is my situation not as serious as most?

[CrazyinVA]

It's so hard for a woman to make it on her own in this cold world and all by themselves. It's impossible.

This is simply not true. I was the single mom of two difficult children from the time they were 3 and 7. I didn't live with my parents, or anyone else. I worked full time. It's definitely hard, painful and lonely, but it's definitely not impossible. My Oldest has been making it on her own since I kicked her out at 19 (thankfully she had no kids). difficult children tend to be extremely resourceful - they find a way.

Staz, you've gotten some great advice from some wise women. Hang in there, and trust your gut.

 

[AnnieO]

My daughter is a bit younger than yours, but her choices have led her out of my home and she is now in prison. I love her dearly... But I was finally able to detach somewhat when she was jailed last summer. I couldn't do it when she ran off to another state with her boyfriend. I did manage not to give her any money... But it was so hard to stop looking at her facebook, stop searching Google for her name...

Now things are a bit different. I've visited her in prison, along with husband and her younger siblings. But then, I know she is safe, sober, fed and clothed and housed. I can't say what will happen when she is released. As long as she has bio-gma to enable her, nothing good. And, sadly, bio-gma will, until she is gone. I can't wish for that - I did not wish for bio-mom to die, either - but I am not stupid.

Hugs, and keep posting...

You MUST, whatever else happens, take care of yourself first...

 

[helpangel]

lots of wisdom in this thread, about the only thing i can think of to add is everyone here is an individual; doubt any of us share the exact same situation or family dynamics.

i was a flaming difficult child as a teenager my parents changed the locks on me when i was 17yo then those same parents allowed me to move back in when i was pregnant with my son and stay until got my own place when he was 18mo old.

but it wasn't just me - my brother and sister both moved back, yep all 3 adult kids back home within 6 months of each other, every other weekend 6 grandkids running around to add to that.

but that's how MY family works; bear with me i can imagine many of you shaking your heads and thinking my parents were totally nuts for allowing it.

but if you could have seen last monday... my brother did the yardwork while i took them to the grocery store, my sister came over helped put away groceries and cleaned out the kitty box, she's also the one who cooked the burgers we all had for lunch.

my family is kind of like... can't remember how the marine saying goes... something like when you can't walk you get someone to carry you. thats how my family works you change their diapers when they are babies so hopefully the babies as adults will change yours when you can't make it to the potty.

point being do what works for you, what feels rights and what ever that is we are here for you. sending hugs and good thoughts your way

nancy

ps it's no wonder as soon as my sister, the last to move out got her own place they sold that big house and moved into a condo LOL

 

[BusynMember]

Few here have cut off ties. Nobody meant that. We meant to let her grow up. Many of us are in 50's and 60s and I assume you are not really young either if you daughter is already 33. That makes us value the rest of our lives. The fact is, you don't know what you daughter is like, what she did for seven years or if she got into trouble or even in jail. Nobody would have called you. She is way over the adult age limit where anyone would notify you. The only one who would have wanted to do that is her. What do you think she was doing?

But cutting somebody off as in not talking to them at all is not the same as no longer being a mommy, but a mother. A mother to an adult child is not longer their caregiver. She did without you for a long time. She is holding back telling you what she did while she was gone, not that she SHOULD share with you. As an adult, she CAN share, but doesn't have to. And it is unlikely she went seven years obeying the law while not working and being homeless. And same goes for her boyfriend. He may have been the one who urged her on, but she wanted to do what he said then. And she may have been the one urging him on.

I still talk to my difficult child. I just do not talk to him when he is being disrespectful and he doesn't get money from me. And, because he definitely will not follow our house rules if he did live at home, he can't live here anymore. I am more fortunate than some as he is very bright and likes to look good to other people so he has a fruitful job and his own house, but even if he didn't, he couldn't come back here. He is 36 and I am no longer his mommy. Forcing him into the world, and we DID make him leave when he became aggressive to me, has made him make his own way in the world and he is independent. I still support him, over the phone, when he needs it and I'm up to it and it's not about something ridiculous or illegal, but he knows he has to get up each morning, go to work, pay his mortgage...I think he is one who could have been a perennial child, but in a way he is...and in many important ways he can take care of his own needs.

It is totally up to you if you want your daughter to grow up or stagnate. Some do choose to have their 60 year old difficult children living with them when they are 80 and still take care of them. This particular format is filled with moms who want our children to succed and move toward independence and most of us have tried it all.

You underestimate your daughter as she HAS lived on her own for seven years. That's a long time. It is good that she has decided to take baby steps to maybe improve herself, but she is the one who has to motivate herself to get a job, cook for herself, wash her own clothes, etc.

