I'm back and its not a pretty story . . .

[klmno]

I think you need to check your state laws. Here, stealing (theft) is only a felony if 1) it's over a certain amount of money and less than $100 wouldn't be enough, 2) it was robbed from a person's body - as in when difficult child robbed money from my pockets while I was sleeping, or 3) a weapon was used. Maybe there is a different classification if it was checks that were stolen but as much as my son has done, I've never heard that it would make any difference so it might not be a felony.

But my real question is- why does that matter? I understand why it matters to you but honestly, that sounds pretty enabling to me if it's going to make the difference between whether or not you report her.

Would you really trust her and feel comfortable writing this off and letting it go and her continuing to live with you under some pretense that "now" she'll change?

Maybe your daughter is different than my son but I finally figured out that with my difficult child, he was going to get worse until I drew the line in the sand. A real line. Not a warning and not a different approach that really did nothing more than allow things to continue. When I read the circumstances that you aloowed her back to live with you, then read that the minute you are gone from the house what she's doing, then the police/window issue, then the stolen checks....and you are concerned about turning her in because it might be a felony? And if it is and you don't turn her in- then what? You can advocate for them to reduce it to a misdemeanor. The next victim might not be so kind.

I'm sure my reply sounds harsh but it's not because I don't feel your pain. It's because my son eventually was robbing me with a knife and I, at some point, had to wake up and realize where this was going to lead HIM (not my mommy feelings) if I didn't draw a line and stop it.

 

[DammitJanet]

K...forging checks makes it the difference. I thought it different way back in the day too. I almost signed a forgery affidavit against Cory when he was 16 and forged a check of mine for $5 but when I found it was going to be an adult felony I changed my mind. I wasnt willing to do it for 5 bucks at 16.

 

[lovemysons]

Hi Kathy,

If it were me...in my Best state of mind, lol, I would probibly not charge her with a Felony with the understanding that this is the LAST time she is given a pass and only because she has an opportunity to succeed with the new job.
on the other hand, I am with the poster who suggested a homeless shelter for the rest of the month(s). I don't think you all should be out the additional money for her to have a place to stay because she can no longer be trusted in your home.

Whatever you decide...we will be here.
Hugs,
LMS

 

[PonyGirl]

Hello Kathy!

I haven't been here in awhile myself, but I'm on vacation this week and Today is "Pajama Day" So I came here and browsed around, and was very sad to read your recent posts.

I have no advice. I am only sending ((((hugs)))) and prayers for you. And 1 question: How many Last Chances have you given your difficult child?

The above question is NOT intended to be judgey. I honestly am simply asking the question for my own curiousity, and to make you think about it from that angle. Have you given her any other Last Chances??

Peace

 

[DDD]

Kathy, glad to read that husband is working toward a new career choice. I wish him well.

I was wondering if difficult child would accept the condition of attending AA should you all decide to support her for this short period. It seems as though she needs to "give" something to "get" something. Even if she denies an addiction problem she could attend open meetings and just might learn something.

Sending maximum support your way. DDD

 

[Fran]

Hi Kathy, she does seem to have a substance abuse issue which magnifies her underlying personality disorder or mental illness. Not being able to trust her has to be heartbreaking. Her thinking and sense of entitlement are not based on reality and you should be able to enjoy the fruits of your labor without worry that she is destroying the house or stealing things.
She doesn't seem up to the task of independent living. Can she stay with you with very strict rules? Car only for work or with a parent. It will curtail her ability to buy alcohol or party.
You might want to invest in a nanny cam so that you have a record of what's going on. On the other hand it may be too gut wrenching to see her going through your cupboards and drawers to steal from her parents.
I'm sorry she hasn't figured it out.
At some point, you will have to figure out if she will ever be independent or if she is only able to live this pinball machine type of existence. She doesn't seem to be able to set a realistic goal and set steps in motion to attain that goal. She has good intentions but "a dream without a plan and hard work is a fantasy". I don't think she is lazy but she loses site of the prize by getting enveloped with just everyday life, party, drink, etc.
Her thinking is not clear in relationship to family and work.
Hugs.
How is easy child doing?

 

[DammitJanet]

That is a good idea DDD.

I sure hope that she gets it together with this chance. I know we were really sorry we let Cory come back this last time and wont let it happen again unless it is for a severe health reason. I always have to qualify that because I say never but I know I cant say never. There are always unique circumstances where a parent would take a kid back.

Oh ... reading Frans post made me think about things in a different light too. She really may be messing up in an attempt to tell you that she cant make it on her own but she cant tell you that verbally. If she truly is borderline, she will seriously do the push you away strongly just to show herself that you really didnt love her. It will prove to her that she really isnt worthy of a darned thing.

