about it?"

He seemed to accept that it was a bit problematic, if he could not think about letting his beliefs go, if they did not unfold according to prophecy.

I guess another good thing is that he recognizes that he has us in his corner, no matter what.

I do not know what to do. For him or for myself.

How do you detach when your child has this kind of fear and pathology? I am kind of not knowing how to live anymore. I fear that only death will stop my pain and I am not ready to die.

M and I have been thinking about going across country to explore living part-time in another state, like do you and husband, Cedar. M proposed that my son go with me on a scouting expedition, with the condition that he stabilize himself, first.

If my son went with me he would have to embark on a voluntary treatment plan: No marijuana. Drug test. Psychiatrist and medication, if prescribed. Medication compliant. Residential treatment if needed. I don't know if it is appropriate or not to impose on an adult child an arrangement like this.

My son just called. Not interested, he says, in traveling with me, unless we go to some remote wilderness place.

Not interested I replied. Looking for urban.

"I will be calling you every day," he said, "just to check in."
"OK, thank you."

There is him (worry and concern). And there is me. (Fear.) Fear of living for the rest of my life with a chronically mentally ill child. Fear that I will not be able to live my life as I need to.

I am not ready for my life to be over. I have lived by goals. I so would love to have one last, big adventure with M. To go to a big city, with lots of Tango, far, far away. Old urban pioneers.

Do I sound like a horrible person?

*I have thought about drugs, here. Meth in particular. Like Lil's, my son denounces Meth users and like him there is a lack of motivation.

What can I do, he is 26 years old? No power to drug test. No power to impose treatment of any sort.

P.S. I remembered just now, that I can tune in to radio station COPA, to find a true voice, hope for the future, strength. I will try.

 

[recoveringenabler]

Copa, have you tried contacted NAMI? They have very good courses/supports for parents struggling with adult kids with mental disorders. They were a big help to me.

Take care of YOU.

 

[Lil]

He is frightened. Talks of a light in the sky approaching; of super viruses; of 3 billion dead within 2 months. He believes there are messages embedded in TV commercials that alert us to the threat.

Oh my. This does sound like we've moved past kooky conspiracy theories and into the realm of delusion.

*I have thought about drugs, here. Meth in particular. Like Lil's, my son denounces Meth users and like him there is a lack of motivation, as well as the interest in conspiracy theories.

Mine does have some attraction to the wacky theories, but he's not at all as extreme. He's more "the Government is out to spy on everyone" and less, "We're all going to die." I could be wrong about my son's drug involvement, but I really don't think so. You don't have to be into Meth or other hard drugs to have problems. Pot makes you paranoid. Add "bad" people into the mix with their weird ideas...some people are pretty susceptible...and think those of us who aren't are just sheep following the herd.

If my son went with me he would have to embark on a voluntary treatment plan: No marijuana. Drug test. Psychiatrist and medication, if prescribed. Medication compliant. Residential treatment if needed. I don't know if it is appropriate or not to impose an adult child an arrangement like this.

I see later in your quote he backed out anyway...but I don't think that if you plan to travel with said adult child, this arrangement is inappropriate. If he wasn't your child, would you want to travel with someone unstable and un-medicated? I wouldn't.

I wish I had advice for you Copa.

 

[CrazyinVA]

I agree with contacting your local NAMI chapter.. they may have some insight as well as advice as to resources available.

 

[Tanya M]

Copa, it may not seem like much but you are making progress. You have set some clear boundaries with your son. That is a good thing.
It takes time to adjust to all of this but I think you are doing great. You have started to detach in a healthy way, it's a process. There is no time limit, you have to go at a pace that you are comfortable with.
Don't be hard on yourself.

There is him (worry and concern). And there is me. (Fear.) Fear of living for the rest of my life with a chronically mentally ill child. Fear that I will not be able to live my life as I need to.

I am not ready for my life to be over. I have lived by goals. I so would love to have one last, big adventure with M. To go to a big city, with lots of Tango, far, far away. Old urban pioneers.

Do I sound like a horrible person?

You are not a horrible person, you are being honest. It's ok to focus on you and not him. Make plans, go dance the Tango, go find some adventures for you and M.
Doing these things are healthy for you. Yes, it feels weird at first and sometimes you might feel a little guilty but you need to let all that go. It's ok to live your life and be happy.

((HUGS)) to you..........

