I acted on a suspicion

[Ironbutterfly]

The big problem with this is that most applications are online now. He is actually job hunting, the problem is that he just refuses to grasp the concept that if you do "This Much" and it isnt enough THEN YOU DO MORE! He's real big on the "Everyone should accept me for what I am" philosophy. He refuses to acknowledge that HE might need to change to make his life better.

Drugs make it worse, but during the period that I think he was actually clean, he was still like this. Granted, when he's getting high it makes it worse.

Not a lot of that available around here. Besides, he spends his check as soon as he gets it. Not sure if he can't or won't save but either way its the same result. He gets money, he spends it.

Ahhh I see. Didn't think about online applications. I guess he will have to learn the hard way when he is out of your house and is forced to live and survive. If he stays, nothing will change.

 

[Ironbutterfly]

Except. For some of our kids, the history of their growing up, and especially school, has taught them that motivation doesn't count, that grit and determination don't get you anywhere, that goals are meaningless, and that setbacks ARE roadblocks. And then ... they are suddenly adults, and expected to act like their peers, but they have not had the life experiences to build the necessary skills. I have a kid like that. A different set of challenges and symptoms than Lil and Jabber's son, but some of the same lessons to learn.

Partly agree. Schools have become complicit and trying to make everyone feel fair and to make sure no one gets their feelings hurt. Coddled I guess is the word. That is not the real world as adults. But this is where parents need to "teach" them. Life is not fair, yes, you are going to get your feelings hurt, yes, there are roadblocks, but you have to keep pushing through. Don't give up. I think of Ben Carson and his life in the ghetto, his mother suffered from depression, their father left them at early age. They were poor. But Momma made them sit down and write book reports. She corrected them when they had excuses and roadblocks. Ben became a famous Brain surgeon and his brother is an engineer. These boys succeeded in life- and history of being raised in ghetto life is usually you fail, there is no way out to anything better. Why did they succeed?

 

[InsaneCdn]

Why did they succeed?

For starters, they were neuro-typical kids. They started with a couple of handicaps - poverty, no dad. But not developmental differences, mental health challenges, learning disabilities. Yes, you CAN give a lot of skills to neuro-typical kids.

But. Here's an example. If a kid, in grade 1 (notice - too young to have learned manipulation at school yet) keeps on saying that the classroom is too noisy, what does he get? He gets told that he just needs to focus more. HE is the problem, not the classroom. His parents get told that, because he does great with one-on-one instruction, they know he is capable of doing classroom work, but he HAS to learn to work in the classroom. He says he can't. They say he can. What nobody knows for quite a few years is that this kid has an auditory processing problem. So in reality, he CANNOT do what they want: keep up with the class in a normal classroom environment. But, instead, he learns all sorts of maladaptive skills, trying to survive, when he should be receiving accommodations and supports. These kinds of situations are real roadblocks, and there isn't any way for the child (or the child's parents) to get around the roadblock. Major damage gets done this way. And more important than the maladaptive skills that DO get learned... the important life lessons that school is supposed to teach, do NOT get learned.

 

[BusynMember]

I truly believe it is a combination. Differently wired people can have many traits that impede them as adults such as unstable moods/emotions, the unreal feeling that everyone's life should be equally fulfilling whether or not one works for it, entitlement, the wrongful idea that parents must provide for them their entire lifetimes and the expectation that society thinks wrong (such as frowning upon poor hygiene and body odor)...and that because society should accept them dirty, they will not change. Some feel inept and it comes out as anger. Some mentally different adults stay angry all the time and blame the terrible world for their own attitudes that hamper them.


I don't think their is one cause. I do think too many adult kids see their peers moving ahead and need to blame someone or something outside of themselves for not keeping up.

They tend to be rigid and stubborn too and refuse to try new things. Those who have mental health problems refuse medications and therapy, which right now is the best we have. Others insist pot helps them and refuse to blame pot for their lack of motivation. The pot issue is so bad with so many adult kids.

I don't think we can really pin it down. But one universal issue seems to be that thy refuse to blame themselves when they don't succeed. And if offered good advice or professional help to become more "able" so many would rather just self medicate and sit around on our dime rather than learning to be differently wired yet independent. It is also harder for many of these failure to thrive kids. But if they refuse to try at all, they won't gain more skills, but some don't seem to care.

 

[InsaneCdn]

But one universal issue seems to be that thy refuse to blame themselves when they don't succeed.

Either that, or they turn the anger inward and self-destruct - drug overdose, or suicide.

 

[Copabanana]

These boys succeeded in life- and history of being raised in ghetto life is usually you fail, there is no way out to anything better. Why did they succeed?