Please don't think we are being hard on you. It takes a long time to get to where many of us are at. Many are also still making our way. Trust me, I did not think my daughter was using any drugs stronger than pot (and she was living with me). Turns out she was using mostly meth and other forms of speed. Our kids are good pretenders when they have to be.

Wishing you peace and serenity . It DOES get better as we do. If you have done much for your daughter in the past, you know what works and what doesn't. I once heard that the definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over again and expect a different result. Fresh ideas can produce totally different results.

In the end, most of us are working hard on OUR recovery

 

[Kathy813]

It's so hard for a woman to make it on her own in this cold world and all by themselves. It's impossible.

Layne, I couldn't disagree with you more. Are you saying that there is some biological reason that makes it impossible for a woman to take care of herself?

I know lots of women that are single and take care of themselves just fine. My easy child is 26-years-old and she is a school teacher and has her own apartment and does great.

What we want for our female difficult children is to reach that point of functional independence. The last thing I want is to be 80-years-old and still taking care of a 50-year-old daughter.

~Kathy

 

[layne]

Kathy, some are. I'm sure your daughters had a lot of help from you and they were smart enough to take advantage of all the blessings they had and even if they didn't have much help from you, not a lot of women are living on their own in this world I'm sorry, but facts are facts. But it's really hard for a woman, especially with mental problems, to make it alone in this world, I don't care what anyone says. If OP's daughter does not give her a hard time, such as abuse, thievery and all that other junk, I believe a mother should allow daughter to move back in instead of staying on streets. It seems the only problem mother has is just not happy with the way her life turned out and that's not a reason to detach from your child. She said so herself that her daughter's problems are not as severe as most others in here.

 

[BusynMember]

Layne, if the daughter was gone seven years she has caused a loto f problems, probably from drugs to legal. If she refuses to work, who pays for her food, clothes, cell phone, internet...her parents? Layne you are 33. Most of us are near retirement age. I may have felt different when I was as young as you are. As it is my son who is a problem is older than you are. My golden years are here and frankly I don't want to ruin them by babying an adult who can do it himself. I think you may feel differently if you were older. Do you depend on your mom for everything? Does she pay your bills? Of course not. You are 33 and you take care of yourself, as do most 33 year olds, unless they are the few that are resistant to growing up and want us to take care of them forever. You are not thinking about retirement, but most of us have to. It is expected that a 33 year old adult will work and pay for her own bills. WE CAN NOT AFFORD TO SUPPORT THEM FOREVER. If she doesn't work, who supports her? WHy, Dad and Mom, who are probably digging into their retirement fund and it isn't helping this daughter one bit.

This woman is NOT a single mother, by the way, and only has to take care of herself. She is a drifter who disappeared for seven years, which has more of a story than you realize and maybe than Mom wants to ponder. As for single parenthood, you have made it. So what if it was hard? I left home at eighteen and it was hard. When I hit my mid-40's I realized how strong that early hardship made me

This child is showing disrespect just by refusing to work and help pay the rent, do the chores, get a job and listening to her mother's house rules. You grew up. This one is not grown up. BUT...she did spend seven years away from Mom so she is perfectly cable of living without her mother.

I respect your opinion. I also think there is a good chance you will look back one day and feel as we do. It is different when you are 33 and can waste a lot of years and still be young when (or if) it ends. Most of us do not have that much time and paid our dues. Why should we support and care for our adult children when they are perfectly capable of doing it themselves? Why would we house a child who REFUSES to work? What is the good in that both for us or our adult child?

I'm not asking you to answer HERE. Just think on your own maybe. And remember how much older most of us are then you. I am 60. I could be your mom. Your perspective changes as you age. And, although I refused to believe this when I was young, with age comes a lot of life experiences, thus wisdom.

Hugs for the hardship you experienced raising a child when you were still a child, but YOU DID IT! YOU ARE AWESOME! Maybe you even grew stronger because of it!

 

[CrazyinVA]

not a lot of women are living on their own in this world I'm sorry, but facts are facts.

There are several million single women in the U.S. that might disagree with you on that one ;-)

As parents of difficult children, we are constantly treading that fine line between enabling and helping - it's tough, definitely. But our job as parents is ultimately to teach them to be independent, regardless of mental illness or situation. We sometimes have to make tough choices to make that happen - and we all have to do it in our own way and in our own time. No one said it was easy.. but I think to teach them that they'll always need help, is doing them a disservice. I prefer to encourage them - let them know it's not impossible, and that I believe they CAN do it.

