I Love a Narcissist. Now What?

[Quicksand]

Thanks, Cedar! You are so kind!

 

[Quicksand]

When your mother dismisses you or is sarcastic when you really just need a hug or mom to listen and tell you it's gonna be ok, that makes you feel like your feelings are dumb and they don't matter. All parents do it SOMETIMES. When it's always that way, you begin to believe it.
Copa, is your mother alive?




UAW has 3 grown kids, they are all doing well. His middle son, who is 36 did take off right after college and ran up a bunch of credit cards and was awol for a while. He got it together and got a masters degree in engineering and is doing fine now.

 

[Copabanana]

Copa, is your mother alive?

No, Quicksand. My Mother died two years ago. It will be two years September 13th. I am trying to be nice to myself these next few days.

I got very sad after she died. I have not worked for almost 3 years. I stopped work to take care of her in October 2012, stayed at her house until January 2013 and brought her to my home then. She died here.

I was almost 2 years in bed.

Through the support of Cedar and Serenity and FOO-work (and an anti-depressant) I am getting better. I do not think I would have without them.

Thank you for telling us about UAW. Is he married? If things do not work out with M...He seems like a wonderful man. You know I am 3/4 kidding. I am actually afraid of most men.

COPA

 

[Quicksand]

Copa, how lucky you are to have been able to care for your mom and that's how it should be, in my opinion... Caring for your parent in their last months, days, hours. It's natural and right. Your mom is there whenever you think of her. We've never known life without our parents and when they go... I don't know... it's so damn difficult.
I'm sorry you lost her.
You will make it through, you are the first person who responded to me when I wrote about my son and your intelligence and compassion really helped me AND my husband to look at the situation rationally. Thank you for that. There's lots of us out here who you can and have helped, so, remember your value when you're feeling blue.
You are a good egg!

As for UAW - married.
Men are challenging...

 

[Quicksand]

Is this thread too old to reply to? Im not sure if I'm supposed to start a new one..
I haven't spoken to my mom who lives in Florida and I'm in the Midwest. If you remember, I was talking about what a nightmare it was down there when my dad was dying. That was November 2014. I been no contact since then. Today, I received a voicemail from her. She said did you get my email? (I didn't) and she said I know your sister has called you ,but I want you to call me! I miss you! And she started crying and hung up. I don't know what to do. I don't want to call her, but I feel guilty.

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

I was talking about what a nightmare it was down there when my dad was dying. That was November 2014. I been no contact since then. Today, I received a voicemail from her. She said did you get my email? (I didn't) and she said I know your sister has called you ,but I want you to call me! I miss you! And she started crying and hung up. I don't know what to do. I don't want to call her, but I feel guilty.

Have you been able to read the email yet?

If it were me Quicksand, I would call her.

What do you think you will do?

Cedar

 

[Quicksand]

I didn't receive an email... Yeah, I just don't know what I will say to her.

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

You know, figuring out what to do about our parents can be seen in the same way that we learn to know how to interact with our troubled kids. The first thing to remember is: We have time. We can do absolutely nothing, until we are sure what it is that we want to do. There is nothing you need to do, right now.

Then I would give you this thing that I learned, and that helps me very much. It is a quote from the Kennedy boy who heads Special Olympics.

Let me win. If I cannot win, let me be brave.

***

The other thing we've learned from our kids about interacting with our parents is to detach from the emotions of the moment. Take a long view. Do the best you know to do, and take a long view.

Cedar

We would like to walk through this with you. You will feel a little stronger knowing we are here, and that we know.

Keep us posted, okay Quicksand?

Wishing all the best.

:O)

 

[Quicksand]

Thank you, Cedar. I am currently camping in the desert in Cali visiting UAW brother. So, I'm not online much while here. I agree with you, thinking of my Difficult Child and the parallels to my mom and the whole messy thing..Right now, I'm waiting and thinking and praying before I do anything.

 

[New Leaf]

I agree with you, thinking of my Difficult Child and the parallels to my mom and the whole messy thing..Right now, I'm waiting and thinking and praying before I do anything.