Kathy...if you want my number to talk about this in depth, PM me and we can talk. Maybe between us we can come up with something to actually help her. I know Im not a therapist but I have lived almost 50 years being me and doing a whole lot of not so great things but living things plus almost 6 years of therapy.

 

[Nomad]

Why? Well, she likely has some issues related to abandonment and is missing having a home and family. However, she also likely has great trouble recognizing and certainly holding onto what is needed to be a responsible young adult within a working family. She doesn't understand the give and take part of it all and how to work inter-dependently.
Sadly, I tend to come here off and on and then I forget the details of each story. Also sadly, I think for most of our kids, it is extremely difficult for them to grasp the concept of their need to change and even harder for them to actually make changes.
The only hope often is for them to get therapy (if they are open to it) and for them to actually feel the consequences of their poor decisions.
This is extraordinarily hard because sometimes their poor decisions are very dangerous and create havoc that puts them ten steps backward.
I think we can protect them only to a certain extent by offering them help with issues inolving health care (physical and mental), let them know we love them, let them know that that if they can make positive changes that we might be able to do a little more for them and model for them what healthy behavior looks like!

As a side note: you might want to see if she would be interested in seeing a therapist who has a speciality in addiction or dual diagnosis.

by the way....soooo good to hear that you guys got to go to Hawaii and husband is working toward a new career!!!

 

[Kathy813]

Nomad, private therapy is expensive and difficult child doesn't have insurance. She has aged out of our insurance plan and gets her mental health care and medications through a free county program. They do have group therapy sessions but difficult child has never wanted to attend them.

I also have to admit that I don't have great hopes in therapy anymore. She has spent years in therapy on and off and it never seemed to help.

Fran, I think you hit on what I was trying to say about whether we would react the same it if was a physical disability that would keep difficult child from being independent. At this point, I am not sure that just throwing her out and cutting her off would be a good solution. The two months that she spent here while we were home were great. She wasn't drinking or partying and she was like a different person.

I'm seeing that drinking is more of an issue than I realized. I think your description about it magnifying the underlying disorders was spot on. She told me that she wasn't able to do welll in her college classes because she was drinking (and wasn't living at home at that time). She did well here until we left and she started drinking heavily. husband and I were wondering if doing what you suggest about the strict rules and perhaps requiring her to attend AA meetings would help. I know that she has to want to change but, like another poster said, just hearing other people's stories might be an eye opener for her.

She is still planning to start her job which is a good thing. difficult child of the past would have been threatening to throw that away, too, in a fit of pique.

Thank you, Fran, for saying that we had the right to take our dream vacation. I was actually letting myself feel guilty about going after what happened since she seemed to be doing so well before we left.

To answer your question about easy child, she is doing great! She graduated from college last May with a 3.7 GPA and was offered a job teaching high school math before she even graduated! She will be teaching 11th grade math and be an assistant varsity softball coach. She had played against this school when she was in high school and the coaches remembered her and were really excited about getting a pitching coach. She starts next week. She has already found an apartment and moved out. easy child also has made up an Excel spreadsheet with a budget and plans to save $500 a month. How can she be related to my difficult child?

Janet, thanks for your offer. Maybe you can help me understand how she thinks. I'm still shaking my head about her dragging out trophies from 10 years ago.

Right now, she is supposed to be looking for a place to rent. We'll see if she does anything or not.

~Kathy

 

[DammitJanet]

Kathy..I can understand the dragging them out to be honest. Look how successful easy child is. difficult child is looking back at those trophy's and thinking back on what she has done. I constantly look at baby pics or when asked what I am most proud of its graduating college with a 4.0. Thats like pulling out my trophy's.

Cory does this all the time in regards to Jamie. Its like he is in competition. I think all siblings tend to do this but difficult child's moreso.

 

[sickandtired1]

Reading your story sounds so much like what we have experienced with our 24 yo son. He too stole checks from us and his grandparents over the years. We did not prosecute him and really were never able to make him pay it back. Boy, in hind site was that a big mistake. Now my son is in jail charged with a serious felony (attempted robbery). He may have to spend 5+ years in prison. So his "stealing" escalated beyond our house. Why didn't we show him a lesson? I feel it was one of the biggest mistakes we ever made. With each incident, he too "had another job possibility", so we were so excited at that prospect that we never did what we should have- press charges! Now my son in jail is asking to "be bailed out". The manipulation never stops!