You know I was a young woman near the beginning of affirmative action and worked in a State agency that was largely staffed by affirmative action recipients. Actually, the agency provided jobs training to highly disadvantaged people, disadvantaged in the sense of connections to the dominant culture.

Most of these people thrived with opportunity. Jumped social classes, many times, several. (Actually, I did too.) I do not think Ben Carson is that unique. Except for the magnitude of his success and his visibility.

I think our difficult children fall into at least one of two broad classes: The first is there are developmental challenges, that are not addressed correctly in schools.

Second. I believe that we here on CD are a subset of parents, most of us. Highly involved, highly attuned, with a very great sense of personal responsibility.

I think I fall in both categories. Many, many parents would not have indicted themselves, nor taken on responsibility for what has become an extended emancipation into adulthood.

I believe that is why this site is so helpful for me--and others like me. It raises the option to cease taking responsibility, and to stop self-judgement. What concepts. Who knew?

 

[Lil]

Wow....soooo much I want to respond to and I appreciate what everyone is saying. So if I miss you, I'm sorry.

It is always something to do with everyone else. I wonder if it is just too frustrating for them to look at their own responsibility for the rut they dig. They freeze and hunker down in the trench more and more. Where some folks would eventually "pull up the bootstraps" and grit their teeth, their boots are in still in the dang closet. Mine can manage to go out and party with their friends but when it comes to taking care of business? Totally lacking.

What if we went off the deep end(or pretended to)?
I wonder how they would deal with it if we were depressed, lazy, irresponsible, didn't bathe or clean? Sat around all greasy smoking pot and drinking? Flip the script as they say.

Oh, I'd LOVE to do this. But if the bills were still paid, mine wouldn't care. I'm sorry you have to deal with everything when you should be able to lean on your adult kids.

Leafy, I so appreciate you responding. It's good to "see" you. These kids sound JUST like mine.

New Leaf- No you are not selfish. You worked hard raising your family, sacrificing along the way to give them the best you could. It is your time now, you deserve peace and rest. You know what, you need to move to another city, state, get a small one bedroom cabin, in the woods, with a little stream out your front door. Ahhh peace and serenity. This way- you have no room for anyone to stay.

Leafy can come to Missouri and I'll go to Hawaii. Just saying....

Damn skippy. Looking back, the few times I saw any improvement in d.c.'s interactions, it always followed me going bat $#!+ crazy on him.

Mine would just go bat crazy right back.

Yes, you are going to have to put him out in my opinion, because he is not going to follow through with his end of the agreement.

Our only leverage is throwing him out. He knows now. We will.

I know this. But what leverage is throwing him out, when he knows we aren't letting him come back? We ONLY let him come back this time because the apartment burned. If not for the fire, he would NOT be in our house. He knows this. He knows that any minute now we could put him out. He knows that we have said we'll put him out when the apartment is open. So what leverage is there. We're putting you out and you can never come back...so change. Why? Why change at all? What can he get other than "approval" if he knows it's coming anyway and that it's permanent barring another disaster?

I don't see that we have any leverage.

He's been LUCKY that the apartment opening keeps being pushed back. He's had TIME to find work. But he doesn't see it this way. He sees it as a bad thing because his "friends" have had time to change their minds. K found some girl to shack up with. J is planning on running off apparently. Because he didn't listen to us and get a full-time job...or any job...for ages.

I just read the other day there would be no Honors awards for students at this high school because they didn't want to hurt other kids feelings. What? So the kids that excelled, worked hard, get no recognition because the ones that can't , won't excel, will get offended. Schools are doing away with D's and F's because it's offensive to the child's psyche. They get C- now.

I'm speechless.

They tend to be rigid and stubborn too and refuse to try new things. Those who have mental health problems refuse medications and therapy, which right now is the best we have. Others insist pot helps them and refuse to blame pot for their lack of motivation. The pot issue is so bad with so many adult kids.

I agree.

I can't help but sympathize, just the tiniest bit, that he hasn't applied for these jobs because he won't pass the drug test. But my sympathy runs out about a month back! He KNEW he has to get work. He KNEW that a full-time job is the best thing he can do...necessary if he doesn't have a roommate - and how reliable have those been? He KNEW that these places drug test. SO WHY DIDN'T HE STOP SMOKING POT RIGHT AWAY? By NOW he'd be able to pass the fricken test! He moved in mid-April. It's JUNE! If he stopped right away, he'd be able to pass a drug test now.

But he loves it so much he wants to move to Colorado and grow weed. That's his ambition. I'm so damn disappointed in him.