Hi Quicksand, I am just reviewing this thread.
I have been working and trying to post when I can, as well as look through the old threads and work done here on FOO, to help in my own recollection and try to make some sense of my past.
Cedar, Copa and Serenity have paved the way, and have been most kind and helpful.
I am sorry for what has happened to you growing up, and the horror and details of your dads passing.

It is true, the whole mess with our d c's, parallels with the past, stirs up a lot of guck deep inside of us.
I am glad you have reconnected wth your UAW brother, and are camping in the desert together.
Having a sibling with a sense of reality and truth must be wonderful........

Right now, I'm waiting and thinking and praying before I do anything.

I think this is good, taking time to think and pray on the matter.
I am hoping for peace of mind for all of us, as we walk through this.......every part of it, not only the reality and memories of our FOO, but also dealing with our d cs.
Peace of mind and heart......
(((HUGS)))
leafy

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

I am currently camping in the desert in Cali visiting UAW brother.

I have read that in the desert, the stars are brilliant things, because the air is so dry.

The moon last night was just a sliver.

I am thinking the stars must have been beautiful. Like, breathtaking.

Cedar

I read something once to this effect: That throughout time, animals of every kind will have gazed up at the stars. Fish, even. Snakes and insects and mastodons and wolves and dogs and early mankind. Dolphins, leaping out of the water to see them.

It was more beautifully written than that. I cannot find the exact quote for you.

It blew me away.

:O)

 

[Copabanana]

I read something once to this effect: That throughout time, animals of every kind will have gazed up at the stars. Fish, even. Snakes and insects and mastodons and wolves and dogs and early mankind. Dolphins, leaping out of the water to see them.

Wow.

My dog (Dolly, not so much Romy) and cat (Stella) are the link to the natural world and that most natural part of me. Even though I try to anthromorphize them (I am searching for the spelling of that word, Anthromorphalize, no that is not it. Make them as if human. I mean, it is kind of silly to think that a "Stella or a Dolly would be one's link the to the natural world because I myself am to the same degree natural as are they.

While I have confessed I kiss them on the mouth, I do not yet dress them in clothes, although that is not quite true. Dolly has a hot pink sweater for the cold which she wears proudly and quickly divests when inside her crate/bed.

Last night I looked at my Stella, trying so hard to sneak onto the sofa next to me (my Mom's sofa) and realized how far each of us has come to meet in this relationship. She from a tiger and I from what? I am not sure. But I am surely trying to meet her on her own terrain. I do love her.

Now that I reflect a bit, it is not that we meet each other, each of us coming from some far place to meet somewhere between. We are always there, each of us. Gazing at the stars together. It is finding that place, each of us, where we are together, and always have been.

That is a lovely thought, to me, to find in myself those places or facets that respond to magic. That have always been there and still are. For me to discover or rediscover.

You know when you come upon a reptile, like a lizard or frog they initially still, their age old response to danger, by melding into their environment invisible to a predator. Of course it is not as I am thinking right now, that they wait for the moment that we see them, so that we can recognize ourselves in them, too. Gazing at the stars.

While that could not be true for them it could be true for me. I can make it true.

Late afternoon yesterday I was listening to public radio in the car on the way to the dentist (yuck). The speaker mentioned the transition in the public mind from "mother nature" to mother lode, the change from reverence of the natural world to the sense that we can exploit it. And how the discovery of how fossil fuels such as oil and coal changed everything for us, for our societies and our lives.

The sense of reverence of nature to dominance. Which occurred within us, towards ourselves most of all, towards our own natures and our bodies and our lifespans, too.

Of course this made sense. As nature became a space to be exploited, there had to be developed the people who would act on its transformation from nature to thing.

Who knew that this same transformation would happen to us, that we too would come to see ourselves as a thing, to be mastered, to be exploited, to be bought and sold. Some body instead of "somebody," from subject to object, with subjective becoming something distorted and emotional and biased, instead of us, magical.

There was another speaker yesterday afternoon who began to cry when she spoke of her daughter. And how this changed her. How she had only thought of social change for her own lifespan until her daughter was born, and she realized that her vision of things, that she could envision things for a time beyond which she would inhabit the world consciously.

When I think about that I realize why we fight so much to be what our children need, and will not let go. Look what is at stake for us. Everything that always was and everything that will ever be. Even the stars. Because they only exist (for us or for anybody) if we see them, if they are seen. I will look. Thank you.

