I need to be tied to the mast.

[Smithmom]

Copa,
Have you tried treatment for your own depression?

I'm not sure if this will help but I'll offer my thoughts. I'm a unipolar depressive. Never had a manic moment in my life but I do know depression.

I've personally never heard of nor experienced anger as a motivation to suicide. If anger keeps him going then that's a good thing in a way.

While sudden suicides happen, I believe most are planned. That is, you need to be on high alert for suicide if the person starts talking about how, when, where. I'm going to leave myself out in the cold isn't a suicide plan. Its, as said above, emotional blackmail.

His verbiage to you is his pain. Using is, at least partially, to relieve his pain. We all feel that. As his Mom, you especially. We all want to reach out and make the pain go away. But we can't. You can't. You can't any more than you could if it were physical pain. When it's physical pain we run around looking for things to make it better from docs to hot water bottles. We try to take their minds off it with distraction. You've tried all that. But he hasn't. He refuses.

Suicide to me, and many others, is the result of lack of hope. If its never going to get any better why bother. The opposite then is hope. If we see a way that it might get better, if we see options, then suicide isn't necessary. I think this is what you describe as your feelings. Your life will be better in other areas even if not with your son. The question then is where does he see hope or options?

I guess what I'm suggesting is that all you can do is keep throwing options at him. Not options which take something emotionally or financially from you. Its like mailing out resumes. Maybe only one in 500 will get a reply. But you never know when or where that will be. You never know when he might be in a receptive mood. So perhaps, like running around to find hot water bottles, you can put yourself out to charities and any kind souls who can reach out to him. The homeless shelters who deliver sandwiches and blankets, etc.

One other thought and yes been there done that with my son, if you think he is at imminent risk of suicide call 911. The ER won't accept your assessment. But if you make a cogent, reasoned argument to the docs as to why you believe he is at imminent risk they may put him on a 72 hour hold. Again, don't know if it will change him. But it tells him that you take his threats seriously. Its all we can do, keep trying.

 

[Smithmom]

On the subject of money...

Given that at worst he'll collect SSI for life you may want to think about a stipulation for your money eg medical bills or housing only. Saves it from going to drugs.

 

[Copabanana]

Smithmom. I want to thank you very much for your posts. We do not know each other well, but I felt very helped and supported by your words. They have helped me better understand my son and his needs and they have helped me better accept my own feelings and responses.

Have you tried treatment for your own depression?

I do not think I am depressed, in the clinical sense. I was after my mother died, five years ago, but I worked my way out of it. I think the mood and anxiety I suffer now are situational. They wax and wane due to circumstances.

If anger keeps him going then that's a good thing in a way.

This is an excellent point. I think this gives me both a place to stand and it gives me some control--over myself. I have control over how I look at things. How I see and experience his anger, is up to me. I can do as you say. Not take it personally. See it as a positive. As much as he deflects on me, he deflects away from himself. Thank you.

His verbiage to you is his pain.

Yes.

The question then is where does he see hope or options?

Up to now, that I remember, he expresses hope if I offer respite. If I say he can come home out of the cold. That has offered him hope. He does not create or manufacture his own hope.

What he does do is create community in the way he can. Like when he was living at the other house, he is cordial and appropriate and warm. His social skills are good. We have both lived in Latin countries. So he is comfortable grasping a man by his shoulder and patting his back, for example, in greeting. He is considered polite, well-mannered and very well education. He is liked. M, who I live with, who has daily contact with the neighbors, and distant friendships, says that for 2 years ALL of the neighbors insisted J, my son, was a wonder. It took 2 years, and us throwing him out, that triggered my son to display his darker side to them. I think the neighbors would still accept my son back with open hearts. In a way, I could consider this hope, this openness and cordiality to other people. But in terms of saying: I will look forward to going to xxx and do it, or I will go and study xxx, or I will try to meet a girl. No. He did that when he was younger, up until about age 20, but life dealt him some very harsh blows at that age, and life kept dealing him blow after that. Eventually, he discovered marijuana. And that was that.

I guess what I'm suggesting is that all you can do is keep throwing options at him.

I think this is a wonderful way to look at things.