 

[BusynMember]

He is frightened. Talks of a light in the sky approaching; of super viruses; of 3 billion dead within 2 months. He believes there are messages embedded in TV commercials that alert us to the threat

Copa, I did not read the entire post because this so alarmed me. He sounds like he might be seeing and hearing things or thinking there are secret messages to him on TV, all symptoms of schizophrenia. I don't know what you can do about it. Legally nothing. But if he says he wants to hurt himself or somebody else, call 911 and he'll be taken to a hospital. I believe he needs to be evaluated. But...

The other possibility is psychosis due to drug use. When our k ids use drugs, we don't really know what they are taking. He could be on psychedelics or meth or who knows?Denouncing meth may be that he takes it. Or heroin. He could be manipulating you in a clever way. What they say when they are on drugs is usually not the truth.

I would get in touch with the National Alliance for the Mentally Ill to see if you can get any information on what to do, or if you even can do anything. The people who gave psychotic people "civil rights" had their own delusions and no clue what psychosis is. Psychotic people can not be talked out of a psychotic state. It doesn't work. Do you have any information on the mental health of his biological family? That DNA is in him...eating at him...whatever it is.

I'm so sorry I can't help you more.

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

There is him (worry and concern). And there is me. (Fear.) Fear of living for the rest of my life with a chronically mentally ill child. Fear that I will not be able to live my life as I need to.

I am not ready for my life to be over. I have lived by goals. I so would love to have one last, big adventure with M. To go to a big city, with lots of Tango, far, far away. Old urban pioneers.

Do I sound like a horrible person?

Nope.

You need a time away from this time that is killing you.

You are in a tight little space right now, where you know already what will happen, next. We already know what your son will do. He is doing it. For his sake and for yours, I think you should take the trip. That is a way to change things. He may throw a tantrum and take a dive. Or, he may take care of himself and put his affairs and his life in order.

But without some change, there is no room for any of that to happen.

Regarding how we feel about ourselves as we begin this new thing called detachment parenting: Child of Mine posts to us about sitting with the feelings. Just sitting with them. No turning away, no grovelling in there. An acknowledgement that we are doing a difficult thing, that we are creating change, that we love our children, and that we are doing something hard that we don't know how to do.

It is a very hard thing when someone we love is self destructing. There is not one easy thing about it.

But you have us now, Copa.

I fear my son is delusional and don't know what to do, how to respond, even, how to live with this.

You have done all you can.

Legally or any other way, unless you decide to devote your lives to the care and feeling of a practicing addict, you have spoken your piece and your son has refused. Now, you need to cherish yourself through the letting go of the outcome part.

"I love my son. I have done all I can. Addiction is a terminal disease. There is no villain here. If my love could cure him, he would be better already. My task is to let go of outcome."

There is nothing more for you to do, Copa. Which of us is it who tells us that if we say the same thing more than twice, we are ~ oh, I forgot how she says it. The gist of it is that we are being drawn in, that we are not staying centered, when we do that.

Another of us posts that she always thinks twice before saying nothing.

That is what we need to do too, Copa.

Think twice and say nothing. Let go of outcome.

Here is something beautiful I saw, once. It was a hot day. The Southern sun heliographing off everything and the ocean that shocking shade of blue it is on a perfect day. A motorcycle, and a beautiful Latina with flying hair and not wearing many clothes.

But oh she was a beautiful thing to see!

That is what your Tango makes me think of. Smoky nightclubs, red dresses and white candles and those long, thin cigars and red lipstick and beautiful, perfect teeth.

You should definitely do it, Copa.

Cedar

 

[Copabanana]

Here is something beautiful I saw, once....A motorcycle, and a beautiful Latina with flying hair and not wearing many clothes....That is what your Tango makes me think of.
Cedar

That's me you see, Cedar.

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

Oh, that would be so great. I've never forgotten the sight of her. She was so beautiful in the way Latino women are. So free! So, let's just review for a minute, here. Do you choose to stay wherever you are so your son can manipulate you into letting him shower there every day and then, take a nap or...do you choose thundering along the ocean shore on a roaring motorcycle with a beautiful man at the helm.

What to do, what to do....

Cedar

:O)

 

[Copabanana]

So, son just called.

Son: Mom. The couple is in the bedroom arguing (where he has been staying since yesterday.)

Son: This is an emergency mom. I'm sure you can understand their need for privacy. In situations like this, can I spend the night with you guys? Just this one time, Mom.

Me: No. I'm sure you can work it out and I have every confidence you will.

Son: OKaaaay

Me: Bye

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

I am so proud you were able to respond in this way.