COPA

 

[Copabanana]

Hi Quicksand,

I am just seeing now your new post which woke up this thread. I am glad you are back.

Say hi for us to UAW and give him my regards. (Perhaps not. Remember I asked if he was available?)

I agree with Cedar. If you can do it I think I would call your Mom, with one caveat.

Is she triangulating? I mean, is UAW included in this reaching out by her? I would be curious about why not, if he is not. That would not be correct. He is a child, too. Her child. These old patterns live on. I would not participate in his exclusion.

If you do call I would say something upfront, from the start like, I am here in California visiting UAW. I am calling for us both, sending love. That way any triangulation by her is diffused.

You are calling for you, if you decide to call. As Cedar says, so you can look at yourself in the mirror. She may not deserve it but you do. You deserve to be the best you you can be. You are brave and strong. You are coming from self-respect and hope. The belief in change. Your own. Whether or not she changes, you can. Remember forgiveness does not necessarily entail reconciliation. It is the letting go of corrosive feelings in oneself. You deserve that.

If you can I would try to call from that place. The very strong decision in yourself to be the best you. To let go of fear. It is not to forget. It is not to abandon yourself.

Keep posting. We have missed you. Welcome back.

COPA

 

[Copabanana]

You know when you come upon a reptile, like a lizard or frog they initially still, their age old response to danger, by melding into their environment invisible to a predator.

I mentioned awhile back on one thread or another that I went back to a thrift store owned by a quite unusual man. I had been afraid to return. I had not gone back for almost 7 years and this time only went in because I saw on the street what I thought was a Madonna statue, that I wanted for M.

I approached the owner. He remembered me.

Do I know you?

Yes. I explained. From here. I have not come in for a long time.

Is that your boyfriend? He waved behind me.

M had followed me in.

Yes. I live with M.

Of course it is not as I am thinking right now, that they wait for the moment that we see them, so that we can recognize ourselves in them, too. Gazing at the stars.

This man sits in his store and does not move. Like a reptile. He watches you and you cannot sense him because of his stillness. And then you see him and he is staring right into your eyes. For 7 years I remembered. And never knew why.

M left the store. I have to go now. Goodbye. And I followed M out.

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

These were beautiful posts, Copa. I enjoyed the imagery in them so much, and felt again the sense of awe having to do with all of us ~ with all things alive ~ watching the stars.

It's just beautiful, Copa.

And I agree too with the feel of Reptile Man. Funny, how they lock onto us like that, isn't it.

Cedar

 

[InsaneCdn]

This man sits in his store and does not move. Like a reptile. He watches you and you cannot sense him because of his stillness. And then you see him and he is staring right into your eyes

That would have been me, back "before kids".

It's often a sign of being the survivor of serious abuse. Sitting still enough not to be noticed, because it's safer. Looking around by moving your eyeballs not your head. And being hyper-aware of everything that moves.

It took a long time to learn to "act normal". I'd still rather use my radar vision than relax and move my head and have others know I'm looking.

 

[Quicksand]

I'm home now. It was hard to leave 70 degrees to come home to 16! Ugh. I looked and looked at the stars every night and I thought and thought and tried to make sense of it all.
My Difficult Child wanting nothing to do with us and me wanting nothing to do with my mother. My Difficult Child says I'm as bad as my mother and "doesn't forgive me". My heart hurts from statements like those, but my head says he's just trying to wound me because the gravy train has come to a halt and I did not treat my kids like my mother treated hers. Either way, I feel sick inside.

Copa, you hit the nail on the head- NO, she didn't reach out to UAW.

Friday night, she called again while I was in the camper in the desert with UAW & sister in law. This time, her message was- I know I'm being a pest. K (my niece , Dr.gc's daughter) asked if I've heard from you and suggested that I text, but I don't know how. PLEASE call me, I really want to talk to you and hope you feel the same.

I didn't mention in the earlier post that, UAW's son let him know that my mother crashed into a bus after running a stop sign. She broke her pelvis.(she wouldn't hear of not driving for a few years now) She's at home now.

I believe that she needs my help. That is her motive for calling me.

