I understand now!

[Nomad]

Star...I too like your story/stories. They are very helpful.
It is very difficult when you realize that chance are they will have to pay a high price before the lesson is learned.
But, I have also developed some sort of faith/resistance/acceptance that "it is what it is. I can't do it for my difficult child. I can't do it for her on two levels:
1) I just don't have the power (think Star Trek! LOL!)
2) In the end, the chances are slim that she will learn/grow/improve if I do things for her. Indeed, doing things for herself is likely the only way she will learn to be self sufficient.

Because she has a diagnosis and also has other medical concerns, I'm willing to provide some assistance with medical treatment...but even that is limited.
We have learned to do our best to not get so emotionally emeshed and to avoid being difficult child's little assistant. Instead, she is continually pushed to do things on her own and fortunately (knock on wood) with many things, she is going in that direction.

 

[standswithcourage]

Yes I understand that it is me that needs help. No my therapist doesnt think I should help him at all. At night is my hardest time - when I am laying in bed thinking I wonder what is going on tonight - but then I pray and pray for God to take that burden from me and He does. I am trying. He called today and I did not answer.

 

[Hound dog]

He called today and I did not answer.

Good for you.

You may need to cut off contact with difficult child until you feel confident in your detachment skills.

Hugs

 

[witzend]

and then we find out you did exactly what we said you shouldn't do.

I don't think that's it. I think it's frustrating that she does exactly what she says she knows she shouldn't do.

Stands, I'm really glad you didn't answer.

 

[Abbey]

You know, I hate to say it, but it is so easy to detach from J now. It took a long, long time, but it's easy now. I rarely talk to him, but if I do it's because he has taken the time to actually call me just to chat.

No one held my hand when I was 25. I made stupid choices, but I lived through them and continue to live through them. I never went whining to mom about them.

It's YOU time and he needs to get a life. If he doesn't...so the cards fall and you have to let that house of cards crumble.

I've always said that these kids have a remarkable way of surviving on their own. And they do. It's hard to watch, but I think it is something they need to do without mamma having a break down every day. It really annoys them that you actually have a life going on with all their drama. They want you in their drama. No. Grow up.

Abbey

 

[CrazyinVA]

Detachment does get easier with time. There are always specific circumstances that are more difficult than others, but overall, saying "no" and not rescuing, comes more easily.

And yes, they do survive, somehow. I'm watching Oldest go through another cycle now of quitting another job, breaking down and threatening to admit herself (but not doing it), conning Xanax and/or Ativan out of the ER staff for a panic attack, and somehow convincing another boyfriend to "take care" of her. All interspersed with partying at night and having so much fun she's dancing on top of the bars with friends.

Yeah, they figure it out, somehow.

 

[Star*]

(admits - LOVES Star Trek - live long and prosper)

Thanks for the compliments.

God Grant MEEEEEEEEEE the Serenity
To ACCEPT the "child" I CAN NOT CHANGE
The courage to change the person I can (myself)
And the WISDOM to accept the loving advice of my friends who KNOW the difference.
Amen.
AMMMMMMMMMMMEN
AAAAAAAAAAAA MEN A MEN A MEN

SING IT TO ME PEOPLE

AAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaa men
(sing it in the choir)
AAAAAAAmen
(Sing it in the hallway)
Aaaaaaaaaaa aaaa MEN A MEN A MEN.....
(LISTEN TO ME CHILDREN)
dances out of the building.......

 

[Nomad]

Star: Naanaanaa hey hey hey amen. I totally "get it."

STW: Very glad to hear that you are sticking with- the therapist and relying on spiritual guidance as well. Wishing you the best.

 

[meowbunny]

Stands, here's why I think you are attention-seeking rather than asking for help. You don't tell us what is going on -- we have to read between the lines or, worse yet, see the "news" in a reply you've done to someone else.

Your son moves back in. Nothing by you until someone else does a post about it. Your son has now moved out. You don't tell us about it, you mention it as an aside. Did he move out voluntarily or because you guys said go? Are you helping him in any way where he is? Don't you think that at least those who truly care what happens to you would have wanted to know these pieces of news?

Look at posts by others. If there was news they didn't tell, the first thing they do is apologize and try to explain what took them so long. We all pretty much write our honest feelings. We don't use cryptic messages. Several have asked what you "understand" now. You have yet to respond to any of that.

