Meeting

[newstart]

I had a business meeting with my 35 year old trouble daughter yesterday. We ran a few errands together and then went to a grocery store. I bought salad fixings so after the errands we could come to my home and have a nice salad. She kept insisting that we just eat in the car. She was on her phone constantly checking it or her head was in it. She has told me before how she find it very irritating when she is somewhere with someone and they constantly have their head in the phone. We ate some food in the car. She was edgy and in a hurry even after she told me she took some time out of her schedule so we could take care of a few things.

Feb 1. No house payment...
I know the roommate is going to move in towards the end of Feb and pay half the rent. My daughter said 'well at least you will get 1/2 the rent.' I said where is the other half? I have called the possible roommate several times but she does not return my calls, I am sure my daughter told her not to talk with me.

I feel I am living in a nightmare. I can't let down my guard with her EVER.

After we ran our errands I had cramps, stomach ache, head ache and felt like my soul got punched.

She texted me last night and told me she loved me.. I do not believe you can actually love someone and be so cruel to them. While manic, my daughter only loves herself, and at times I have seen the boyfriend and the shocked look on his face and I know she has done him horribly. I imagine she gets some kind of power charge or some kind of sick satisfaction that she has so much power that she can damage a person.

When I got my troubled mother in law, sister in law and brother in law out of our lives, our lives became a million times better. The unnessesary grief they put us through and the years of trying to come to balance with them was NOT worth it. My daughter is acting the same way with the same patterns, same ugly words.

My husband is planning on going over and talking to our daughter and toxic boyfriend.
I am working on the mechanics of detatching.. My daughter throws me a bone once in a while to try to keep financially tied to her but for my own sake and my mental health I need to cut all financial ties and after all financial ties are cut she is getting cut from my life. Not sure if this is forever. I cut my sister in law off for 20 years. We reconnected a couple of years ago. My husband did not want to do it and told me I was opening a bag of worms if I did. I prayed about it and did it. We are connected but it is like a business relationship. I am ok with this reconnection because we have taken care of some family business but everything with her has to stay on a very business or mechanical level.

I know the saying 'nothing changes if nothing changes' and today it means something more to me. Or the saying I did not cause it, I cannot cure it and I can not control it means more to me on an ever deeper level. The steps I had to take years ago to stop my daughters awful behavior were big steps. I discussed this with a few other people that had troubled kids from my Church but none of them took the steps that I did, they were too afraid or did not have the time etc etc. The steps I took made a huge difference and here I am again having to make those very difficult decisions and steps except this time I am so pissed off at myself that I am in this situation again.... It took me many tries and many years to get rid of my toxic in laws but I have learned the quick steps. The daughter is going to be a bit different and harder but I know I can do it. I am horribly embarrassed that here I am again with something I thought was in the past, something I thought she grew out of, something I thought no one at her age would do. I have a lot of naive thinking to let go of.

Years ago I was so lost as to what to do. I feel upset at myself for allowing this snake to bite me again. As I write this I realize that I am taking action to never let this happen again. Even though I get angry that I am moving so slow on this I have to think out each and every step. Detatching from my adult child is breaking my already broken heart in a trillion pieces yet I know it has to be done for the sake of my marriage, my husband, my self respect and my life journey. I feel so broken but now I will regroup my soul and find something that is filled with God's holy light to gravitate towards and bask in that love and light.

 

[AppleCori]

You have a new “renter” that won’t even talk to you on the phone?

I doubt this is going to end well....

 

[RN0441]

Newstart

I actually do not know what I'd do either.

My first thought is that I think I'd move to someplace warm and retire with hubby and let the chips fall where they may with your daughter. It doesn't seem like she is ever going to be the daughter that you want her to be and that is hard to accept but I think eventually some of have to get there with our difficult adult children.

Then you could talk to her only when it's convenient for you.

I have not spoken to my sister in almost three years due to an incident with my son taking her pain pills on a family trip. She knew he had a problem but left them where he had access to them instead of telling my husband and me about them so we could take precautions. She would not accept any responsibility for that and it made my husband angry and he said something to her but it wasn't even that bad and she now holds a grudge. Of course we were very angry with our son also that day. My sister is a nurse so you'd think she'd know better. Our relationship has struggled prior to this because even though I am the youngest and she is the oldest, I was doing all the leg work to keep our relationship going until about ten years ago when she finally stepped up to the plate and then this happened.