Dr.gc drives past her street every day. My sister lives in the same condo complex, she can't drive but does walk over there every night for dinner. I've been the one who was going 1400 miles to help them when my dad was alive. Going A LOT- which I was willing to do.

I'm not willing now. She has 1 fully capable son and 1 semi-capable daughter to help her. Between the two, they could work it out. She also has plenty of money to pay someone.
I don't know for sure that I'm right, but it feels right.
If she was genuinely trying to pick up the pieces of her broken family, she would be reaching out to UAW as well. She has always excluded him in some way or another. I just can't tolerate that.

I can't wrap my head around what we could possibly talk about. I would have to pretend that the chaos during my dads death didn't happen. That's how it works in my family of origin.

I heard a term "ghosting"- it's a Borderline (BPD) trait- it's when a person is DONE with someone and they just go away from your life.
I question myself on this. Am I ghosting her? Because that is how I feel... I just don't want the stress of dealing with her. I don't hate her, but I don't trust her.
UAW and sister in law were not telling me what to do, but agreed with my theory.

The stars in the desert where just what I needed. Plus I got to see Slab City, which was on my bucket list..

 

[Copabanana]

"ghosting"- it's a Borderline Personality Disorder (Borderline Personality Disorder (Borderline (BPD))) trait- it's when a person is DONE with someone and they just go away from your life.

QS I never heard of ghosting. This is what my sister did to my mother and I as my mother was dying and I was with her.

Am I ghosting her? Because that is how I feel... I just don't want the stress of dealing with her. I don't hate her, but I don't trust her.

These things are very tough.

I guarantee you inside of yourself you are not indifferent to your mother.

Who knows what she really wants? I hate it that she excluded UAW. It is a perfect example of shunning which we are talking about on another thread.

If it were me, I would think about my limits with her. If you are willing to see her, or talk to her, or even help her, or not. There are ways you can help without seeing her. Until I was able to quit my job 1000 miles from my mother, I bought her groceries online and had them delivered. (Von's and Safeway do it).

What feels right in the moment is not always the way it feels after they go. As my mother died I felt a great love for her that I never, ever imagined I felt. I grieved her horribly for over 2 years. I mean, I was desolate. Did not work, leave the house or even the bed. Nobody was more surprised than I was.

I felt the same way as you. I had an almost entirely phone relationship with my mother until she got too sick to take care of herself. I was a afraid of her. I wish I had seen her because I realized afterwards that I would have been strong enough. It would have been the right thing to do.

Asking yourself what is the right thing to do is as important as the thing that feels best.

If you do decide to contact her, I would sure tell her how you feel about her excluding UAW.

The fact that she has children nearby to help her really does not mean anything. You have mentioned that your brother the doctor is mean and selfish. I do not remember about your sister. It may be she has no one.

COPA

 

[BusynMember]

Wow. Nobody ghosts better than my sister. I always did think she had a big dose of Borderline (BPD) in spite of her using that label on me. Interesting. Thanks for the info.

 

[Scent of Cedar *]

I'm not willing now. She has 1 fully capable son and 1 semi-capable daughter to help her. Between the two, they could work it out. She also has plenty of money to pay someone.
I don't know for sure that I'm right, but it feels right.
If she was genuinely trying to pick up the pieces of her broken family, she would be reaching out to UAW as well. She has always excluded him in some way or another. I just can't tolerate that.

You are right in every way. The position you have taken is one of integrity.

This is what happened in my family of origin after my father's death too, Quicksand. For me too, it was the issue of exclusion that I would neither tolerate nor buy into. At that time, I had not done my work here yet. I could know things felt wrong in the way my family of origin was functioning, but they were only a little more obviously wrong than they had always been. So like you, I wasn't sure how to handle it or what to think. I did the next right thing.

Throughout this time, my brother too was being more and more obviously excluded. No phone calls for him at all, expectations for his service to my mother very, very high. (He remodeled her bathroom, fixed her roof, took care of plumbing, had his son rewire her house while she was with my sister ~ or, initially, with D H and me ~ during the Winter months. For free, of course. And then, she told him she did not want his children or grands at her house when she was not there! Though they were doing work, shoveling snow ~ you name it. Unbelievable, isn't it.)