We all post differently but there is some commonality -- there is an honest discussion about things that have happened and why. We care enough about each other to be honest. I've not followed the advice given me to others here. However, I went out of my way to explain why I didn't. I ate crow when they were right and they rejoiced when my way worked. You just keep on doing the same thing over and over but never really explaining.

These are the reasons why I think all you are doing is seeking attention. What we say and how we feel is basically irrelevant as long as we say something.

Hopefully, you can get some help from your therapist. Believe it or not, I do want your son to succeed and your family to be happy. Be as honest as possible with your therapist. Try to find out why you have such a need for control, why you are willing to enable regardless of the risk to your son and the cost to your family. Keep going to meetings. You do need all the help and support you can get.

 

[scent of cedar]

Stands would not be the first person to have stopped posting, or to have left the site entirely, because her responses to her addicted child did not meet with approval. None of us asked for the hell our children have put us through, and not a one of us comes here again and again because she already knows what to do. In sharing our stories ~ and they are not all successes ~ we support and strengthen one another.

Condemnation is never helpful.

Barbara

 

[witzend]

Barbara, I honestly don't see the condemnation. Although I haven't read all of the responses lately, this has been going on for days. Meowbunny, and others, hit the nail on the head. What is it that Susan understands now? Why does Susan mention that her son is living with another couple who happen to "live the same lifestyle as he does" as an aside in a sentence that is mostly about the other couple expecting a baby rather than write and say he moved out and why?

No one here has ever said that Susan isn't suffering, or that we don't feel her pain, or that she deserves to live the life she does. I have never in my life seen anyone get as much support and encouragement as Susan does. I have never seen five people together get as much support and encouragement as Susan does. But honestly, what the heck is she talking about? These are the things that happened that she has told us about in the past several months, but never given details or a reason for:

1) Her son was in jail. We don't know what he was charged with, we don't know if he was convicted or plead guilty. We know he was sentenced to time served for whatever it was.

2) She bailed her son out of jail, but we don't know why. She told us right up until the day she bailed him out that he couldn't come home, then two weeks later after being suspiciously absent, she mentioned it in someone else's thread.

3) Her son's bail was revoked. We don't know why.

4) She told us her son could never come back to her house again right up until the day he came, then she stopped posting for another week or so, and mentioned it in someone else's thread. She didn't say why. She didn't say how he got there. She didn't say if he called her, or showed up on her doorstep, or if she sent him money to come home, or if her husband bullied her into it, or she went and got him. He's just home.

5) She says she understands now. We asked what she understands. Several times. She won't tell us.

6) She says he's moved out. She doesn't say why. Did she tell him to leave? Is he clean? Is he using? Did her husband tell him to leave? Did he just go out and not come home? Is he coming back? I know, it's silly to ask that question, but - is he coming back?

So another two pages of hearts and flowers and some finger wagging at Susan, and she hasn't answered a single question. She leaves it up to us to assume - whatever it is that we assume. And we haven't heard from her in a week or so again. Does that mean he's at home again?

I totally get it that you feel that some of us are hard on Susan. I totally get why you feel that way. I absolutely understand that you feel that Susan isn't ready to change but intends to. But in all honesty, can anyone ever point to a post where Susan says "I need to change my life because I am the one who controls my life"?

I know that you are one of her biggest supporters, and that these exchanges bother you very much. Maybe you can help us to understand Susan so these exhanges will stop. What does she want? Why is everything a secret? She knows every minute embarassing excrutiating detail of our lives and we know nothing about her or her son. It's not like she started this behavior after an unhappy exchange, it's been that way since last August when she joined the group. Her problems seem so obvious to us, so everyone writes a novella explaining how to very simply correct her behaviors in a way that will help her and help her son. But in all actuality, she's never asked us how to help her son. She's asked us if she should have done something different in the past. She's asked us what will happen in the future. But she has never asked us what she can do today to make her life better. So, maybe people are foolish to offer this advice to her. I've said it before and I'll say it again. It seems like we aren't answering her needs. But she won't say what she wants or what she needs or what she expects of us. So these wonderful kind people here keep trying to help her anyway even though we don't have a clue about anything other than she actually hasn't told us - or asked us for - a thing.