And I want to help him.

Please understand I don’t WANT to do it FOR him. But like you didn’t know how to use a computer until someone showed you how, doesn’t someone need to teach you how to find work? How to get started and present yourself? I thought I taught him this. I thought he knew. But more and more I think back on how I didn’t actually tell him what to do or anything and maybe I fell down on my job? Maybe he can’t do these things because I didn’t teach him how when he was young.


But he won't listen. He won't listen when I tell him to bathe and brush his teeth and he certainly doesn't listen to us when we tell him how to dress for work. Hell, I tell him I want him to get a haircut for court (pointing out I'm speaking as his lawyer, not his mother) and he flatly refuses. So he’ll walk in there looking like the pothead loser he is, with his “dress-up” clothes and unruly shaggy head. Yeah...he may go to jail.

It's exhausting.

On the up side, I feel pretty well rested today. He went to J's last night and never came home. About 9:30 we went to bed. I will admit, I usually take ibuprofen before bed...flexeril if my muscles are screaming at me. Instead, last night I took a vicodin that I had left over from the last time I had serious back problems. I was not nearly in enough pain to do so, but it's the first time in ages I haven't woken up with my shoulders aching. I think it's time I see an MD about them. I can't be taking narcotics every night as a preventative measure.

I'll be in training all day, with only my phone. So not much responding after this. Again...just me again, with my piddly little problems.

 

[RN0441]

I want to acknowledge so many comments in this thread.

Lil I hear your frustration and I feel the same for my son although it is a different situation. My son was not functioning at all at home either. His thinking was so skewed.

He is doing so much better away from us. Far away. I know that may not be an option for you and I never believed we'd do what we've done. I never thought it was even an option. I still hear a lot of complaining but he is living his life and slowly learning. He does not think like I think he should even now and he is sober so you can only blame the weed so much - in my opinion - with my son anyway. He is sober now. I don't know how committed he is to it. He seems to be but not in the traditional way. He knows he will not have a place to live if he is not and knowing how far away we are, he HAS TO LOOK OUT FOR HIMSELF now. I think with him that is really the key.

Yesterday he told me he walked a mile to the ocean to swim. He has a car but he walked. Alone. He NEVER would have done something like that in a million years here - not that we have an ocean nearby but you know what I mean. Most people would not think that is a big deal but for my son it is a real big deal.

It's not a piddly problem. It is huge. When your child is not doing well it takes over your every thought, looking for a magic solution even though you know there isn't one. There's no easy answer.

I had to get on him about getting a job at his new place. I wanted him to take initiative but seemed to be a bit unsure of himself. After some prodding from me he got moving on that. It seems the more we do for them the worse they get. It's the opposite of any parenting that is normal. I agree that so much of it is MATURITY but what the heck do you do in the meantime?

 

[pasajes4]

My son had extensive training on how to go about getting a job, how to dress, what to say.............. Not just from me but actual classes. None of it does any good if he won't leave the weed alone.

I know you don't want to do it for him, but i have to admitt that if i thought it would help. I would do it in a heart beat.

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

What we need to address what is happening to our families in a stable, compassionate way is a mentor ~ someone who can provide easily referenced, concrete examples of correct response in dangerous, frustrating, crazy-making situations.

Ready, you guys?

Ceasar Milan.

The Dog Whisperer.

Regarding our own energy states, which is the only thing we have any control over anyway, Cesar Milan is a great mentor for us. When Cesar works with problem animals, his emphasis is not on them. He is very aware of their energy states, but the energy state he concentrates on, managing himself to do so, is his own.

What happens to us when our children suffer is that we no longer hold faith with ourselves as parents. Cesar can help us to stand up, can help us recognize and reach for and stay steady state.

He can take us from reacting to responding.

He can teach us the concept, the energy state, of calm dominance. Not over our children or our animals. Over ourselves.

When we have the concept of calm dominant as the primary energy value to strive for in meeting our role as parents, then we will not get lost in the day to day devastations our suffering children create. The concept of detaching, not from our children, but from our emotions, can help us here.

To me, that is the value in the detachment concept. Not that we toss the kids (and our beautiful dreams for our families) to the wind. Not that we devote our energies to rationalizing that somehow, what has happened to all of us is okay.

None of this is okay.

Nonetheless, it is what it is.

Calm dominant is a good response to strive for.

You guys, I have been at this forever. In the day to day devastations, in the ten thousand times I do not have an answer or even a clue, I forget to strive for that energy state, too. But every so often, I remember. Following this post was one of those times. I needed this reminder.