What I hear you telling me essentially, is that I have choices here, of how I look at things, and how I respond generally, and how I respond in particular to his rejection of me, my ideas, and of my "hope." I can decide I want to manufacture hope to throw at him, kind of like the machine that throws tennis balls. Over and over and over, no matter how he responds, without taking it personally.

I very much appreciate what you have told me. Thank you again.

 

[Elsi]

Copa I hope you are finding a place of peace tonight, and you are coming through the choppy waters intact. I see so many parallels between the roads our sons are on. I’m struggling to stay the course here also.

And at the same time there was this hitting bottom sense, again. The awareness that I was crashing against the rocks. And that I could tie myself to the mast. The mast of my own life and my own destiny and my own truth.

I think you need to listen to your intuition, what your body and heart are telling you about what you need for yourself. We have both fought our whole lives to get to a place of peace and self awareness. And we know better than to take that for granted. We had trauma in childhood and have relieved that trauma as parents. At some point we need to honor our right to have part of our lives belong to us. Because how sad would it be if we spend our entire lives, from childhood to our deaths, sacrificed upon alters not of our own making. There does come a time when we have to say, enough.

This is the hardest for me, my consciousness of his circumstances. I can bear it if I do not know. Because I can imagine something better.

I know. Me too. This is why I am not calling S right now. I’d rather not know.

And I came up with a place to stand: I cannot offer him solutions. He needs to come up with one. He is capable of coming up with a solution. Right now his bargaining position, if I infer it from his texts is this: I am degraded. What are you going to do about it?

That’s pretty much what I got from C tonight too.

The decision is my son's. Be a man, and live with consequences. Or be a dependent child, and live within constraints. My son is saying: Neither.

But this is where they are both wrong. Neither is not a choice. The default is live as you choose, and live with the consequences. This is like a law of nature. To think otherwise is like saying I am going to step out of the airplane without a parachute, but I choose not to fall. Not falling isn’t an option. It’s a law of nature. This is what they are up against in their lives, too. Failing to choose is still making a choice, by default. There is no way around it.

The cat and the dogs make good decisions. They want to be comfortable. They come in when it is cold. They do what it takes to be in our good graces. So that they get what they want and need. They learn. J does not want to learn.

I have thought about this many times, too! My animals are so much smarter than my kids sometimes! The little guy in the picture was a feral colony cat, until he decided he didn’t want to be anymore. He saw our other animals through the window and saw they were warm and fed and comfortable. He decided he wanted that, too, and informed us he was moving in (he didn’t give us the option of declining). He had to learn how to use a litter box instead of my houseplants or R’s shoes (we all make mistakes sometimes when learning a new environment). He had to learn how to get along with the other cats. But he was smart enough to figure out the rules he needed to follow to be part of the family, and now you’d never know he used to be feral. He’s also extremely grateful, and let’s me know every day by putting his paws around my neck and rubbing his face on mine. I would love to see C display half as much sense and gratitude.

 

[Copabanana]

Surprisingly I have found some peace today. I am shocked. I pushed myself out of the house to my brasilian jiu jitsu class. I did errands. And abra cadabra I felt better. I am studying my hebrew which is meditative to me. But most of all what changed was this: I decided I would not let my son dictate terms. I would not let him control my side of the conversation and thinking. I decided I would act from love and hope and not consider what were his reactions. He did not text me today except to say, what? And I responded. I responded with love and with patience.

I am purposely trying to act outside of my panic and fear, and trying actively and consciously to keep myself in my own life. Feeling and being creative, friendly with people, focused on my aspirations, rather than him, and what he does or does not do.

I have also decided that I can have a kind of hope for him. Actually, I do not believe in hope. When I say hope what I mean is staying in the present with a positive frame of mind. And believing that positive things can emerge from fertile and tended ground. Now. I understand that I have no role or power or control in my son's life. But just like the gardener waters and gives nourishment to the soil, without its consent, I can do the same with my son. I can shower him with positive options. What he does with them, is his right. (This idea was reinforced by smithmom.) So. I have decided that my son can be my potentially fertile ground. I can see him this way, independent of what he does. Just as a gardener has hope for his seedlings that could well be wiped out by rain or bugs or cold, I can have hope for mine. I can write a note to him every day. A positive note. A caring note. An optimistic note. A loving note.

