I acted on a suspicion

[Lil]

Mentor is an interesting word.

My son has used that word. He has said he needs a mentor. He wishes he could meet someone that is successful at a job he would like and then do exactly what that person did to get that job. Same schooling, same path, etc.

But then I look around him and he has four very good role models. His brothers both had four years of college and 1.5 to 2 years of trade school. One was on a straight path, never moving far from his original plan, the other had many changes to his path along the way. His father never went to college but worked hard and achieved so much. Myself having some college but having a good work ethic and now have a well paying job that I enjoy. Isn't that the same thing?

Apparently not. Our son is an only child. But he's certainly had good role models. Jabber's job is teaching employability skills to inmates. But even with that, he won't listen to either of us.

 

[InsaneCdn]

But he's certainly had good role models.

He won't listen to either of us.

Ahhh... But. A mentor is almost never a parent. A mentor isn't a role model, it's ... a different relationship. And yes, I keep wishing my kid could have a mentor, too.

 

[Tanya M]

But Momma made them sit down and write book reports. She corrected them when they had excuses and roadblocks. Ben became a famous Brain surgeon and his brother is an engineer. These boys succeeded in life- and history of being raised in ghetto life is usually you fail, there is no way out to anything better. Why did they succeed?

While Ben Carson's is a great success story there was no guarantee that his life would be successful.
I know families that have more than one child, all raised with the same morals and values of knowing right from wrong and having a strong work ethic modeled for them. All the kids but one are successful.

My son is an only child and was raised in home with strong moral values. Husband and I both worked and set a good example of having a strong work ethic. My son had the benefit of strong male role models in uncles as well as family friends. My son is also extremely bright, very high IQ and yet his life is out of control.

There are always many dynamics to be considered. In my case genetics play a big role. My son turned out just like his bio-father and bio-father dropped out of sons life when he had just turned 4. Bio-father was in my sons life very little in those 4 years and there really was no length of time for bio-father to be any kind of influence and yet he turned out just like him.

Even after all the dynamics are considered, sometimes it just is what it is.

 

[BusynMember]

Two kids in the same family with two biological parents can turn out very different.

Ted Bundy was a serial killer. His brother was normal and turned him in. I think much is biological.

 

[Lil]

While Ben Carson's is a great success story there was no guarantee that his life would be successful.
I know families that have more than one child, all raised with the same morals and values of knowing right from wrong and having a strong work ethic modeled for them. All the kids but one are successful.

My son is an only child and was raised in home with strong moral values. Husband and I both worked and set a good example of having a strong work ethic. My son had the benefit of strong male role models in uncles as well as family friends. My son is also extremely bright, very high IQ and yet his life is out of control.

There are always many dynamics to be considered. In my case genetics play a big role. My son turned out just like his bio-father and bio-father dropped out of sons life when he had just turned 4. Bio-father was in my sons life very little in those 4 years and there really was no length of time for bio-father to be any kind of influence and yet he turned out just like him.

Even after all the dynamics are considered, sometimes it just is what it is.

Our situations are very much alike.

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

It's about working together, to do something that neither of you can do without the other. And good horses... LOVE their work. So, why would you deprive them of doing what they love?

Thanks, IC. I'd never thought about it that way.

:O)

Cedar

 

[Jabberwockey]

ep. I tell you the kids noticed and things changed. They did their own laundry, did dishes, packed their lunches from that day on.

Yeah, right now he is doing his own dishes. Last night I had to re-wash what he had washed. Apparently use of soap is negotiable. He does his own laundry, when it suits him, or more accurately when his mother gets sick of the stench because he will happily rewear the same dingy and dirty crap for weeks and forces him to do laundry.

What? So the kids that excelled, worked hard, get no recognition because the ones that can't , won't excel, will get offended. Schools are doing away with D's and F's because it's offensive to the child's psyche. They get C- now.

Just, wow. Complete and utter crap. No wonder this generation is so damned helpless. Pathetic.

Whatever it is, what they DON'T have is motivation, grit, determination, an ability to set and achieve goals, and an acceptance that there will be setbacks with the realization that they aren't roadblocks.