Thank you.

Cedar

Lil and Jabber, the issue with the apartment or with needing to make your son leave is not something that needs headspace today. Worrying about it won't help. Choose a date, set a family meeting for discussing it, post it on the fridge so your son will see it too, and let that pony ride for now.

Practice detaching from the emotions. Come to the table calm dominant in your own lives.

Watch some videos of Cesar bringing a mad dog, a dog doomed and marked for destruction, back into the fold.

You guys. The dog is us.
***

These are the good things you do know: You know more than you did about your son's motivations. You know J is fired. You know your son still has a job.

You know you cannot do this for him.

And if everything is potentially something that needs to be changed, nothing changes.

We can change some one thing, and see what changes.

Yes.

And you guys already know that I think the thing to be changed is our own energy state.

Calm dominance.

 

[InsaneCdn]

Calm dominant is a good response to strive for.

It works with dogs. If you have a "good" dog (say, a "neuro-typical" dog equivalent), you don't HAVE to do this.
But.

With Horses? it is absolutely required. They always respond to what you are feeling and how you are reacting. Not how you intend to feel or act or react, but what you are actually feeling and minor changes in body language.

If everyone had to learn how to work with horses, we'd all be better parents

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

If everyone had to learn how to work with horses, we'd all be better parents

And better people.

Cedar

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

There is a yoga class: Horse Yoga. The title had me so curious. The description had to do with our energy states. I don't have a horse. Whenever I ride a horse, they do not do what I say. How embarrassing. Still, I was curious about this class. After our discussion here, I will take that class. It begins Thursday.

Thank you, IC.

I had not put the Cesar piece and the Horse Yoga piece together.

Cedar

You guys? My kids don't stand a chance.

And my D H has a think or two coming, too.

Once I take that Horse Yoga class, I mean.

 

[RN0441]

Mentor is an interesting word.

My son has used that word. He has said he needs a mentor. He wishes he could meet someone that is successful at a job he would like and then do exactly what that person did to get that job. Same schooling, same path, etc.

But then I look around him and he has four very good role models. His brothers both had four years of college and 1.5 to 2 years of trade school. One was on a straight path, never moving far from his original plan, the other had many changes to his path along the way. His father never went to college but worked hard and achieved so much. Myself having some college but having a good work ethic and now have a well paying job that I enjoy. Isn't that the same thing?

 

[InsaneCdn]

Whenever I ride a horse, they do not do what I say. How embarrassing.

Cedar! I didn't know you actually RODE! I'm impressed.
Sometimes, the horse doesn't do what we "say", because we are not being clear.
Other times, the horse doesn't trust us, because of our body language. If WE are stressed, then they are stressed, and if THEY are stressed and can't trust US, then THEY will "save us" from all sorts of perceived dangers. Trust comes first. And trust when under saddle is based partly on past experience with you (and others), and partly on whether you can be trusted right this minute (calm dominant).

And yes. I wish I had been able to do the whole horse thing as a teenager. It would have made me a better parent and a better person.

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

But then I look around him and he has four very good role models. His brothers both had four years of college and 1.5 to 2 years of trade school. One was on a straight path, never moving far from his original plan, the other had many changes to his path along the way. His father never went to college but worked hard and achieved so much. Myself having some college but having a good work ethic and now have a well paying job that I enjoy. Isn't that the same thing?

Do you think it could be that your son sees the successes of his brothers and parents and it scares him? We don't see the times of decision for our role models. We think they have always been confident. We think they did not have the same questions and uncertainties we do.

We lose faith in ourselves. We protect ourselves from failure in the only way we know. We don't try.

I wonder whether talking to him about how unsure we all are sometimes, and how we never do know where our efforts will end. Maybe, if your son is a reader, biographies of successful businessmen or women would be helpful?

Each of these people will have fallen short of their own expectations again and again.

Or Brene Brown's Rising Strong.

Cedar

 

[Tanya M]

I should be angry. I should be upset. I should be...something. But I just feel kind of empty

Lil, I think at this point feeling empty is very normal. You have given and given to him with him returning nothing but grief, so yes, that would leave anyone feeling empty.

he's so lost.

Yes he's lost but you and Jabber have given him several "road maps" but he refuses to put in the effort it's going to take to turn things around.

A smattering of the things he said: Why does everyone find a good job but me? Why does everyone have more money than me? Why is everyone happier than me? I try. I call every place that has a help wanted sign and I put in applications and they don't hire me.