I have had to let go of a lot of things that I cannot control. If I try to control it all I will end up in a rubber room!

Keep your boundaries strong and take care of YOU.

 

[New Leaf]

Our love for our children is constant and never ending. It does not mean we allow them to "play" us. I had a conversation with a nephew about my two. They are out there somewhere, living their lives as they choose. Adults, not adulting very well at all, in my opinion. I tried, and tried, and tried to "help" them. It didn't work, for them, or me. He said "You could build a house in the back for them." To which I said, "No that doesn't work." He made a comment about how my late husband would do it, "Because he loved them." Huh. Well, I love them too, but I will not allow that love to blind me to the obvious, that they would eat me up and spit me out, if I let them.
Unfortunately, for those two, if I allow them to play me, they will.
I believe there is a way to still love someone and not give away our heart and soul, home and finances, to the point of exhaustion, frustration and despair.

My daughter throws me a bone once in a while to try to keep financially tied to her but for my own sake and my mental health I need to cut all financial ties and after all financial ties are cut she is getting cut from my life.

Manipulation and gaslighting is not love. Somehow, our adult children have a feeling of entitlement, and I believe it is up to us to see this. To give what we are able to, from an open heart, without feeling taken advantage of and used. I have to ask myself "Would you allow a stranger to treat you this way?"
Our adult children have to learn to stand on their own two feet. We will not be around forever to rescue them. It doesn't mean we have to coldly cut them off, but this is also on a sliding scale, I believe. Meaning, if the same ole, same ole keeps happening, for our own sanity, we have to do something about it. Because, they won't. It is hard and sad. I wouldn't treat my parents this way. I love and respect them. I wouldn't want to live with them, and wouldn't want them to have to finance my life, either.
I am sorry Newstart for all of your troubles with your daughter. You have given her every opportunity to step to the plate. One of my favorite quotes from Maya Angelou is this
"When a person shows you who they are, believe them the first time."

You have a new “renter” that won’t even talk to you on the phone?

I doubt this is going to end well....

I agree, wholeheartedly. You matter, your life and relationship with your husband matters, your finances matter.
Another quote that helped me pull away from the insanity is
"What you allow, will continue."

It is not easy to take steps to change our thinking and actions. I believe the kindest, most loving thing you can do for your daughter, is to not allow her to take advantage of you. Life is full of lessons for all of us. Let her learn to stand on her own two feet.

My heart goes out to you.
Take care of yourself and find your peace.
I have learned that I have to find my peace, no matter what course my adult children are on.
(((HUGS)))
Leafy

 

[Triedntrue]

I am sorry that your daughter has caused you such pain. My son is bipolar as well and we have reached a point where when he is being nice i am always waiting for the proverbial shoe to drop. Not a good way to live. I am trying to detatch but sometimes i weaken too. Prayers that we both have the strength to do what is best for both of us.

 

[AppleCori]

Has this new renter signed a lease?

 

[newstart]

I love the collective wisdom of this board. Some of you are ahead of me on this dreadful journey and some of you are earlier on this horrid road, but I do appreciate all the support.
Applecori- The renter has not signed a lease yet, she will not return my calls or texts. I will be get involved with this.
RN0441- My husband and I have looked at winter property on the Roatan Islands. We went back again and saw how trash filled the islands are getting so now have to hunt somewhere else. Yes, somewhere very nice and warm. Many of my friends are moving to Costa Rica. I like it there but do not LOVE it there. It really does not matter where I move to, I just want to feel peace in my heart again.
Your sister maybe a nurse but unless you have first hand experience with a troubled child you have no idea the depth of pain and grief of dealing with such a person on a regular basis, and she should have hid her medication, almost like she was daring him to do it.

