it was exactly as i suspected....

[Shari]

Ironically, Mrsammler, my first difficult child IS a Marine now. And a damn good one. He received some very high accolades in recent past. Unfortunately, tho, the Marines won't take kids like they used to. If they have a record now? They can't get in. And even they've had to relax their standards some. difficult child 1 wouldn't have made it thru boot 20 years ago. He fell out during the crucible. They allowed him to pick up with another unit. 20 years ago, that would have been it.

BUT - it has been a Godsend for him. and he knows he needs the structure to succeed.

And I also think you're right in that the immediate correction can turn a difficult child around. There's no waiting a day for punishment; heck, there's no waiting an hour. You are corrected NOW - regardless of when NOW is. And with my 2 difficult child's, at least, that is a huge thing for them. That and never letting them take an inch. And those are two things drill sargeants are really good at.

And sadly, some of us parents are good at it, too, and we STILL have difficult child's. I've had talks with difficult child 1 about raising him (with hopes of helping his brother) and he to this day says he doesn't know what I could have done differently to have helped him, short of moving to a remote wilderness where he had no access to anything else. And then he'd have probably run.

 

[klmno]

Very true about the military but it isn't just the way they handle punishment that gets people in shape- in my humble opinion, it's the way people in boot camp learn to look within for solutions and then learn to believe in themselves. I really think that has more to do with it than anything. They really get the point thru all of it that they are responsible for themselves- the good and the bad.

 

[Shari]

Agreed, K. Thus the isolation from the outside world during that period....

 

[mrsammler]

I did a life-changing hitch in the army long ago and I can tell you with certainty that yes, your change is driven by more than just the certainty of punishment and that you just can't get away with anything any more, but the absolute certainty that you have no choice whatsoever but to comply and go by the rules and the demands upon you, at risk of very stern and unpleasant consequences if you don't (and no escape hatch--if you just give up and/or defy them, they don't let you go home: they send you back to day 1 in another basic training platoon, which is absolutely unthinkable), is what principally drives the inner changes within you. You learn that you can do very difficult things that you had no idea you could do, and that breeds real pride in yourself, and that you can rise to seemingly insurmountable challenges, and that you can handle degrees of discomfort and hardship that you previously regarded as impossible. And I repeat that all of this was centrally driven by the system of stern demands and inescapable, unwavering consequences that were forced to contend with. In a word, discipline. They present an incredibly tough challenge to you, show you how to accomplish it, and refuse to tolerate lack of effort or quitting or laziness or (especially) defiance or resistance. This puts you into a situation where you have no choice but to try as hard as you can--harder than you've ever tried before--and thus succeed--which breeds huge feelings of self-worth, merited pride in accomplishment, strength, and newfound capability to do amazing things. It changes many lives forever.

Again, I'm not saying that this is the only way to fix a difficult child--not by a long shot. I just wanted to clarify how and why it works so well.

 

[DammitJanet]

Semper FI!

Tony and I have really thought long and hard that all of the young people now should enter some sort of government work program similar to the armed forces. Now for some it would be the military but others it would be like Americorps. Everyone but the severely disabled could do something even if its only peeling potatoes or cooking or cleaning or filing. It doesnt have to be actually going to war. Just a two year stint. But after doing that, the government would pay for a persons 4 year education. Now if someone gets themselves kicked out of their 2 year stint...the education is lost.

I think that would be an awesome idea. It would give the government a labor pool and give people access to education. Just our ideas.

 

[toughlovin]

One of the things that is truly frustrataing now about the military is that if you are truly a difficult child you probably can't get in. My son has wanted to join the military for a long time, like since he was 13!! Although I was not crazy about him going to war I did think it might be just what he needed. My brother who was in the army in Vietnam thought it might be the best thing for him..... Alas his gfgness totally got in his way. He now has a felony on his record, and even though it would be good for him, and he probably would do well in that environment they won't take him.... and by the time he can get his record sealed it will be too late, so he has cut himself off from that option. A part of me is relieved because I worried about how the trauma experiences of war might affect him, but another part of me is sad for him because I think it was a good option for him.

So yes the military is a good option but they have gotten much much stricter about taking people and so m any of our difficult children are out of luck in that regard.

 

[klmno]

The National Guard has a program like that, I think, and are a little easier to get into but still they do have some requirements to get in.