 

[Fran]

Kathy, congratulations for easy child's success. I know you are proud and relieved to see that your home put out good, independent, tax paying, law abiding adult into the world. Now if we can get our difficult child's to be law abiding, tax paying independent, good adults then we can stop holding our breath.
My difficult child is doing ok and is living on his own but he is not able to be 100% independent. This doesn't refer to financially. I don't see that happening anytime soon but we are working on it. He still needs some input/cueing and planning from an outside source. I don't know if it will happen.

I like the idea of insisting on AA meetings as a condition of living with you. It's a start for her to assume some control over where she ends up in the future. She has a lot of gifts and strengths that when she uses them allow her to be successful. Something is sabotaging her. Whether it is Borderline (BPD) or fear of success or inability to use her executive function ability to plan her own day, week, life is undecided but she has the "right stuff" to live a full and successful life.

 

[Nomad]

I firmly believe that until our adult children actually feel/see the pain that their choices are making them, they are highly unlikely to make positive changes.

I also think that role modeling positive behavior can be helpful.
I have seen therapy help, but you are absolutely right, it is significantly better when the client WANTS the help.

For a variety of reasons, good role modeling being one of them, and simply that you needed and deserved a vacation, it was wonderful and fabulous that you went on that vacation. Contrary to feeling guilty, it was the best and healthiest move you could of made all around!

I like what you said about her not blowing off this job opportunity and trying to find a place to rent. However, if getting an apartment doesn't work out trying a final one last shot attempt with strict rules and perhaps attendance at AA (or therapy at a low cost agency) makes some sense. However, in my humble opinion it really needs to be the very last attempt, with strict rules and you and husband need to have a plan in place if it doesn't work out. If this happens, you might need support and might want to consider going to a few meetings of FA (Families Anonymous).

When our adult children are very sick, it seems humane (and probably best) to offer them medical and mental health care, hoping that this will keep them minimally safe and in combination with their own very necessary better choices and personal efforts, will make the difference toward positive change.

However, it is vitally important, that we pull back...let them feel the consequences of their inappropriate actions and at the same time...move forward personally. This is good for them on two levels...they learn logical consequences and you model that you are able to set limits, suffer disssappointments and move forward regardless of these things. If you can, they too can make progress in these areas as well.

I do believe detachment is a learning and growth experience for both our difficult children and us as well.

p.s.
Congrats to your easy child! I find it interesting that a few of us have one difficult child and the sibling went on to be a really good teacher! Our easy child received high honors when got a teaching degree not too long ago and additionally received a teaching award last year.

 

[Star*]

Well........Good grief I'm not wishy at all...I'm about as hard as they come and for all intents and purposes? I'm right there with Janet and Nancy - and Mrsammler. Do I think you SHOULD charge her? At 26? After all you've done? Yes.

If it were anyone else in your world EXCEPT your daughter, at age WHAT?? TWENTY SIX -almost thirty? FORGING CHECKS of her parents because she KNEW you would NOT press charges? I mean - seriously Kathy WHAT was the BIG deal that she couldn't pick up the phone and call you in HI and say "Mom, I'm really sorry, but I know you trusted me to stay here, and I've snooped through and rifled through ALL of your drawers, and broken your trust searching for XYZ which in my opinion is RIDICULOUS ----and THAT alone would have set my hair on fire...but what and why couldn't she just be a woman and say "I need a loan can you help?" Nope - she took a check book and pealed herself out a few checks, and then when she got caught? "OH I'm going to kill myself." OMG I would have been so furious I would have been shoving pills IN her mouth and probably gone to jail instead of her FOR abuse." PUll THAT **** on me...(in a whiney voice ---I'm suicidal watch me I want to die...whaaaa) ---Fine I'll help you then----open your pie hole---I've got some junk here that should turn your hair green for at least ten years and make your nose big like Dumbos." UGH. Lets PLAY!

HOWEVER.......ONCE I calm down? It occurs to me that there is a part of me.....that thinks....AHHHHH I've already turned my kid in for felony thinking it would make a huge change in his life. It would allow law enforcement to step in and show him how serious everyone involved was. What it did was make a complete freaking mess of his life, mylife, our life. And all it did in the end? Was ruin everything. He quit school, he never got his GED because he was so busy trying to work part time jobs to pay for all his fines, probation, and fees for court that he NEVER had time for school. OR GED. He couldn't get a decent job because of the felony, and eventually said SCREW IT - I'm a felon - I can't even get a job at Arbys, Walmart -or Burger King - and now is living by his wits.