Thats the thing, EVERYONE has roadblocks in their life! The question is do you let them stop you dead or do you figure out a way over, under, around, or through them!

 

[Ironbutterfly]

Yeah, right now he is doing his own dishes. Last night I had to re-wash what he had washed. Apparently use of soap is negotiable. He does his own laundry, when it suits him, or more accurately when his mother gets sick of the stench because he will happily rewear the same dingy and dirty crap for weeks and forces him to do laundry.

Just, wow. Complete and utter crap. No wonder this generation is so damned helpless. Pathetic.

Thats the thing, EVERYONE has roadblocks in their life! The question is do you let them stop you dead or do you figure out a way over, under, around, or through them!

My Grandma who raised me was a very wise woman who lived and survived the depression. She raised 5 kids while my grandpa was overseas in the war. She told me, there is never any excuse to be dirty, even if you are poor. Soap and water is cheap. She told me always make sure I have clean underwear on in case I get in accident and have a dime for a payphone, always.

Personally, Make him eat off paper plates- not allowed to use the dishes. I would also strip out his room, giving him a sleeping bag and a pillow. He would have to earn things back. I would also take the door off his bedroom. Make life so miserable there he will want to move out FAST.

Yes, everyone has roadblocks and difficulties in their life. I think about children who experience severe child abuse, orphans, kids who reside in orphanages( like my sister and I). I think about those kids shuffled from foster home to foster home; lot of people make it through rough times, obstacles, without anyone "teachin'g" them all the necessary skills. They get it somehow. Some of it is just common sense. Oh going in person to apply for a job? I probably should do personal hygiene and wear clean set of clothes. It's not rocket science.

 

[Ironbutterfly]

For starters, they were neuro-typical kids. They started with a couple of handicaps - poverty, no dad. But not developmental differences, mental health challenges, learning disabilities. Yes, you CAN give a lot of skills to neuro-typical kids.

But. Here's an example. If a kid, in grade 1 (notice - too young to have learned manipulation at school yet) keeps on saying that the classroom is too noisy, what does he get? He gets told that he just needs to focus more. HE is the problem, not the classroom. His parents get told that, because he does great with one-on-one instruction, they know he is capable of doing classroom work, but he HAS to learn to work in the classroom. He says he can't. They say he can. What nobody knows for quite a few years is that this kid has an auditory processing problem. So in reality, he CANNOT do what they want: keep up with the class in a normal classroom environment. But, instead, he learns all sorts of maladaptive skills, trying to survive, when he should be receiving accommodations and supports. These kinds of situations are real roadblocks, and there isn't any way for the child (or the child's parents) to get around the roadblock. Major damage gets done this way. And more important than the maladaptive skills that DO get learned... the important life lessons that school is supposed to teach, do NOT get learned.

This is true for some kids out there in those school environments. For my Difficult Child, we had him tested professionally and found out he was learning disabled at age 4. He did go through Special Education programs all the way through high school. I went to most of his IEPs. I fought the school for his rights when they tried to snow me over. He was taught basic life skills by us and in school. He was taught to brush his teeth, hygiene. He was taught to clean his room, make his bed, do chores by us. He was taught morals, respect by us. Fast forward when on his own, he slacked in hygiene, has bad teeth. He lived a wild, crazy life, couch surfing, living on the street, a true homeless person at times. He learned to lie to get things to survive. He learned to con and scam people for money. Present day. He has met a minister, a mentor, the mentor told me he is taking showers, taking care of his hygiene. He is doing good. So for my Difficult Child, he was taught. When he got on his own and was around less then desirable people, he learned other "life skills" to survive. He told me yesterday the mentor helped him put a flyer together for work he could do, basic, simple stuff. He said he was going to get a hair cut to look decent, as his hair was too long. He is progressing for now.

Like Jabber said: we all have road blocks of something in life. We, have to at some point figure things out ourselves or seek advice and support to get what we need to learn and succeed.

 

[Ironbutterfly]

While Ben Carson's is a great success story there was no guarantee that his life would be successful.
I know families that have more than one child, all raised with the same morals and values of knowing right from wrong and having a strong work ethic modeled for them. All the kids but one are successful.