New Leaf- No way would you want to build a house in the back for your troubled children. Last week my daughter asked me if she could build a tiny home in my back yard. No way would I want her and all the crap she drags with her around my personal space. If she was stable and balanace and kind it would be a great idea but no way is she going to destory this area.
There is not way I would let a stranger treat me the way my daughter has treated me. If my daughter was not my daughter I would have nothing to do with her. I have read the saying from Maya Angelou about a person showing you their true colors, believe them.
Tired Moma-Thank you for the prayer that we do what is best for us.

 

[recoveringenabler]

he renter has not signed a lease yet, she will not return my calls or texts.

This seems like a huge red flag to me newstart. Perhaps it would work better if YOU chose the renter and made all the arrangements. Your daughter is bright and clever, she may be manipulating the renter she found with all kinds of lies and illusions.......trusting your daughter and her friend to rent your home and pay you really sounds like a recipe for disaster.

From everything you've posted about your daughter, having any kind of financial connection with her sounds as if it will end in failure, with you footing the bill. I know how tough this is on you, but your initial thoughts about selling the house seem more in alignment with protecting your finances and allowing your daughter to figure it out for herself. As long as YOU are the default for her lack of financial responsibility, it sure sounds as if she will continue using you to take that responsibility. I would not enter into that negotiation with my daughter either.....she would "intend" on being responsible, but that would not be the end result. The end result would be ME taking it on. My concern is that will be the outcome for you as well.

I understand you want your daughter to have a decent home which you presently can provide. However, I don't think, based on what you've said, that your daughter will rise to your expectations. And, unfortunately, the one who loses in that is you.......protect yourself. Legally, as well as your mothers heart.....put your efforts into yourself and your husband. Your daughter is resourceful, she will find her way. Let her.

 

[Littleboylost]

I love the collective wisdom of this board. Some of you are ahead of me on this dreadful journey and some of you are earlier on this horrid road, but I do appreciate all the support.
Applecori- The renter has not signed a lease yet, she will not return my calls or texts. I will be get involved with this.
RN0441- My husband and I have looked at winter property on the Roatan Islands. We went back again and saw how trash filled the islands are getting so now have to hunt somewhere else. Yes, somewhere very nice and warm. Many of my friends are moving to Costa Rica. I like it there but do not LOVE it there. It really does not matter where I move to, I just want to feel peace in my heart again.
Your sister maybe a nurse but unless you have first hand experience with a troubled child you have no idea the depth of pain and grief of dealing with such a person on a regular basis, and she should have hid her medication, almost like she was daring him to do it.

New Leaf- No way would you want to build a house in the back for your troubled children. Last week my daughter asked me if she could build a tiny home in my back yard. No way would I want her and all the crap she drags with her around my personal space. If she was stable and balanace and kind it would be a great idea but no way is she going to destory this area.
There is not way I would let a stranger treat me the way my daughter has treated me. If my daughter was not my daughter I would have nothing to do with her. I have read the saying from Maya Angelou about a person showing you their true colors, believe them.
Tired Moma-Thank you for the prayer that we do what is best for us.

I found this very helpful when I was learning to detach.
https://www.amazon.com/Dont-Bite-Hook-Resentment-Destructive/dp/1590304349

 

[newstart]

This seems like a huge red flag to me newstart. Perhaps it would work better if YOU chose the renter and made all the arrangements. Your daughter is bright and clever, she may be manipulating the renter she found with all kinds of lies and illusions.......trusting your daughter and her friend to rent your home and pay you really sounds like a recipe for disaster.

From everything you've posted about your daughter, having any kind of financial connection with her sounds as if it will end in failure, with you footing the bill. I know how tough this is on you, but your initial thoughts about selling the house seem more in alignment with protecting your finances and allowing your daughter to figure it out for herself. As long as YOU are the default for her lack of financial responsibility, it sure sounds as if she will continue using you to take that responsibility. I would not enter into that negotiation with my daughter either.....she would "intend" on being responsible, but that would not be the end result. The end result would be ME taking it on. My concern is that will be the outcome for you as well.

I understand you want your daughter to have a decent home which you presently can provide. However, I don't think, based on what you've said, that your daughter will rise to your expectations. And, unfortunately, the one who loses in that is you.......protect yourself. Legally, as well as your mothers heart.....put your efforts into yourself and your husband. Your daughter is resourceful, she will find her way. Let her.