I like the idea of generating ideas. And stepping out of the way. Typically I am wounded by his reactions. I take in his negativity and I get soaked by it, and I melt. I do not have to. I like what smithmom said about his using anger at me as a coping mechanism. And if this helps him, good. I can be big and strong enough to withstand it.

That is how I am feeling now. This minute. This evening. This hour. Who knows how I will feel tomorrow. With the next volley.

But this is where they are both wrong. Neither is not a choice. The default is live as you choose, and live with the consequences.

I agree with everything you say. But the thing is, both of us know multiple people who do not. They blame others. They avoid consequences. They want it both ways. In fact this is kind of good description of both the ego defense mechanisms, and personality disorders.

But, I agree. That this is the nature of things. Consequences. My son has always insisted on having the benefits of both independence and dependence, and the limitations of neither.

He wants control. He wants dominance. He wants freedom. He wants authority.

He does not want responsibility. Period. He does not want responsibility for consequences. And he does not want responsibility for mistakes. He does not want responsibility to pay for housing. Or any other bill that arrives in the mail.

He wants help to cover for his mistakes. His favorite saying is, "will you spot me for ___?" I had never even heard the expression before. He lives on loans the last two weeks of the month. This is his way of life. I kind of hate it.

But I love him. That's the thing.

I guess I feel more open now. Than I was a couple of days ago. I have to confess, I am feeling more open to his returning. At some point. Why?

Because I am feeling stronger and more capable of withstanding his negativity, and holding my ground. I feel clearer about where I stand. And firmer, standing there.

And because I feel so much clearer that he needs to have skin in the game. He needs to get treatment. He needs to both propose and to follow through on some sort of action to help himself. To let him come back here, like the Pillsbury Dough Boy, would not be being a good enough mother. I can do better and so can he.

I do not know what will come. I do not know if this will get worse. Sooner or later, I will be in panic mode again. But for right now, I am okay.

I did a treatment yesterday, and I am wondering if it has helped me. I went to a woman, a practitioner who does Rolfing and Somatic Experiencing Therapy for Trauma. The rolfing I need for back problems and for peripheral neuropathy I have recently developed. Rolfing apparently helps with how The somatic experiencing is for trauma, particularly early trauma, to acquire better central nervous system regulation. Like magic after a 90 minute session, the pain from the neuropathy greatly decreased. I still feel the tingling and mild pain, but much much less. And I feel this sense of tranquility and greater strength. Nothing can work that quick. But about 24 hours after the session, I felt this change. I was unsure if I would continue, but for sure, I will.

The little guy in the picture

Would you share his name? I have had two black and white short haired male cats in my lifetime, Fred, and Cal. Both have been dead for maybe 26 years and more. I still miss them. I believe black and white short-hairs have the most loving of dispositions of domestic cats. Or maybe I am just compatible with them.

Thank you so very much, Elsi, for your counsel, understanding, and support. It means so much to me. Your support, and that of others.

 

[Copabanana]

But this is where they are both wrong. Neither is not a choice. The default is live as you choose, and live with the consequences.

I agree. But the thing is, both of us know multiple people who do not. They blame others. They avoid consequences. They want it both ways. In fact this is kind of good description of both the ego defense mechanisms, and personality disorders.

I think that holding to the very true thing, that life has consequences, period, could be crazy making. Because it is as likely as not that our sons, our children do have personality disorders from which they are unlikely to recover, and that our lives with them, will be fraught with conflict if we insist that they accept the consequences of their behaviors, or else. What if they are constitutionally limited from doing so, by their personalities? What would our own rigidity do to our relationship with our children?

I think Lil is a good model here. I have heard no evidence her son has a personality disorder, but Lil is accepting him as he is, and valuing the relationship they have. She is also validating and valuing her son's choices. Which have been stellar of late. But what shifted, is her son left her area, and he made a life. He met a girl, and with that, everything changed. He changed. I think anybody on this board if they told the truth,was surprised, if they told the truth. It was just.like.that. (I am so happy for her.)

I do not know how I feel about all of this, this accepting of consequences, which in theory and reality is unavoidable, to avoid great cost to everybody.

But I have insisted my son change. It has come to naught. And I have insisted he leave. And this has led to great suffering on his part. And he gets worse. And thus, I suffer and my life gets harder. This is not an argument to not have boundaries, or to not insist on consequences. Not at all. It is a reflection. Nothing more. Because I want to have relationship with my son.