My son is an only child and was raised in home with strong moral values. Husband and I both worked and set a good example of having a strong work ethic. My son had the benefit of strong male role models in uncles as well as family friends. My son is also extremely bright, very high IQ and yet his life is out of control.

There are always many dynamics to be considered. In my case genetics play a big role. My son turned out just like his bio-father and bio-father dropped out of sons life when he had just turned 4. Bio-father was in my sons life very little in those 4 years and there really was no length of time for bio-father to be any kind of influence and yet he turned out just like him.

Even after all the dynamics are considered, sometimes it just is what it is.

I believe genetics play a role. You inherit certain things from your parents. I know my ex husband was a compulsive liar while married to him. He lost job after job. I always worked and supported us. He bowled, he wanted to be a professional bowler. But he would lie and say he was working, but was bowling. When I asked where paycheck was, oh boy, what a story he gave me. I finally called his employer and found out he got fired weeks earlier. That is just one of many examples. His father doted on him, his mom too, bailed him out in jams that some teens get themselves into. Traffic tickets, speeding, wrecked his car, they got him another. His parents were hard working, good people for most part. But they spoiled my ex. To this day, he doesn't have a job. He lived with his mom until she died this past January. She paid him to take care of her, that is how he got money.

Anyways, our son, is just like him with the lying. I truly believe he inherited this trait from him.

 

[InsaneCdn]

This is true for some kids out there in those school environments

I'm in Canada, not the US, so the stats might be different.
But... here, as we finally got the specialists we needed 5-10 years later than we should have, every single one of them told us... we know there should be a lot more kids getting these diagnoses, but we can't find them, or not soon enough. The PhD-level Auditory Processing Disorders (APD) specialist gets about 10% of what statistically should be out there in the school-age population, which means... 90% of these kids are missed.

 

[Lil]

Not to say that learning disabled kids don't need help, or that autistic kids and other types of Special Education kids don't actually need help...please don't anyone think I'm saying that....but...

20, 30, 40 years ago, we didn't have all this special accommodation for kids. Not that I want kids to suffer if they don't need to...but kids who now would be considered ADHD weren't given medications and special classes, they were paddled and sent to the principle for disrupting class and forced to do the work. Kids who couldn't do school work due to learning disabilities may have been labeled as "slow" or something...but they didn't end up on the streets necessarily - they somehow overcame their problems. We didn't end up with generations of traumatized, useless people after all. I mean, I guess I'm just thinking...are we actually doing the right thing with kids these days? Are all the accommodations making it better or worse?

That sounds terrible when I read it. Of course if a kid is learning disabled they should be helped.

Maybe we're just doing it wrong?

But, are there that many MORE kids with problems now? Or does everyone just know about it now thanks to instant contact throughout the world?

More importantly, there has to be some happy medium, right? We have to be able to help everyone live up to their potential without being so lenient with all kids that we allow everyone to get the 1st place trophy so the kid that came in dead last doesn't get his feelings hurt.

 

[Ironbutterfly]

I'm in Canada, not the US, so the stats might be different.
But... here, as we finally got the specialists we needed 5-10 years later than we should have, every single one of them told us... we know there should be a lot more kids getting these diagnoses, but we can't find them, or not soon enough. The PhD-level Auditory Processing Disorders (Auditory Processing Disorders (APD)) specialist gets about 10% of what statistically should be out there in the school-age population, which means... 90% of these kids are missed.

Ahhh, Canadian, I see now there maybe a difference with schools and teaching, etc. I think there is a Special Education program in almost school district in US. That is sad that so many children didn't get the help they needed. I am a visual learner. I do learn from listening and can figure things out. But, I usually have to take notes and keep them for a while. on the other hand, some of my coworkers don't need to write anything down, can remember every word of instruction. I am educated and no learning disability. But I was held back in 1st grade because they felt I was emotionally immature for 1st grade. It was the best thing they ever did for me. But I understand they don't do that now a days- because they feel its traumatizes the children. So they pass them along until they graduate. My son in law is dyslexic. Highly intelligent, can fix or do anything. But he struggles with reading and writing. Because they passed him on vs. helping him over-come his dyslexia.