I agree, red flags all over the place. Thank you for looking out for me, I so appreciate you.

 

[newstart]

I found this very helpful when I was learning to detach.
https://www.amazon.com/Dont-Bite-Hook-Resentment-Destructive/dp/1590304349

Thank you so much for suggesting this book, I will check into it. I read that post about detatching that Recoveringenabler has posted. I read that often and it helps ground me. I so appreciate you and the support from this board.

 

[newstart]

I told my daughter that it is NOT a good idea to have the woman with three kids move into the home, my daughter called last night and told me she did not think it was a good idea either. My daughter did not want to live with 3 screaming kids. For many years my daughter and I have spent Superbowl Sunday shopping. It is our standard date. I decided not to do this and ended up keeping my husband company during the Superbowl. I was in no mood to hear lies and BS. My daughter called this morning with a different tone to her voice knowing I am taking actions for my detatchment. Yesterday I told my husband that I need a break from all the crap I have been going through and he said 'I need a divorce from all the crap she puts us through, NOT a break but a divorce. I thought about it for a while. Yes a divorce is so much different than a break. He is ready to take a divorce from her. I think with a break, it is just that, a break where she is welcome to abuse us in the future. A divorce is a final cut.. I know he is ready and has been ready for a very long time to make this cut and I am too sometimes but my momma heart gets in the way each time. I think the last several bunches of BS plus the toxic boyfriend on top of that is enough for me to seriously think of divorcing her BS. I have been seriously looking at highrise living and not telling her or anyone else so it won't get back to her where we are living and changing our phone numbers. Has anyone on this board ever done that?
I know our daughter can sense that we have taken more than our limit and she will have no other choice than to dig deep within and try to get on the right road. And if she chooses not to she will have to suffer and by then we will not be riding that ever flowing ever going BS rollercoaster that she keeps herself and everyone that is associated with her on..I just pray for the strength to not just end her abuse for a few days or years but to end it forever. Years ago when I blew her off for 3 months I thought it had ended for the most part but it has come back with full vengence. It is time to make it end for good.

 

[recoveringenabler]

Good job newstart!

If you get a chance, check out Kalahou's response to cynlee on the thread, Need advice: Adult son with mental problems....things getting worse.

Kalahou's post mirrors my sentiments about how some of us, with older troubled kids, need to detach from our kids in more fundamental ways....she said it well.

Another post by Nomad, A boundary win, maps out strategies that work with kids like ours.

I like the "divorce" idea. Many years ago I gathered my bio-family and let them know that I was "resigning" from my position as the oldest in this dysfunctional family. I'm sure it didn't make much of a difference to any of them, but it was a big day for me, I meant it.

Your commitment shines thru your posts newstart.......keep on keeping on.....you're doing great.....and it hurts our hearts.

 

[newstart]

Recoveringenabler, Just finished reading the most excellent posts that you sent me to. I read both of them put them into my mental tool box and will use those great tools.

Just like childhood friends, I have friends that I loved dearly in Jr high and some have taken a direction that is not good for me. We had to part company. I have to look at my daughter in the same light. My daughter was such a sweet, kind child. We were so very close. She is evolving into someone that I do not like. She is envolving into someone that hurts my spirit deep down to the core and I do not want to feel that abuse on a regular basis.

I remember breaking ties with my bipolar brother in law. It took years because I thought his appolgies were sincere but only until his next round of manic abuse.

When my daughter was 28 I cut all ties for 3 months. It made her change in good ways. The lies did not stop but the belligerence did for a while. I gave her way too many chances. It gets so tiresome to keep trying and balancing and choosing your battles. I don't want to choose between battles, I do not want to have to put a protective shield around me each time I am around her, it is wearing me out.

I know the abuse will stop when I stop it. At this point I cannot help her anymore and her path is her path and if she chooses an ugly path, well then she has to live it.

I pray for strength to not fall back into a trap. She can call me with a nice tone and sound sincere and then I fall back into wanting to do things with her and wanting that mother daughter relationship that I dream about. She is a grown woman that lies and steals and is lazy and does not wish me good will. I do not want such a person around me.