So while the Tough Love - aspect of "AVAST YE _ SEND HER TO JAIL AND TEACH HER A LESSON" sounds so tough and lessony? You want opinions? I'm giving you mine. - put your checks in the safe with the rest of the junk you don't want her to get ahold of. Put better locks on the doors and change them ALL.....glass block on the basement windows - should cost around $500. WELL WORTH IT.....with vent windows for ventilation.....or do it yourself for around $400. Make a pact with your husband RIGHT NOW - that she is ABSOLUTELY ON HER LAST ---WE TOLD YOU SO....and let her go get the job as a hair dresser to make it on her own. THen TOUGH LOVE IT from here.

IF she's 26.....and hasn't learned ANYTHING from you yet???? She's NOT going to learn it from you now. Sorry all -----I just don't think ONE tough love lesson this late is going to change the pot/kettle situation or make a life altering hit the bottom of the ditch for her.

She in my humble opinion is going to continue to do what she has been doing - all along for 26 years ----BUT at least if you do NOT send her to jail? YOU are NOT the reason she "I COULDN"T MAKE IT BECAUSE YOU MADE ME A FELON" and add one more stir to your pot of misery. I would however find myself a therapist Kathy and work with them to DETACH DETACH DETACH from her RIDICULOUS BS....and tell myself that THIS IS ABSOLUTELY THE FINAL AND LAST STRAW FOREVER AMEN.....and don't let yourself be knived by her stories anymore. NO MATTER WHAT. THIS HAS GOT TO BE THE FINAL BLOW for YOU.....not necessarily HER......BUT YOU.

I don't think putting her up in a hotel and allowing her a pass on the check **** is so good....no maam. I think it stinks to high hog heaven....because I am NOT sure-------that those two checks aren't still out there. SO I would PAY to have a STOP PAYMENT PUT on both of the missing numbers......I would ALSO check ALL OF MY BOOKS AND CHECK FOR EACH AND EVERY SEQUENTIAL NUMBER ONE BY ONE>>> THIS IS A TACTIC USED BY MY X..........and they keep the checks.........LONG into the wee months ......MAYBE the BEST THING is to cancel THAT checking account all together.....and start a new one that your daughter has ABSOLUTELY no access to. DO NOT TELL HER THAT EITHER. PAIN IN THE DONKEY ------but the more pain YOU have to go through, and the more trouble YOU are put through? GUESS WHO IS LESS LIKELY TO ALLOW DAUGHTER TO SPIT ON YOU ONE MORE TIME IN THE FUTURE>.....

OH and by the way - SHE COULD HAVE SOLD THOSE CHECKS.......for CASH TO SOMEONE ELSE WHO WILL USE THEM IN THE FUTURE........and may have paid their bills with the information.......ANOTHER TACTIC by X.

yeah.........change the account. NOW.

Let her have that job................

THen allow her to go off and mess up the rest of her life without a black mark from you ------OR any more help FROM you.....and I'd let her know THIS was really "IT". YOU ARE DONE.

Just the way I feel.......because if I realy thought that this would smack her down....and teach her something? I'd be like - SURE DO IT......but It won't. And it's just going to make YOU feel bad, (I know you). I can't see anything accomplished here - the message would be sent - sure. But she wouldn't get it. I just hope if you DON'T prosecute - YOU get MY message - NO MORE HELP.

 

[DammitJanet]

See..thats the difference, if I hadnt prosecuted Cory, he wouldnt have learned any lesson. I do think he learned something. Nothing else we did ever did a lick of good. Its a crying shame it took me prosecuting him to turn him around though.

 

[troubled]

See..thats the difference, if I hadnt prosecuted Cory, he wouldnt have learned any lesson. I do think he learned something. Nothing else we did ever did a lick of good. Its a crying shame it took me prosecuting him to turn him around though.

I was going to prosecute my difficult child at age 10! That was exactly what the therapist told me I should do about difficult child stealing. She began stealing from relatives and would not stop. I took her down to the police station and she sat there boldly stone faced while an officer yelled at her. I thought that was enough so I dropped charges. So later on, she ends up in jail for guess what? Stealing from someone at a homeless shelter. She claimed innocent but no one believed her because of her past habits of stealing and lying. I know for a fact she still is determined to get what she wants without working for it so I would not be surprised if she stole again - and ended up in jail again. I TOLD her when she was 10 that she would end up in jail if she continued to steal but did it do any good? Nope. I lived behind locked doors for the last 10 years until I evicted her. She hasn't changed and maybe never will. I did her no favors by letting her off easy when she was 10. She blames her problems on me and everyone else anyway but we all know why she doesn't have the money to buy what she wants. She doesn't want to work and earn things honestly.