 

[Ironbutterfly]

Not to say that learning disabled kids don't need help, or that autistic kids and other types of Special Education kids don't actually need help...please don't anyone think I'm saying that....but...

20, 30, 40 years ago, we didn't have all this special accommodation for kids. Not that I want kids to suffer if they don't need to...but kids who now would be considered ADHD weren't given medications and special classes, they were paddled and sent to the principle for disrupting class and forced to do the work. Kids who couldn't do school work due to learning disabilities may have been labeled as "slow" or something...but they didn't end up on the streets necessarily - they somehow overcame their problems. We didn't end up with generations of traumatized, useless people after all. I mean, I guess I'm just thinking...are we actually doing the right thing with kids these days? Are all the accommodations making it better or worse?

That sounds terrible when I read it. Of course if a kid is learning disabled they should be helped.

Maybe we're just doing it wrong?

But, are there that many MORE kids with problems now? Or does everyone just know about it now thanks to instant contact throughout the world?

More importantly, there has to be some happy medium, right? We have to be able to help everyone live up to their potential without being so lenient with all kids that we allow everyone to get the 1st place trophy so the kid that came in dead last doesn't get his feelings hurt.

You know Lil, this is so true. When I was growing up, kids were not allowed to act out- they were paddled, put in the corner, etc. No medications for ADHD. The slow kids were called slow and very much made fun of. Lot of them were not main-streamed either. They had special schools.

Back in my day, they had mental hospitals and facilities and homes for people who were mentally ill or handicapped. Our government did away with those and pushed them onto the street or their families were left to care for them. There use to be boot camps for troubled kids- but bad press, some bad boot camps gone wrong, shut those down.

I think some of it has to do with all the chemicals in the food we eat. Back in my day, there was no processed food. It was all home made. Now you have chemicals in food in the USA that are banned in Europe. You have GMO in everything,

I also think that the teachers, professors teaching our kids these days are over-accomodating our kids. Oh let's be fair, don't hurt anyone's feelings. Well life isn't like that in the real adult world. Kids don't know how to handle criticism, sarcasm and yes, some bullying. Too thin skinned. However, as far as bullying, we have the age of computers and phones and anonymity, so easy to hide behind a screen vs. face to face.

We have kids on their phones, computers, very little face to face interaction anymore.Go to any restaurant or event and what do you see, everyone on their phones. Families not talking.

I grew up, everyone sat at the table and we talked about our day. I think it's a combination of things that have spiraled our children to the adults they have become. Food, genetics, computers, lack of social interaction face to face and easy child brain-washing of our kids.

 

[TheWalrus]

I don't know if there is a difference between sons and daughters or if it just varies home to home, but I have never had an issue with getting my daughter out. To come and live with me is the very, very last resort to her because I am rigid with my rules. My house, my rules. It was never an issue of being clean, as she is compulsively clean, or theft or anything like that. A few of my rules that were intolerable to her because, in her words, she is an adult?

1. No smoking in the house.
2. No visitors in the house unless I am here and know in advance.
3. Let me know when you will be home at night. If you won't be home, let me know so I can lock the doors and not worry.
4. Earn your own money - I am not giving you gas money, a cell phone, spending cash, cigarette money, etc. (She was actually pretty good about keeping a job - at least at first.)
5. Help around the house and do your part.
6. Be respectful - no attitude or mouth.

Never charged her rent (although I probably should have now that I know her money went to meth). She basically wants to be able to come in my home and act like it is hers, do as she pleases, with whomever she pleases, when she pleases, and let me stand idly by and pay the bills. I won't do that.

After the accident and the drug issue came to light and she was diagnosed, I put the stipulation that she had to go to drug counseling ("I am not a drug addict") and get psychological counseling ("I can do it on my own - I don't need help"). She did what she always does, found ANYWHERE to be but here.

I do know others who have kids who would just stagnate in their homes for eternity, but not mine. I am just too "strict."