Thank you Recoveringenabler, your guidance has meant the world to me. Huge hug.

 

[newstart]

I got slammed today with a letter saying my daughter has not paid her car note for the past 3 months and it is going into collection. Our name is on the car. She has paid all the payments up until last 3 months and it will be paid off in Oct. She was going to just let us take the bad credit hit and not say anything until someone came to reposes the car. My husband and I have always been financially responsible, our daughters reckless behavior has harmed us to the core. Step by step we are getting our names off of everything tied to hers..Only 8 more months and the car would have been hers. I am not sure what my next move will be.
I am not sure but I think her spa is about to close, I will have to find out what is going on with the spa she opened. Just had to get this out so I can think about my next steps and moves.
My stomach is in knots and I can't sleep, typing this out will help me, that and a good cry.

 

[Triedntrue]

So sorry for your troubles. I know how you feel i made payments on a truck for two years as it sat in a junk yard because he had also let the insurance lapse. I swore i would never do that again and i haven't but still let him get my finances in a mess with helping in other ways. Both of us need to stop now! Good luck and prayers.

 

[newstart]

Hi Tired mama, I am working on it, I will completely divorce my daughter from all financial ties. I made a large cardboard list on all the things we have our name tied up with hers and checking the items off as I completely release her burdens and choices.

We had some weird things happen financially.1. My daughter and I have similar names and when my daughter went to the bank they accidently put her deposit in my savings and gave her the deposit slip with the balance of my account. I have been saving for a long time so there was a healthy amount in there. Her eyes got real big and said 'wow' I had no idea you saved that much money. She feels as if she can help herself to it now.
2.We took her to our financial advisor to get her started up in her future with her own investments. Daughter asked the advisor if her mom and dad were ok for the future and advisor smiled at her and said 'your parents have nothing to worry about, they are really set'
I was so mad when my daughter told me this because first of all it is none of her business. I had a feeling she was going to feel entitled to our money and was going to find ways on how to spend it.
Before I go on I have to say for several years she showed financial responsibility. She has 2 degrees, she can make a good salary. She stayed above water and was doing well. That is one of the reasons we got suckered into this mess again.

This is the second and last round of nightmare that we will ever go through. We got suckered into this last mess because we thought it was helping her secure her future. She quit working when she saw our savings and decided it was for her to spend.
Financial divorce is what is in the process right now. Each day I pick up my chart and find ways on how I can make this happen faster and how I can sever my financial ties.

The disrepect, abuse, and all other negative words you can think of that is associated with this type of behavior. It is criminal..

I have to come up with what I am going to do. On one hand I want to get the car and tell her I will be repoing it and trade it in on a model that I really like. I am not a revengeful person but I do get satisfaction out of justice..Justice feels different than revengeful, Justice is what its going to take to make this awful destructive behavior not my problem. I guess what hurts so terribly much is that is she knows what she is doing and disrespecting us like this. I feel like such a fool for thinking I was helping her and moving her forward..Just trying to help her set herself up so she can have a comfortable future. We have the funds to help her but we can't use them because helping her is NOT helping her.
I admire all of you that cut this financial bleading to the core and not give a penny more. I admire the strength it takes to do that.
I believe this time I will have the strength and it needs to me done.

 

[susiestar]

I am sorry that your daughter is so very spiteful and mean. Some people never learn that the more you take take take from others, and use use use them, the less it is possible to be happy with yourself.

Just because she has degrees and can earn a good salary doesn't mean she will. You are a very loving and caring mother to have wanted to do all of that for her. I do think that showing her your deposit slip with the balance was foolish. By that time you knew that she was a greedy, grasping grubworm and that she wants your money. It is time to go and change the online passwords to your banking, or to set them up if you do not have them, and to use very strong passwords that are hard to remember and you don't leave lying around. Why? She has already stolen from you by not paying what she should. It is not a big step for her to use her similar name to get into your accounts. If she does this, it would give her a police record in order for you to get the money back. You would have to notify the bank and let them press charges, or maybe even press charges yourself. It is really HARD to do that. An ounce of prevention might be a very good thing. She could steal quite a lot of money.