 

[Shari]

Ditto Janet! And mrsammler.
The unfortunate thing with the military approach is-if you replicate that in your home (lockdown, etc) YoU'll
Be the one in trouble. And ..schools have no real
consequences...not real ones anyway. Suspension? Ha!

 

[susiestar]

I am witness to the fact that the military approach does NOT produce long term changes in many of the people who serve for one stint. they do NOT all change because this. My gfgbro went to the army when my parents finally told him he had to leave. The situation with him was unique. He was in enough trouble in elementary school that in sixth grade a teacher told my parents that he would either be dead, in juvie or they could try sending him to a very strict catholic school just across the river in KY (we lived in cincy). He took the entrance exam and passed with top grades so he was accepted. the school believed that seventh and eight grade was a waste of time and just repeated lessons from past years. SO they skipped them. he went into high school after sixth grade. Right away he started to tank, so my father made up a form where each teacher had to sign each day that he was in class, had his homework turned in and completed, had the next day's homework writtend own, had participated in class and behaved appropriately. he even had to have lunch signed - that he had behaved. Each negative comment was given a swat. By the end of the semester he had top grades. He studied hard there but also got into things my aprents were unaware of. he refused to eat with the family at home with-o 24 hrs notice and would NOT go out to eat with us with-o a week's notice. he used schoolwork as an excuse. Reality was that he got the winos who hung around the bus stop (took city buses home from school, carpooled there) to buy booze and porno mags for him. the last year, his jr year, our parents discovered that he had filled the next door kid's playhouse (mostly unused until the boys in the neighborhood found this stash) with porn mags and beer cans. he drank it warm - got addicted to alcohol starting at age 12 from a different neighbor who kept a beer fridge in his basement and let his sons and friends hang out and drink there - unknown to the other parents. He didn't have "some" or a "few" porn mags. He had this six by eight foot playhouse lined around the edge with stacks of mags that were over a foot and a half high. (Aspie obsession, anyone?). THAT is what he did wehn we were not home!

We then moved when he would be going into his senior year. He went to the reg high school in our new town because it was the only choice. Mostly he did not attend. then he went to college and the first year or two did well. At 18 he moved into the upper class dorm because he was a junior. he got the lowest possible grades because all he did was drink and gamble. I don't think I have ever even heard of anyone getting grades that low - basically you have to not even put your NAME on blank tests and assignments to get grades that low in the classes he was taking. I am NOT joking about this.So my folks stopped paying tuition and he moved back home.

He worked low paying jobs and abused me and our home and fought with my parents. Finally enough was enough and they gave him a week to leave - to go live on what he was able to earn. So he went into the Army. It was a total shock as he had always hated the military. He did clean up his act while there. After training (boot camp and the enxt level of training) he was a mechanic and was sent to germany (a couple years before desert storm). there he managed to never hold on to a promotion because he always knew best. Would rearrange things when he was bored or didn't want to do what was assigned. WHile the first time he got a commendation for it because it was more efficient and effective, after that he got bumped down because he then felt he could change anything he wanted. It happened over and over. Mostly he drank on days off. Would go and mix with the germans and avoid the other Army people because they were "ugly americans" according to him. he was fluent in german from the high school he went to, so he blended well. WHen he came home he was NOT NOT NOT over being a difficult child. he was just stronger and better at hiding and more able to hurt me. More convinced that he was right and had the right to know every detail of my life and make me do what he wanted - even in regards to my children and marriage when those happened.

Military does NOT fix all difficult children. They DO send people who don't fit into boot camp home. I know a LOT of people who washed out for various reasons. The majority were because their difficult child behavior would NOT bend to the structure and discipline of the military.

I do think that a 2yr service for all young adults would be an excellent thing, but NOT strictly a military service. And it is really HARD to do a military style home. You don't have neough people to achieve it for any length of time. Someone has to take time away from consstantly supervising and disciplining a difficult child long enough to earn a living and clean the house and do the shopping, Know what I mean??

 

[Shari]

My difficult children' bio dad is a good example, too, Susie. He excelled in the army but could not hold himself together off base. He was discharged largely for failure to act responsibly as a civilian.
Hr's plead down multiple felony assault charges since our divorce. He can't keep a job or pay his bills. And never sees his kids.