 

[Ironbutterfly]

Walrus, yes, that is the ticket. YOU want to make it hell to live in your house so they can't wait till get the heck out and the last resort to come back to. I was reading an article today how more and more adult children are living with their parents vs. on their own. They want to have more money, cheaper to stay at parents, have more toys, overwhelmed with debt, want to live rent free, etc.

 

[InsaneCdn]

Go back a hundred years.
We didn't have this insane pre-occupation with "education".
Most kids went to school to the end of grade 4, usually age 12 by then, and started "working out" - helping an neighboring farmer, or the farrier, or the blacksmith, or whoever else as an apprentice.
The girls tended to go to grade 8. Some became nurses or teachers. But many "worked out" as maids, or in factories.
It was only the highly academic that actually got their grade 12. And then got more.

If you weren't a fit for school, you went and did something else.
NOW? They want every single kid to be post-secondary prepared.
Really.

 

[Ironbutterfly]

Go back a hundred years.
We didn't have this insane pre-occupation with "education".
Most kids went to school to the end of grade 4, usually age 12 by then, and started "working out" - helping an neighboring farmer, or the farrier, or the blacksmith, or whoever else as an apprentice.
The girls tended to go to grade 8. Some became nurses or teachers. But many "worked out" as maids, or in factories.
It was only the highly academic that actually got their grade 12. And then got more.

If you weren't a fit for school, you went and did something else.
NOW? They want every single kid to be post-secondary prepared.
Really.

Did you ever see those tests they gave back a 100 years ago in school? OMG, I couldn't answer a lot of them. Talk about pushing knowledge!!!! Bring back that style of teaching.

Today, they do push college way too much- not every kid is college material. Some kids are more geared to trade skills. They need to bring back more and more vocational schools and skills. We now have forever college students in their 30's and owe 100,000 in tuition debt.

I saw on face-book the other day where some school in Alabama actually gave a ghetto test: It went something like this.

There are 20 girls in his gang, and Tyrone knocked up 4 girls, what is the exact percentage of girls Tyrone knocked up?

Another references a drug dealer named Leroy, who 'sells an 8 ball to Antonio for $320 and 2 grams to Juan for $85 per gram'.

What is the street value of the rest of his hold?

If the price is $85 per trick, how many tricks per day must each ho turn to support Dwayne's $800 per day crack habit?

Seriously???????

 

[BusynMember]

Lil, it's not true at all that learning disabled kids just learned to live with their problems. We may not have all ended in the streets, but it was easier for girls to get married young so I married a man who I knew was bad for me because I kept trying hard to work, but kept getting fired for making too many mistakes. I am not stupid. With the supports of today, like sonic got, I'm positive I could have gotten through college and maybe been the detective I'd longed to be. Things are actually better NOW if you are different. Please continue reading.

My husband was mean to me but my mother, who ruled the family, told me I could never come home again and I would have ended up on the streets if I had left so I talked myself into thinking the marriage was ok, we had Bart and then we adopted two kids. I found my niche. I loved parenthood and was a responsible loving parent, but ex badgered a very meek, doormat of a young woman into working "or we'll go bankrupt and lose the house." It was a lie that I believed.

I kept getting jobs and getting fired from them. A few I did keep a while, but most no. When I got fired I'd feel suicidal. Husband's only concern was "you better get another job FAST." I felt so alone and damaged. He gave me no money so I couldn't even have coffee with my friends.

Short version. No, we didn't just get paddled and found our way. We were not allowed to be paddled in school in Illinois and my parents paddled me with words only. Had I not married, I'd have lived on the streets. This is not a new problem since the mentally disabled were thrown out of hospitals in the 1980s. I do not know why people always think it was better back then. Or that the disabled managed to overcome challenges. They didn't. But there WEEE more more unskilled labor jobs then. I tried them all. Many blushing were too hard for me, but I had more options and didn't quit. But witch abusive husband, I'd have been walking the streets in the late 1970s.

There was no internet and cable TV telling about the homeless but they existed. Some lived under the railroad tracks in NYC.

You do not outgrow autism, downs syndrome, learning disorders....drug addiction. A paddle on the butt won't cure that. I do think parents were more apt to keep a d c at home then and before the psychiatric hospitals were emptied, that was a resource as well. But since they have been emptied...those who are differently abled and can't make a living wage, even if they try or are mentally ill or are substance abusers are on the streets.