My son loves the word "consequences." He uses it like this: what is my consequence? Like a child would think of a punishment. Give it to me, and lets get this over with. Like hail marys after confession. Something that an authority doles out, and then there is a clean slate. No learning. Judgement and punishment are applied externally. I just hate that way of thinking. Childish thinking. Never any responsibility to monitor and govern behavior and to take responsibility.

What if this never changes? It might not. So far. There has been no learning by my son. What will change? What would get it to change? The only thing that comes to mind, is fatherhood. M and I both believe that paradoxically my son would respond to being a parent. But there is no remote possibility on the horizon. I believe my son has given up.

My musing here is about what is our game plan if this is it? If there is minimal or no changing. And the change has to come from us. What is my game plan? I want one. I do not want to reject or distance my son for the rest of my life. I want to accept him, but be defended. This would be real growth on my part.

Thank you very much, Elsi.

 

[Smithmom]

You got what I meant absolutely. Keep flinging into the darkness. Nothing else you can do and it will make you feel better. As long as you can realize that the anger is doing him good so you don't internalize it ok. If you internalize it then stop it. Having my own mental illness I've been able to see it as a symptom of an illness, not a personal assault. (How I want others to see my irritability)

Glad you found some things to make you feel better today. Life has to be one day at a time. Try to find those things that make you feel better every day.

You recall the post I put up here about my son. I'm still cut off. I'm still the focus of his anger. Nothing I can do about it. I miss the person he was at times in his life. Not the angry person. Not the addict behaviors. But my post here gave me peace with my decision. And that peace has lasted these weeks with no contact. Our situations aren't the same. But we have made tough decisions and have to live with our sons' reactions. As I've said before, I've been practicing "tough love" so many years, longer than you for sure, that I have learned to let go. I again wish you peace.

 

[Elsi]

Would you share his name? I have had two black and white short haired male cats in my lifetime, Fred, and Cal. Both have been dead for maybe 26 years and more. I still miss them. I believe black and white short-hairs have the most loving of dispositions of domestic cats. Or maybe I am just compatible with them.

His name is Hamilton. Because we spent the money we were saving up to see the show when it came around next year at the vet instead. I guess we’ll wait for the ten year revival to see the show! But he’s a doll baby. He’s actually a lovely grey and white. And amazingly soft.

Surprisingly I have found some peace today. I am shocked. I pushed myself out of the house to my brasilian jiu jitsu class. I did errands. And abra cadabra I felt better.

That’s what always works for me, too. Keep moving. Do stuff. Don’t think too hard.

And because I feel so much clearer that he needs to have skin in the game. He needs to get treatment. He needs to both propose and to follow through on some sort of action to help himself. To let him come back here, like the Pillsbury Dough Boy, would not be being a good enough mother. I can do better and so can he.

This sounds right to me. Like you, I have no intention of cutting my son off entirely. I see my role in his life as a kind of mirroring: when he is trying, I step forward and do what I can to help. When he is angry and bitter and pushing away, I pull back. The hard part comes when he is both pulling me in and failing to help himself. Then I have to be strong, tie myself to the mast, and stand my ground. So yes, I would insist on him having some skin in the game as a condition of your physical and financial support. We can always give love and emotional support, to the best of our ability.

I think that holding to the very true thing, that life has consequences, period, could be crazy making. Because it is as likely as not that our sons, our children do have personality disorders from which they are unlikely to recover, and that our lives with them, will be fraught with conflict if we insist that they accept the consequences of their behaviors, or else. What if they are constitutionally limited from doing so, by their personalities? What would our own rigidity do to our relationship with our children?

I understand. Truly. I have spent decades trying to tease out the difference between can’t and won’t, for both myself and others. Mental illness is real. And heartbreakingly, the illness impacts a person’s motivation and ability to seek out and comply with treatment. And yet, people with mental illness do find help and get better and live mostly normal lives all the time. What is the difference, between those who do and those who don’t? Is their illness less debilitating? Or is there still an element of choice, no matter how badly someone is impacted by these problems, that makes the difference between good outcomes and bad? I don’t have the answers.