I swear this is straight out of the difficult childs handbook. My son has said these same things to me many times over the years. I tried so hard to explain to my son that his attitude is one of the first things people see. It shows in your body language and also how you converse. I told him it's obvious you don't want to work and potential employers will pick up on that.
My son also went through many jobs, either quitting or getting fired. His response was always to "blame" the employer. I tried to get him to understand the common factor in all these jobs going bad was him!
I know how frustrating it is to deal with what you are going through.
I think you are handling it really well.

"Everyone is treated better than me." He was very angry that Boost called him at 11:40 when he hadn't shown up. "They never call J. He takes 2 smoke breaks and hour and they never do anything to him. They won't let me get out of the sun even one time an hour. J does whatever he wants." and on and on and on.

Again, taken straight out the difficult childs handbook.

You know that it's up to him to want to make the changes for himself. The sad thing is, he's just not seeing it.
Of course he's miserable and depressed. As long as he compares himself to others and continues to be in an "altered" state of mind he will continue to have a pity party.
Yes, the day will come that you and Jabber will make the decision to "liberate" him from your home. I do not like the term "thrown out". You are not throwing him out, you are liberating him so that he can move on with his own life and you and Jabber can move on with yours.

The biggest of hugs to you Lil. I really do know how hard this is, I've been there.

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

Cedar! I didn't know you actually RODE! I'm impressed.

Mostly IC? When I do ride, which is infrequently, I just sit there. In the saddle. While everyone else gets ahead and my horse decides to go home.

What I need to do is get to know an actual horse. When I was a kid, I read all the Black Stallion books, and Black Beauty. And I always loved horses. They are so beautiful. I love them the breathtaking way I love ballet. That same feeling.

They say there are two kinds of little girls. Those who love dolls, and those who love horses.

I always loved horses. I still do.

I just don't know any. I would like to, though. The thing is? They are so much bigger in real life than they are in books.

:O)

And I am not so sure about climbing on top of them and sitting on them and making them do what I say because I would not like someone to do that to me.

Cedar

 

[New Leaf]

Calm dominance

Absolutely agree, this is taking a stand for peace. I am working very hard to claim this within my heart and home. So many years of turmoil and desperation culminating in hubs passing.
He joked with me towards the end, wanted me to drive a certain way and I said "Nope, I am going this way." He said " Who you think you? Tarzan?" (like the Geico commercial).

So, I am Tarzan, King of my jungle. I don't want turmoil or chaos.
"Tarzan know where Tarzan go."
My d cs are that Jane in the commercial, griping and moaning.
I will calmly beat my chest in my demand for peace.
Calm dominance.
Doesn't mean I do not love my kids, all of them, but they will not be allowed to wreak chaos in my home.

But then I look around him and he has four very good role models. His brothers both had four years of college and 1.5 to 2 years of trade school. One was on a straight path, never moving far from his original plan, the other had many changes to his path along the way. His father never went to college but worked hard and achieved so much. Myself having some college but having a good work ethic and now have a well paying job that I enjoy. Isn't that the same thing?

I think our kids just cannot see what is right in front of them, because they don't want to. This does not pan out in the scheme of blaming their lives on us. That's what I think. If they looked at their siblings and parents work and successes in life, they would have to look in the mirror, they do not want to look in the mirror. It is too hard. Looking in the mirror means having to become responsible and seeking change.
Tornado lamented her Dads passing, hugged him and spoke about how selfless he was, how hard he worked to care for his family. This was right there in front of her......"You don't know what you got till it's gone."
For some reason, these kids just can't see what is right in front of them.
So, we have to claim it. We have to lift ourselves up. We need to become "alpha" again. Put our foot down and stop blaming ourselves for their choices. Stop trying to direct their lives, feel responsible for our adult children who we not only taught better, we showed them by how we lived and live.
Climb out of the trench and live despite what their choices are. They will do what they please in the long run. Looking back there was no stopping my two. No matter what we did, they still made bad choices and ran amuck. Blamed us. We got sucked in.......
We lost precious time, being sucked into the pit of despair.
No more.
I am going to stick with the Tarzan theme.
I am not Jane, needing to be rescued.
I am Tarzan.
We all can be Tarzan.
Claim your jungle.

Leafy

 

[InsaneCdn]

And I am not so sure about climbing on top of them and sitting on them and making them do what I say because I would not like someone to do that to me.

Cedar. You are not a horse. You are a human.
The horse is a prey animal. It knows by instinct that it is way down on the food chain. And it knows that humans are not prey animals.

It's not really about "telling the horse what to do". It's about working together, to do something that neither of you can do without the other. And good horses... LOVE their work. So, why would you deprive them of doing what they love?