This is hardly knew to this generation. The good old days were not so good or different for us. There just was no way to show everyone the atrocities of the lives of many.

We need to build competent, caring hospitals for the truly disabled on the streets. And like in most countries, they should not cost a lot or anything.

A view from the other side and, no, it's not pretty. As good as I wanted to be, I could have become a prostitute out of necessity if I hadn't married. I was very pretty. It was all I had. And I would have done anything not to have had to sleep under a bridge.

 

[Lil]

The slow kids were called slow and very much made fun of. Lot of them were not main-streamed either. They had special schools.

Back in my day, they had mental hospitals and facilities and homes for people who were mentally ill or handicapped. Our government did away with those and pushed them onto the street or their families were left to care for them. There use to be boot camps for troubled kids- but bad press, some bad boot camps gone wrong, shut those down.

Go back a hundred years.
We didn't have this insane pre-occupation with "education".
Most kids went to school to the end of grade 4, usually age 12 by then, and started "working out" - helping an neighboring farmer, or the farrier, or the blacksmith, or whoever else as an apprentice.
The girls tended to go to grade 8. Some became nurses or teachers. But many "worked out" as maids, or in factories.
It was only the highly academic that actually got their grade 12. And then got more.

If you weren't a fit for school, you went and did something else.
NOW? They want every single kid to be post-secondary prepared.
Really.

There's this very liberal/socially aware part of me that thinks these things sound terrible. Kids being labeled? Homes for the handicapped? Boot Camps? Not going to high school?

Then a bigger part of me thinks of my parents - My father went to 6th grade and my mom to 8th. They were decent, hard-working people and they expected more for me and my brother. We were bright and they expected us to go to school, get high school diplomas. For some reason, they expected college from me...not my brother. He went to college after I was out of law school, nights, my parents weren't even alive. He went to work after high school and got married young. (Three times lol.) My mom did NOT want me in law school. She was really upset with me when I went and said, "You'd go to school forever if you could pay for it." I didn't know until after she died that they'd been dipping into their very insufficient savings to help me. My mother's goal for me was simple. She wanted me to work in air conditioning. She'd been a cook in hot kitchens her whole life.

But darnit, people are needed in trades too! People need construction workers and welders and mechanics and maintenance men. People are needed in "service" jobs. People need cooks - not Cordon Bleu Chefs, but cooks - and waiters and janitors and window washers and store clerks. Not everyone has to get a college degree.

Makes me feel so old to say, "back in the day" this is how it was done...but there was a lot that was better. A lot of bad too, don't get me wrong. We don't want to go back to the racism and small-mindedness. No one wants the McCarthy era again...but somehow, the world seems to have lost something in our rush to improve. Equality is a good thing...but not everyone is created equal...not because of their race or economic status, but they don't all have the same ability. I could never be a firefighter or a doctor. My husband can't be an artist or a professional musician. I'm never going to win a footrace or a singing competition and I couldn't even as a kid. I don't deserve a trophy just for competing.

I saw on face-book the other day where some school in Alabama actually gave a ghetto test

Yeah...I'd look that up on Snopes or something. I totally doubt that. Most of the stuff on FB isn't true.

Lol, it's not true at all that learning disabled kids just learned to live with their problems. We may not have all ended in the streets, but it was easier for girls to get married young so I married a man who I knew was bad for me because I kept trying hard to work, but kept getting fired for making too many mistakes. I am not stupid. With the supports of today, like sonic got, I'm positive I could have gotten through college and maybe been the detective I'd longed to be...A view from the other side and, no, it's not pretty.

Yes! I agree with you...but it seems that we've gone too far the other way. It seems that the world and the people in it are NOT getting better. There are more and more and more kids like ours. Is it that we're too easy on them? You needed some accommodations that you didn't get. Your problems should have been caught and things done to help you learn how to learn.

Maybe that's it. Maybe instead of teaching kids how to learn, they're having too much done for them? Schools and such have turned the corner from teaching to enabling?

Like I said, it doesn't seem to be better. So maybe we're all doing it wrong?