Do you know what it is that she understands? Because I honestly don't. I'm still waiting, and I haven't condemned her. I just want to know if she can offer us a complete thought process on what she umderstands. No one condemns what she does with her son. We all understand how difficult it is and I for one find it insulting when people insinuate that I can't possibly understand how hard it is for her. What I don't like is the way she treats us. At all. Like we're here for her to use as the logical part of her life because she seems to use no logic at all. Life just happens to her.

So, Susan, Barbara, anyone - what is it that Susan understands? How did her son get home? Why is he gone? What does Susan want?

 

[standswithcourage]

I guess what I mean by understanding now is that since I have been going to counseling I understand how frustrated everyone felt with me.

First - my son went to jail for contributing to the deliquency of a minor back in Oct. 2007 - I thought I had already said that

Second - he sat in there until March when we thought (since the ministry man had been going to see him) that maybe he was ready for rehab - so that is when we bailed him out - the ministry man took him to a rehab (Christian) about 20 miles away from us and helped him get in - my son did not stay - he caught a bus back to Greenville - we a llowed himi to come home (Mistake) we hung in with him for about 2 weeks and he continued on the same path so we called the bondsman - told him where he was and had his bond revoked.

Third - when he got out of jail - he was in columbia, SC - July - he called wanting us to come get him - we said no - he caught a bus back to Greenville - we went to get him downtown - he came home - we had a talk he needed treatment - he couldnt stay here especially when no one would be here once school started - we gave him almost a month to find a job and get himself together and he didnt - when we had our floors refinished we had to go to a motel for a week - he couldnt go - didnt want to - so he hooked up with a long lost friend and lives in the slums in a trailer with him so he can smoke pot and whatever else - his friend has never been to jail - he has a job as a telemarketer and hopes to hellp my son find one - it is a weird story of how we have tried to hellp our son - this other kids dad always kicked him out - i thought it was pititful but anyway - I guess I should have posted something different - I am just kinda stressed - sometimes I dont say what I mean and it may sound crazy but I do listen to what you say - I wouldnt keep coming back if I didnt - just bare with me - does that answer any questions? The counselor told me and my husband to make sure my son knew we loved him, he could come and eat with us, we are not giving him money, he needs treatment and when he gets treatment we will entertain the thought of him coming home - she is an addicitonolgist. I am trying.

 

[CrazyinVA]

I have to say.. I just googled "addictionologist" because I had never heard the term. It isn't a very reputable title, from what I read. Please be cautious, Susan. I think a Certified Substance Abuse Counselor might be more appropriate, but it's not my call, obviously. There is no certification for "addictionologists." I'm still concerned about the focus being on your son, and not on YOU. If this counselor is talking more about your son's issues than about you and your husband's codepedent/enabling issues, than I'd recommend you find another counselor.

I'm curious, why do you think the other boy's father kicking him out is pitiful? Or did you mean the boy himself is pitiful?

 

[witzend]

Susan that clears up a lot of the missing information. I'm not certain why when he came to Greenville that you brought him home to tell him that he couldn't come home. That's what coffee houses are for. Once he had one foot in the door, you were hooked.

I think that it is really important for everyone in general to write complete thoughts. "I did this because that motivated me and it made me feel..." or "and it ended up being..." Or stretch it out to a paragraph. You really actually haven't explained any of those things to use before. And at this point it is still only a recitation of the facts. Honestly, if you would just stick with one thought for each action that you do, you might understand why you do the things you do much better.

For example. Whatever reason it was that you brought him into your house, it was probably pretty stupid. Whatever reason you said he could move in for a limited period of time, it was probably pretty stupid.

This advice is for the "collective you", which is also the "collective we". It's not at all important for us to understand those stupid decisions. If you want to help yourself to help your son, it's really important that you understand why you made those stupid decisions. Because honestly, all you have to do is type it out a couple of times and read it back to yourself and see what it is that motivated you to make a stupid decision and how to avoid it in the future.

So, all in all, yes it cleared up some history. It didn't clear up what how you come to make those decisions. Was it the same pitfall each time? (I personally believe it is.) Was it a different reason each time? I believe that each and every time you think he is going to try to make you the hero of the story by allowing you to save him because of whatever BS story he is feeding you.