I struggled with this in my marriage, too. My ex was abusive, often violently so. And a lot of that came from real mental illness. He had depression and anxiety at the least, and was quite probably bipolar. He had PTSD from his own childhood abuse and from experiences in the military and police force. So what was I supposed to do with that as a wife? For years, I told myself I wouldn’t leave him if he had cancer or diabetes, so why should mental illness be different? Didn’t I promise to stay and support in sickness and in health?

But living with someone with untreated mental illness is not like living with someone with diabetes. It is like living with someone with diabetes who not only refuses to get treatment and insists on eating cake at every meal, but also has you hooked up to their blood supply do whatever they do to themselves impacts you as well. I came to realize that I could not fix him and I could not stay with someone who refuses all possibility of treatment. His life is very sad, and I am sad for him, and for the kids who have no real relationship with him. But sacrificing myself would not have changed this outcome. And I am a human being with my own life and my own needs, not a tool solely for his use and benefit.

The equation really isn’t different with our kids. If feels different, because as mothers we take on complete and total responsibility for another’s life. But that responsibility isn’t meant to last forever. It can’t. They may need more help and support than most people at that age, and you and I have both been more than willing to give that, to meet them so much more than halfway and reward and reinforce every baby step they take for themselves. We will probably both continue to do that. Because we love them, and we want to see a better outcome if it is possible.

My son loves the word "consequences." He uses it like this: what is my consequence? Like a child would think of a punishment. Give it to me, and lets get this over with.

Yes. He’s still thinking of consequences as coming from you, and not from life. He needs to learn that this is not a punishment but simply cause and effect. And the only way I know to help them learn that is to let them feel those consequences. To not soften the blows life gives them that result from their own choices. For me, it has been learning to offer love, and sympathy, and no judgement, without jumping into rescue mode. Oh I’m so sorry that happened. That sounds really hard. What do you think you’re going to do about that? But not: how can I help? What can I do for you?

What is my game plan? I want one. I do not want to reject or distance my son for the rest of my life. I want to accept him, but be defended. This would be real growth on my part.

That’s what I want, too. It’s a tightrope to walk, between maintaining the relationship and maintaining our sanity. Between providing love and appropriate support to help them get back on their feet without enabling. Because I do think there is a role for helping, sometimes. There are holes too deep to get out of by yourself, and saying ‘well you shouldn’t have gotten yourself i there then!” Serves no purpose. But, neither does trying to pull them out while they are still digging their hole deeper. I’m still struggling with all this myself, as you can see in my own threads. When I write to you I am really writing to myself, too. Because I also need tied to the mast.

When I say hope what I mean is staying in the present with a positive frame of mind. And believing that positive things can emerge from fertile and tended ground. Now. I understand that I have no role or power or control in my son's life. But just like the gardener waters and gives nourishment to the soil, without its consent, I can do the same with my son. I can shower him with positive options. What he does with them, is his right. (This idea was reinforced by smithmom.) So. I have decided that my son can be my potentially fertile ground. I can see him this way, independent of what he does. Just as a gardener has hope for his seedlings that could well be wiped out by rain or bugs or cold, I can have hope for mine.

Copa, this is beautiful. I love this image. And it is where I have come to also. Loving without expectation, but still holding out some form of hope. I don’t think love is ever wasted, or wrong.

I hope you are holding on to your peace today.

 

[Smithmom]

I want you and him to see hope in both the fact that you keep throwing and in the substance of what you throw. Whether its a nun offering him a sandwich or the phone number of a local addiction hotline, you both need to remember that there are options for him. All kinds, a medical clinic for a check up, a free dental clinic, a suicide hotline, rehabs in far away places, the things he might grab onto you can't predict.

I probably didn't put this well... The anger is no different than the blood curdling scream of a newborn in pain. Its expression of pain. Its disturbing. But remembering that its an expression of pain or a symptom of an illness has always helped me deflect it from being personal.

 

[Smithmom]

If you look at how far you have come in detaching...i promise that not taking the anger and suicide comments personally will happen. Time and practice.

 

[Copabanana]

Smithmom. Question: Do I keep writing even if he does not respond? Do I limit myself to once a day? Do I keep making suggestions even if he is not answering back? Or just tell him good morning, and that I love him. And leave it at that? I have never done this before.