I think your idea of a divorce from her is a good idea. I do think the car needs to be repossessed from her. Not paying it for 3 months is blatantly telling you that she believes she can live off of your money regardless of the agreements that you make. Taking the car and not EVER giving it back, or giving her another one, is a natural and logical consequence.

Please PLEASE go online and check your credit scores. Make sure she has not taken out credit cards in your name. She could claim it was a typo on the part of the credit card company rather than identity theft on her part. If she tries this, don't buy it. Please get the law involved. She seems determined to be just nice enough to take you for every penny she can get.

I have been here a very long time. I have seen parents who came here after their children had taken every single resource and penny they had. Once they had that last penny, the child said nasty things and just left. I believe this is what your daughter will happily do if you allow it. She has already taken so very much from you. When you cut her off for 3 months, she got just nice enough to get the gravy train flowing and the Bank open again, and then the abuse started all over and worse than before. This is exactly what other parents reported when they cut off their children for a while, even for a few years. If you have to see her after the divorce, there should be NO exchange of anything of value. Not even a Christmas gift. It would just give her the idea that the gravy train was operational again.

I know there is a big thread about not writing your children out of your will, but as greedy as your daughter seems, it might be a healthier option to leave her a very small amount of money, if any. Hasn't she already had so much money it is like an inheritance paid before your death?

You and your husband deserve a fun and peaceful life. You have planned well, worked hard and you should be able to enjoy yourselves and each other, not spend so much time being stressed and upset over your daughter's behavior and spite. I fully support you in being done with her.

 

[recoveringenabler]

Newstart, your daughter hasn't paid her rent or her car payments and it appears her business is closing, the usual consequences of those actions are 1. eviction, 2. repossession and 3. loss of all financial privileges. I would strongly encourage you to start eviction proceedings, sell the house, repossess the car, impose all of the financial consequences immediately. That's "justice." Perhaps talking to your financial advisor to figure out the fastest, easiest and most secure way to remove your daughter from All financial connections as soon as possible. She cannot be trusted with money. She is very sly and manipulative and is used to manipulating you and you are at times it seems, like I've been too, blind to what she is doing or can do......I've learned over time to ask others who are not involved with my daughter or I if there are any "holes in my theories" concerning my daughter because I can't always see the truth of what is going on.....perhaps a professional can help facilitate your cardboard list in ways you are not aware of. Protect yourself. I am concerned that you are not seeing the whole picture.

Newstart, your history with your daughter reminded me of the following old story.....

Girl and the Snake

A young girl walking along a mountain path to her grandmother's house heard a rustle at her feet. Looking down, she saw a snake, but before she could react, the snake spoke to her.

"I am about to die," he said. "It's too cold for me up here, and I am freezing. There is no food in these mountains, and I am starving. Please put me under your coat and take me with you."

"No," the girl replied. "I know your kind. You are a rattlesnake. And if I pick you up, you will bite me and your bite is poisonous."

"No, no," the snake said. "If you help me, you will be my best friend. I will treat you differently."

The young girl sat down on a rock for a moment to rest and think things over. She looked at the beautiful markings on the snake and she had to admit he was the most beautiful snake she had ever seen.

Suddenly, she said, "I believe you. I will save you. All living things deserve to be treated with kindness."

She then reached over, put the snake gently under her coat and continued toward her grandmother's house.

Within a moment, she felt a sharp pain in her side. The snake had bitten her!

"How could you do this to me?" she cried. "You promised that you would not bite me, and I trusted you!"

"You knew what I was when you picked me up," he hissed as he slithered away.

What is the moral of the Snake story?

A snake bites you because s/he is a "snake" by nature — and a beautiful liar to charm and manipulate you — until 1) you either open your eyes and ears, wise up and leave, or 2) s/he moves on to the next victim.

The snake doesn't have a conscience or morals like decent, God-fearing people, and any moment of regret s/he may feel, if any, will be quickly forgotten — that's how these kinds of predators operate, it's in their DNA.

You cannot change them.

 

[BusynMember]

I don't think we are blind as much as desperate to believe. I know I did this until I painfully opened my eyes. In many ways I feel fortunate that we did not have enough money to give it to my kids. So that never happened. It sounds like one more terrible dilemma.