Copa? You can expect your son's behaviors to escalate. I think you can expect whichever part of what he has been presenting you with lately that hurt you the most to be the tool he will choose to try to manipulate you into old patterns.

We are all right here, Copa.

Cedar

 

[Copabanana]

I just told my son I was blocking his number and I will.

He had not called in the past few days. I believe he was reacting to my detaching. When I had called him to relay a message, he had been curt.

Today, our phone call had gone okay, until I set a limit. This was his response.

"What? Are you feeling like you're talking to your abusive father", my son mocked?

"Is this bringing back traumatic memories of your Dad?" he taunted."

I ended the call.

My son had called to chat. He wanted my advice about where he has been living the last week or so. He appreciates the stability there and the people are treating him well, he said.

More or less successfully, I tried to stay as neutral as I could, until it entered my mind that he might be making his choices based upon his end times scenario.

I told him I did not want to talk about the end times today, if that was what was influencing his decisions. He became defensive.

In a calm voice, I told him I wanted to end the call because he was interrupting me each time I spoke and treating me with hostility.

It was then that he said those mean things. My son has treated me cruelly many times before. This time, however, I could not turn away from the controlled sadism in his words and more, his tone of voice.

My son had crossed the line to become my perpetrator. It felt almost as if he was identifying with my abusive parent.

This I will not allow.

Despite this, I feel very, very sad and cannot pinpoint the reason why.

My loving child has become my perpetrator.

Increasingly he is seeing he no longer needs us. He is getting by, surviving, making his own choices. This is good.

But it appears, this self-sufficiency leads to the freedom he feels to openly hurt me....

Fine, I say. I do not want a relationship with a grown adult, based upon dependency. And then when the dependency is no longer so manifest, become the target of his latent feelings of disrespect, rage, contempt and hostility.

I am here for a relationship with my son based upon love, caring, responsibility, respect. Those are my terms.

I feel there is no way to have a dialog with someone who chooses to hurt in the way he did. I can find no other way to see it.

Then why am I so sad?

 

[BusynMember]

Because you love him.


We all have to do what we feel is best for us and for them. Copa, in my opinion instead of continuing to abuse you, I think your son sounds like a VERY angry young man. Angry at YOU for sure. I have no idea if I'm right, but that is such a hostile thing to bring up. It is twisting the knife. Perhaps he is thinking more of himself and his birthparents? Wish I could read minds. Don't you?

All of my kids know about my family and none of them ever threw them up in my face. I know I'd cry buckets if they ever did, but in this they stick up for me. All of them. They saw it and know. Did your son ever see that your father abused you? Did he see the exclusion? Your pain? In my case my kids all knew their (cough) grandma never cared to even contact her daughter or them and they would constantly ask me why I bothered talking to my sister since she called the cops on me and hurt me so often. Hurting me was way worse than the cops thing as the cops never really took it seriously. But they saw...they knew...they knew it hurt so they don't like my FOO either. Did your son see it or just hear about it from you? Could make a difference.

I'm so sorry for you hurt and sadness. I "get" why you are sad, but it is hard for me to explain. Just know...I care. I wish he had not said that. I hope you recover and have a wonderful night with your honey tonight. You deserve it!

 

[Copabanana]

SWOT, thank you.

My father died years before I adopted my son.

Yes, my son is very angry. While I am the target, I do not think I am in the main who he is angry at.

I think I stand in for his birth parents by whom he was abandoned. And through the incurable illness he acquired at birth, keep on hurting and stigmatizing him from the grave.

Yes, I am sure he is mad at me because I am stepping back, no longer the endless fount of forgiveness, love and benevolent care, as before, hanging on his every word and deed.

And of course, this is significant. After all, to him, that was my purpose in life, was it not?

He does not like that I have been empowered and that I am no longer acquiescing fully to his wants and needs or hanging on his every word. That, I understand.

At the same time, I cannot be his target.

I may have gone too far, but I am not calling back to walk this back. Let him sit with this and see what he makes of it.

Somebody has to protect me from this? Who will it be if not me?

The question is how.

If anybody has thoughts on how to proceed from here, I am all ears. Thank you.

 

[BusynMember]

Next time you talk to him, and you will, I'd set a boundary. Tell him that under no circumstances will you stay on the phone if he brings up your father or mother or family that hurt you. Period. That you will hang up and block him for three days, until you can calm down.

You don't have to do it, of course, but it's a suggestion. He can not say things that he knows will break your heart. You would not do that to him.