Today his response is again, something like, forget about me. We're done. (Let me find the text.)

After saying good morning and that I loved him I told him about the somatic therapy I want to and how I thought it might be something that would help him.

He responded: Can't happen while I am in this situation. Please leave me alone. We're not connected anymore. I'm at the bottom of the Pacific.

I wrote back: I reminded him of a song he liked when he was little, Under the Sea, from The Little Mermaid. And while I could not control what he chose, I would stay connected and I loved him.

I fear he may be blocking me.

I wrote: What will get us connected again?

And later: Everybody starts where they are.

I guess I am getting desperate. This empowers him. That I beg.

If I look at it from the point of view you suggested, empowering him is not a bad thing. As long as I stay centered in myself.
____

This is very hard. When we made my son leave, he was violating boundaries all over the place. I had to call the police over and over again. I became traumatized and afraid. When he finally left our town I began to feel safe again, and centered in myself for the first time in a long time. I have a history of abuse, like so many. I do not think that I am afraid of my son; but when he does not take responsibility for himself, his actions, and violates boundaries i get triggered.

In a text a few days ago, after I reached out, he used the word "confused." I think he is confused that I am reaching out. And does not know how to deal with me, if I am not going to solve his problems.

While I do not think my son blames me for his situation or his troubles, I think he uses blaming and meanness to feel control over himself. I agree with you. It is a defense mechanism. One that I do not begrudge him.

I have resentment toward my son for sinking so low. That is the truth.

Thank you.

 

[Copabanana]

it all comes back to all you can do is love him and love yourself.

This quote is from yesterday. I love it. Thank you TL.

how far you have come in detaching

Thank you smithmom. Very much.

 

[Smithmom]

We're all allowed our feelings. You can resent him. You can fear him. He can be angry with you. For your own emotional health how do you best handle those feelings? Negative emotions like fear protect you. What does resentment do for you?

No one has answers. What works today doesn't tomorrow. If limiting yourself is good because it helps you focus on the rest of your life than do it. Might work the same for him. I think multiple times in a day probably has you focusing on negatives not positives. If he's just deflecting then he only needs to do that once a day. What's normal relationship contact for you? Are you a person talking to your best friend 10x a day or every other day? No right answer but your relationship with him you need to put in context with how you handle your relationships. First anyway.

I think some days you say I love you and that's it. Some days its I love you and here's a phone # for xyz clinic I hear they do xyz exams for free. That's it. If he says something negative you respond with I'm sorry you're cold, hungry, lonely, that's all. If he questions why you gave him the # just say that you heard about it and were sharing. Probably sharing unrequested numbers more than once a day is a lot. I think there also has to be a day when you don't contact him. See if he contacts you. But no argument with anything he says. Just let it roll off you. Just like the under the sea comment. I think that was a good reply. A happy memory in reply.

 

[Kalahou]

Copa dear,
I have seen you on this site for the last 3 years, and taken to heart much of what you have shared (to me, to others, and to yourself). You kindly were one of the very first to respond the first day to my initial post seeking wisdom and guidance from PE. In your first post to me, you stated

I am dealing with the fact that he could well die, and there is nothing I can do.
As parents, it breaks our hearts to see our children suffer or self-destruct. We seem to want to do anything to avoid this. ... It does not work. ... There is a point where they either do what they need or not. ... We realize that the only one we can save is us.

You saw this truth 3 years ago, and you know it is still true today.
In the time I’ve "known" you on the site, I have seen you waver with the “winds and waves” of change and heartache (we all do this to an extent). But these “ups and downs” are our problem (not Difficult Child’s problem – DCs don’t care how or why we waver and don’t want to know).

At this time, you are at a low, but know that you are going to be alright. You know of and have used the resources in the "tool box" to help … (if and when you want to). Sometimes, if truth be known, we just don’t want to pull ourselves up for a while, and we want to focus on and sink in our despair. We want to stay "involved" and stay "attached." It does not work. It takes effort to pull our own selves up again, when we are ready. You'll get there.

From following along with this current post and your texting exchange with J, it seems evident that:

· J does not want to / is not ready to change, and does not want to reciprocate a positive relationship at this moment. You are wise, and know this is so …. but you want it to be different … You want it to be “your” way.