 

[Crying Uncle]

It seems the only problem mother has is just not happy with the way her life turned out and that's not a reason to detach from your child.

Wow, that is a disheartening, painful response. Layne, mothers love their difficult children and do not want them to come to harm. It's not about selfishly preserving Moms lifestyle or meeting Moms expectations. Its about parents worrying about their offspring being safe and taken care of when they are gone. But moving back home is hardly the answer in every situation. Cohabitation seems to me to lead to more arguing, fighting, emotional wreckage and bitter grudges in so many cases I've read here. I wish things were that simple. I am sorry you "don't care what anyone says" when listening to the voices of experience, decades of it. I hope you will reconsider your viewpoint, there is a lot of wisdom on these boards if you are open to the experiences of others.

 

[Childofmine]

Hi Layne, the world can be a big, hard and cruel place, and perhaps that is the perspective you are speaking from. I think we might all see that viewpoint---I certainly do. I am very grateful that I had a mother and father who provided my college education and this is something they talked about as an aspiration of theirs, for me, since I was a little girl. I realize all people don't have that kind of support.

I was married for 29 years and my husband and I both have had successful careers. I have now been divorced for six years, and I was afraid at first to be on my own. I have my own business and for the first time, I was out in the big world and it was up to me to kill it, drag it home and do something with it, in order to make a living. Or I could get a job. That is something I considered. I was also still helping easy child and difficult child get through college.

It was scary. I knew I was a very strong and capable person, and I called on that knowledge, and day by day, I made it happen. I felt alone and scared sometimes but I just kept moving forward. I am still making it happen. I have not gotten a job---I still own my own business and pay the bills and save money via that business. I am very thankful, again, and I work hard. I believe that women have a great role to play in the world and we only hamper ourselves by our own fears. We can do it---we are doing it.

Having said all of that, I believe it is our responsibility to make our own way in this world---not to rely on a husband or parents or anybody else in being a contributing citizen. We need to continually be preparing ourselves to do this, and that never stops. I always look at my friends' daughters and even my own niece, and SO's college-age daughter---and I so want them to prepare themselves to be self-supporting. My niece just graduated from college, and will be a teacher. She is likely to marry her long-time boyfriend, and I hope that marriage lasts her lifetime. We all know the odds of that happening, and I wish she would go ahead now and get her master's in education so she has that credential in hand, for the future. SO's daughter plans on getting married, not working, being a wife and mom and that being her life. She is in college now and plans to go to law school, and I am glad because often, that dream of hers, that goal, just does not work. Women need to prepare so they have lots of options. I have gently talked with my niece about that---one time. That decision is up to her and her alone. I can't know her future and I don't presume to.

I have one son who has fully prepared himself for life. He has a master's in Math, and he is a hard worker, and he and his fiancee have made and are making good mature decisions. He is completely self supporting as a high school Math teacher and has been for several years. He is a joy to be around.

My difficult child has not done the same. He continues to ask me for the most basic of sustenance when he is not in jail. I see him doing nothing to move to a position of independence. At age 25, it is way way past time for him to show progress.

I do him no favors by making the world possible for him to survive in, without him taking that responsibility own for himself. By continuing to pave the way and soften the falls, I further cripple him, demean him and show him that I don't believe he can do it.

And he has every capability to make it---he is smarter than most in many ways, has a great sense of humor, and a kind heart. If he chose a healthy life, he would again have support and actual assistance to dig out of the deep hole he is now put himself in, through his drug addiction.

But we have been there and done that, Layne. Doing it for him, waiting for him to "get it", doesn't work. Nothing changes.

Both of my sons grew up in the same house with the same opportunities.

This may be hard to see and understand at your stage of life, but believe me, it is real and it is true. I hope you never have to walk the road many of us have walked. If you do, you will learn like we have. Hugs to you today.

 

[SuZir]

As parents of difficult children, we are constantly treading that fine line between enabling and helping - it's tough, definitely. But our job as parents is ultimately to teach them to be independent, regardless of mental illness or situation. We sometimes have to make tough choices to make that happen - and we all have to do it in our own way and in our own time. No one said it was easy.. but I think to teach them that they'll always need help, is doing them a disservice. I prefer to encourage them - let them know it's not impossible, and that I believe they CAN do it.

The problem for many people who are in danger to become marginalized is, that those steps they need to take just tend to seem too daunting, too huge, something they don't believe they can do.