But, unless my mother was here with us, she would not call him. Even here, she did not want to talk to him, so I called him. My D H refused to have my mother here again after the second time. (I made my D H leave after my mother's last visit because he had behaved so badly while she was here. He did leave, but he came back. Somehow, we managed not to be divorced. Probably, that was D H. After the work we've done here on FOO Chronicles, I can see what my D H was telling me was true. At the time Quicksand, and for such a long time afterwords, I could not see the wrong in the things my mother (or my sister) were doing.

Denial is the strangest thing.

Where was I going with this.

:O)

Okay. About the UAW brother's exclusion. So, after that last visit from my mother, she stayed with my sister all through the Winter months. My brother's wife developed cancer. Neither my mother nor my sister sent so much a a card. Neither called. Both knew, because I was still talking to them then and I told them.

It was unbelievable. My brother and his wife have been together something like thirty years. My mother supposedly loves her and etc.

But nothing. Not so much as a card.

Isn't that something.

Fast forward. The wife had many surgeries. She is in good, strong recovery now. Or she was, the last time I spoke to them.

They are also shunning me.

But, before they did, the way it worked was that my sister took care of my mother during the Winter months, and my brother and I did for her in the Summer and Fall. Now comes the part about exclusion: So, I told my mother: You need to call so and so. She did not. I told my sister: Mother refuses to call so and so. You need to call him once a month to let him know how his mother is. (Sister claims, as does your Mr. Important Doctor brother, to be too busy. Oh, so busy.)

And my sister exploded. Over my insistence that she call my brother if my mother would not.

Or even, email him or FB him monthly.

And so, things were whatever they were, with me saying what I said and no one listening to me.

And then, two years ago now, my mother called, was undeniably rude to D H. When I called her on it, she hung up on me. So, when she came home that summer, I did not go there to meet the car and see her in and bring her food and call her every night and etc and all the things I usually do.

So my brother, whom I was protecting and demanding that this exclusionary baloney stop, dropped me, too!

Huh.

You are ten thousand times correct in standing your ground on this one. I agree that the mother expects that you will submit and come to serve her. If she is anything like my mother, she is playing a primo game that you want nothing to do with. If she is anything like my mother, she will subvert the UAW brother.

We have a thread somewhere here in the Chronicles about the narcissistic mother's intent to foment alliances and petty arguments and jealousy between the sibs that persists after the mother's death.

They do this intentionally.

Huh.

It is so unbelievable a situation that even when we are in these kinds of situations, we cannot believe we see what we see or hear what we hear. Or that what is happening could possibly be what it looks like.

It is just what it looks and feels like, and it's the rottenest feeling and I am so sorry this is happening to you, too.

I am happy you camped in the desert with your brother.

I wish for you both that you are able to maintain your good sibling relationship. I wish that for you with my whole heart.

I am very sad about the way everything is for me, and for my family ~ but knowing what I know now, I would do everything I did again in a heartbeat. I wish I'd done it sooner.

But still, it is a hard thing, to be without your real mother and your real sibs in the world.

You are here with us, though. As we work through the way things really were for us, it is good to have the company of those who understand what it feels like. That helps us not to feel that somehow, we are behaving ourselves inappropriately or are secretly jealous or any of the ten thousand other things we think about, when our families of origin are dysfunctional messes.

I did not know the UAW brother was being excluded.

Now that we know that, we know who the mother is, and who the sibs are.

Wicked.

We have another thread Quicksand on the banality of evil. The gist of it, really, is that evil events occur as the result of a series of moral slippages. With amoral choice after choice after choice. It isn't that these people don't know what they are doing. It isn't that these people who are our blood do not know better. They are not stupid, anymore than we are.

We are naive, maybe. But stupid, we are not.

I am glad you have your brother, and that he has you, too.

Our siblings are our witnesses, and always matter.

But the choice becomes to embrace the toxicity, or to take a stand. It could be that in taking a stand, you will bring your family back together. Or, it could be that you will be actively shunned, like me.

Which is a hurtful thing.

But the more I understand the underlying dynamic, and the more I come out of denial, I think there was no other choice for me to make. Even if I had known it was going to lead to this, I would have made the same decisions. It didn't feel like a decision really. I just did the next right thing.

Cedar