· You also recognize that your fear and guilt about J is very much about how your own sense of personal identity and sense of your own value is tied up with thinking you must (and can) make a difference with J. You know you cannot … but you do not want to accept that.

· You express that you have faith, you have hope, … but you want to have faith and hope on your terms. You do not want to let J (and all he represents to you) go ... you don’t want to trust the process.

I have previously shared the “mantra” below, that is helpful to me. I’ll post it again, as it came to mind and seems to fit here.

· Stop trying to fix someone else’s problems
· Stop trying to encourage change in someone who doesn’t want to change.
· Stop giving repeated chances to someone who abuses/takes advantage of forgiveness and support.
· Stop trusting nice-sounding words (often lies) while ignoring/tolerating destructive actions.
· Stop giving my strength and effort toward a relationship that isn’t reciprocated.

Copa, I do not mean to be hard in these comments. You already know the truth of what’s happening. I hesitated to post because I thought you may take it as unsupportive, but I want you to know I’m following you, and holding you high in thoughts. I love you, sister.

You are going to be alright. Bless, Kalahou

 

[Smithmom]

Blocking you and not replying is another manipulation. If you don't want to jump to rescue him with suicidal comments then he'll cut you off. That will make you jump won't it? Pushing you and pushing you... The only power he has to get what he wants.

 

[Elsi]

Copa I think smithmom and kalahou have given some wise counsel, and I won’t repeat it. But on your specific question of how much contact to have, I’ll share what’s worked for me. I know you’ll come to your own balance.

For me, I find less is more. I don’t contact them daily. I reach out just enough to let them know I’m still here and accessible. And I try to have zero expectations for the kind of response I will get or whether they will respond at all.

Right now, with c, I do have contact about every day. That’s unusual in our relationship, and reflects the situation I’ve been in with him these last few weeks. For me, this level of contact is too much to sustain with him, because I find myself getting sucked into problem solving. He is looking to me for answers he needs to be looking to himself for. I’m trying to regain the balance with him.

Typically with both c and s I just maintain a low level connection. I may text a couple times a week. Nothing big - just something that says hey, I’m thinking of you. A cartoon. A funny meme. A throwback picture from happier times. Or just a note - hey, just checking in to see how you are. Love you.

Then I leave it. Sometimes they respond, and we have a little conversation. Sometimes they don’t. If they don’t, I just leave it there. They’ll get back to me when they’re ready.

I think your seed analogy is beautiful. When you plant a seed, you have to walk away and give it time. You can’t beg it to grow. Throwing more seeds at the ground won’t speed things up. Drowning it with more water than it needs may do more harm than good. You have to let it be. To grow on its own time.

 

[Copabanana]

maintain a low level connection.

If you haven't guessed already, I AM INTENSE and so, it seems, is my son. AND DRAMATIC. And so, it seems, is he.

To me, THIS IS OPERA. When really it would be better if I was humming down the street.

Thank you everybody. I am learning a lot. And I am working on being my own seed today, and watering me.

 

[Smithmom]

Yes its drama for sure. What I hated about having my older two at home. I just hate drama but my middle one thrives on it. To each his own.

If intense means you talk to your friends all day every day then once a day or once in a while isn't you. It may be Elsi and I but its not you. Your balance may be different. But what is your son's balance. If one of mine texted me all day I'd lose my mind. If I had a lot of anger I might say something hurtful. Where is your son's comfort level? The balance is not only your ability to tolerate the pain and frustration of contact vs knowing he's OK but also how much contact works for both of you. Multiple things to juggle simultaneously.

I also routinely tell my son to stop texting/ calling me and that I'm not answering or even reading the texts. When he gets out of control that's all I can do. He's not here so I don't have to kick him out. But I also don't have to be emotionally and verbally abused. Yes, his neurological status at work. But he needs to and refuses to find other ways to handle himself. Out of my control.

 

[Copabanana]

If one of mine texted me all day I'd lose my mind.

Yes. Me, too.

I am having a hard time thinking about this in the abstract. Because I am worried about him. Maybe what he is saying is not true. Maybe he is in a bed somewhere. Maybe he wants to make me feel guilty, because I had a bottom line. I need to chill.

Thank you smithmom.

 

[Smithmom]

Yes. Detach. Make a plan tomorrow.