In my area there are some rather successful programs that work with that. First they look for their customers (because people in their potential clientèle group are not likely to look for these resources themselves) and find them either by other people (usually parents) reporting they are worried about this person or actually going to places where their potential customers hang out (both in real life and in web) and looking them from there, then they start to sort out the situations of these people and make plans with them, breaking every step to much smaller and easier pieces, helping them to apply all kinds of government assistance. Actually going with them to agencies, giving them rides, reminding them about their appts, helping them to write applications etc. Hand holding (and actually going far enough to having a visit or looking them from their hanging places, if they don't return calls) them through whole process until they are back to school or in some type of (often first sheltered) work. These programs have surprisingly high success rates with very tough clientèle. And they save a ton of tax money in long run for us. Many of their clientèle even become tax payers and even those who may live with assistance rest of their lives are much less likely to inconvenience our police forces, courts and prison system (about nothing is more expensive than putting someone in prison.)

I know this type of programs are against cultural values in US, but what I wanted to point out, is that this kind of hand holding, helping etc. can be helpful. And especially the part there you plan and divide it to small, easier pieces and to do lists is something, that may be possible way fo the parents to help our difficult children. Of course that is not possible with every difficult child and many adult difficult child's probably are not so open for this kind of guidance coming from the parent, but depending the relationship you have with your difficult child, it may be possible and can be very helpful.

 

[CrazyinVA]

I think those programs sounds great -- we have similar things here in the US but they are privately funded and run (you're right, unfortunately having them publicly funded doesn't fly here). I used to wish I could get Youngest into a local one for single mothers, but she and the grandkids would have had to be completely homeless to take advantage of them. I wasn't willing to drop my grandkids off at a shelter.

I still of think of those kinds of programs as being designed to help people become independent. In other words, they're mostly living on their own, using appropriate resources for help. That's a far cry from sitting at home refusing to work and asking mom and dad to take care of their every need. That's a big difference, in my opinion.

We each have to figure out what's best for our own children. The "tough love" route isn't for everyone.

 

[SuZir]

I still of think of those kinds of programs as being designed to help people become independent. In other words, they're mostly living on their own, using appropriate resources for help. That's a far cry from sitting at home refusing to work and asking mom and dad to take care of their every need. That's a big difference, in my opinion.

Yes, the goal is as much independence as possible, but there are many methods to try to reach that goal. For some, if a difficult child really is resourceful and capable, best way to reach that can be starting fire under their bottoms, kicking them out from home, refusing any financial assistance etc. But with more deeply troubled person that often doesn't help them get motivated to take the necessary steps to reach that goal of independence. That is when it comes to everyone knowing their loved one best and having the best hunch, what kind of actions from their part could be most helpful for their loved one (and not too taxing for them and rest of the family.) And then deciding how much, how and with which things you are going to help or not help.

But I do disagree with any blanket statement that you shouldn't help/give any financial assistance/let move in with you your adult, troubled child or other loved one. While for some it is true, it is not true for all and in every case.

 

[Crying Uncle]

SuZir, those sound like very wonderful people doing that work. It often takes someone from outside the family to break through to someone. Too much baggage when the family starts advising you? Unfortunately true that the political climate and popular opinion in the US is very unkind and unforgiving. As a country it often seems we'd rather punish than assist.
But as individuals, when it hits our family, seems like people DO care. DO want to help, do want to rescue those who want to do better. Not sure how it disconnects to Hate The Disadvantaged in our popular culture.

 

[SuZir]

It often takes someone from outside the family to break through to someone. Too much baggage when the family starts advising you?

That is unfortunately very true. Even when person is not a difficult child there are often too much baggage between parents and children or other loved ones. Outsider works much better. And when we are talking about life long or long term difficult children - well, I doubt there is a family that doesn't have too much baggage between them to it make things more difficult.

My kid isn't actually in danger to be marginalized right now (he has some peculiar talents that keep his nose above water), but he has lots of social difficulties. Me, or his dad, or his beloved granddad or any of his godparents could have given him some excellent advices about what he should do to come better along with other people. As you can probably guess, he certainly hasn't been ready to listen us. We are extremely lucky that his former team hired a sport psychiatric to help him and that guy has been heaven-sent. We are actually paying for him nowadays to work with difficult child and he has almost miraculous way to get difficult child to listen, getting into the bottom of difficult child's issues and helping him take those small steps to better his social skills. Many of the advices I could have given, but difficult child would have never listened me. he certainly does listen to his sport psychiatric.