Please, Susan. If you need to post, post something along the lines of "difficult child called me from the station and we had a long talk. He said that he really needed to come home because... so we compromised by..." or "we bought into it and I really think it's going to work". The offhand remarks that he is living in your home after you ignored us for weeks is irritating at best and insulting to many of us who offered you advice over and over which you said you understood and would act upon. You are glibly posting that you did exactly the opposite of what we advised and opposite of what you promised you would do, with no reason whatsoever. I have talked to you about how irritating the group finds this to be before in a PM. Now I'm saying it in public because I think that it might help some to understand why we are so frustrated.

The next time you post, don't just hit that "post" or "reply" button after you give us "just the facts". Look at the post, and see if you explained why you did what you did, and if what you did is pleasing to you or if it makes you unhappy. It will be more benefit to you, and it will upset the group less. I'm going to PM this message to you as well, because I'm really not certain that you read the public messages. Even though you say you do.

 

[Abbey]

My last 2 cents.

Susan, I've been where you are. You REALLY WANT your kid (young man) to succeed, but he doesn't want it. You know the old saying, you can lead a horse to water but can't make him drink.

HE'S 24 for God's sake.

There are shelters, parks you can sleep in, thrift stores you can buy a blanket for $1. He wouldn't be the first person to hussle for a buck to buy that blanket. It's not pretty, but it's called hitting rock bottom. As long as you give him a soft place to land, he'll never hit that bottom and you'll continue to be frustrated and hurt and he'll continue on his path of luxury.

It comes down to two choices.

#1 - I am willing to be abused by my son, but I won't complain about it anymore.

#2 - I will no longer be willing to be abused by my son and accept ALL consequences that might result from making that choice.

The second is a hard pill to swallow as we know the consequences can be very bad. At some point you need to think about the long term and YOUR life.

Personally, I chose #2 fully knowing that at any day I would get the call that J OD'd or shot someone. I'm at the point where I can live with that. He wasn't ready for help.

Abbey

 

[linda lou]

Letting go takes a very long time. You have to take baby steps every day....like not answering the phone; saying "I am sorry to hear about that (money, trouble, whatever), what are you going to do about it?"

As much as we want to rescue them, I found that the 'rescue' is just temporary and enables my difficult child to assume I will rescue him each and every time there is a problem.

Mine is 23 and I feel my energy has been sucked dry. By allowing him to take, take, take, I am disrespecting myself. By continuing, I will end up with exactly what he has, nothing.

Be strong, be compassionate, but don't compromise what you know is right for your kid to be responsible for his/her own actions.

One day at a time.

 

[standswithcourage]

Thanks Abbey - It is just beyond me why he choses to live that way - I know I keep going back to that but we are allowing him to chose the way he wants to live - not the way he was brought up or in the environment he was brought up - sometimes I feel like it is a slap in the face for our moral values looking at where he is - oh well - I will let him live his life and I will live mine - as long as he is not here living his life at my house it is a lot better than when he was here. Does that make sense?

 

[Nomad]

I tend to agree with- Barbara here.
However, when folks here take the great time to really listen and comment on posts it can be helpful, even if it isn't what a person wants to hear. I do think it takes care in its presentation. No enabling...but no condemnation either (condemnation is not helpful and often backfires). Like anyone else, when a person hears difficult information, but feels it is coming from an experienced source who is kind, they are more likely to act upon what they have heard.

We can only hope that when our difficult children express an interest in doing better that folks out there will wisely walk the fine line between not enabling, but kindly helping them inch forward.

 

[janebrain]

- but we are allowing him to chose the way he wants to live -

Hi Stands,
I may be nitpicking here but I still think your mindset is that you have some control over how he lives. Just the fact that you say you are allowing him--as if you have given him permission to live the way he wants to live--suggests that you are still enmeshed. He is 24 years old, he doesn't need anybody to allow him to live as he wishes, he will do it anyway.

--Jane

 

[standswithcourage]

True but I guess what I meant to say was we are giving him the choice and not saying you cannot live that way - we are saying you cannot live that way in our house but are giving him the choice to live that way somewhere else even if it seems crazy to us. Even if we want to beg and plead to think about what he is doing and look and see how successful this is going to be for him - but hey he might just like being on the bottom - some people say he needs to hit bottom - well he might just like bottom and never come back to the top. It seems that way to me. If I had to live where he is living right now - that would definately be bottom for me.