 

[layne]

There are several million single women in the U.S. that might disagree with you on that one ;-)

As parents of difficult children, we are constantly treading that fine line between enabling and helping - it's tough, definitely. But our job as parents is ultimately to teach them to be independent, regardless of mental illness or situation. We sometimes have to make tough choices to make that happen - and we all have to do it in our own way and in our own time. No one said it was easy.. but I think to teach them that they'll always need help, is doing them a disservice. I prefer to encourage them - let them know it's not impossible, and that I believe they CAN do it.

You don't have to be snarky. However, if there are several million single women in the U.S. living alone, (you didn't say living alone, I assume that's what you meant where did you find that statistic? Do you have numbers? If so, let's say several million is about 6 or 7 million. There are 370 million people in the U.S alone. If you divide that by half man and half woman, what is that, 160 million women in this country? So if 6 or 7 million women are living out on their own without ANY help from NOBODY, no government assistance, no significant other, no child support, no family help, NO NOTHING, then that is not a lot compared to how many women are in this country and you just proved me right. It's a lot less common for a women to be successful and on her own completely and truly. Obviously, I KNOW they are out there but like I said..... So there is your winky face for you.

 

[layne]

CrazyinVa, why couldn't you just have let MWM have the last word to me. I was going to let it go after what MWM said. Why did you have to take it upon yourself to further comment and drag it on? I wasn't rude to anyone or being snarky. Maybe you like drama, I don't know. And you have your opinion and I have mine, and no one will ever change my opinion. I am allowed to give advice to OP's when they ask. Am I suppose to lie to appease everyone? Why do others choose to argue with what you say on the thread? I am commenting to OP, not to everyone else.

 

[Crying Uncle]

Layne, your comments are welcome here, but I would have to suggest that you need to grow a thicker skin for those whose experience and viewpoint differs from yours.

Please lets not redirect this post into a debate over whether or not it is impossible for a single woman to survive -- start another thread with that topic, but don't divert this one, please.

thanks!

 

[Kathy813]

Layne, I am not a moderator on this forum but I can tell you that your response was unacceptable. Crazy in VA is not the one starting the drama on this thread. She stated her opinion and you attacked her for it. That is against the rules of the CD forum. Please refrain from calling other people's replies snarky or saying that they are trying to create drama. No one has said that you can't reply to the OP's posts.

We welcome your opinion but you have to accept yours is not the only right way to think. I don't understand your constant emphasis on it being only women that can't take care of themselves. I don't like sexism in any form.

Suzir, I don't believe anyone here has a blanket belief that we should never help our difficult children. If one of our difficult children was so mentally or physically ill that they could not take care of themselves, I believe that any parent on this board would step in and help that difficult child.

What we are talking about is difficult children that can be independent but find it easier to live off others or whose addictions are hurting the loved ones in their lives. Even then, most of us have only come to the point of breaking off contact after we have tried everything in our power to help them.

~Kathy

 

[SuZir]

Suzir, I don't believe anyone here has a blanket belief that we should never help our difficult children. If one of our difficult children was so mentally or physically ill that they could not take care of themselves, I believe that any parent on this board would step in and help that difficult child.
What we are talking about is difficult children that can be independent but find it easier to live off others or whose addictions are hurting the loved ones in their lives. Even then, most of us have only come to the point of breaking off contact after we have tried everything in our power to help them.

The thing is, that when we give advice that makes person who starts the thread feel they are wrong if they do things differently than we may have done ourselves, or have to defend themselves, or that we know better how one should relate to their adult child, we are making assumptions about their kid being this or that. And we usually don't have the information for that. For example we certainly don't know if the daughter of Stazerd is truly perfectly capable of making it on her own and just feels it is easier to live off others. We don't have that information. She has a much better understanding about her daughter than we and she seems to think, it is possible she isn't really that capable right now or could benefit from her more direct help. I of course don't know if it is so, but neither do I know she would be just a lazy mooch who will do better when she has no support and just has to get her act together.

Unfortunate truth is, that most of marginalized people have complex health issues with mental health, addiction or physical illnesses or all of them. They are not an easy group to help. And many reject any help especially from the family, but it is not a solid assumption to assume that any person in verge of being marginalized, or being marginalized, is so because they are lazy and try to get off easy. In fact laziness like that is not very common. I live in country where basically everyone is guaranteed rent money and about 800 dollars to other consumption whatever. Even if only reason for not working is, that you don't want to. You still get that, it is your legal right. Believe it or not, there are no more people collecting those benefits than in many other countries that are much stricter. People actually normally want to work, want to do things, want to feel themselves worthy. If they for some reason don't achieve it, problem is usually something else than just being lazy.