Need advise about vacation

[BusynMember]

Ugh. I'm sorry I posted another answer. It's confusing. Every family is different. WSM, I am sure you will do the best for your entire family. We can offer our own opinions, but ultimately we support anything you choose to do.

Sorry I again added to the many answers. I trust you.


Hugs. Remember. this too shall pass and time changes perception. My husband was not too found of my daughter when she was causing family grief with drugs and our two youngest, who were his kids, were afraid of her AND her friends. It is ten plus years later and he loves her like a daughter now and Princess considers my husband another Grandpa to Buddha Baby.

As bleak as things may look or feel now, there is hope. One thing I stand by. Addiction is a family disease,affecting everyone.

Have a peaceful night. This is not your life forever, kind, dear WSM. Sorry if I caused additional angst.

 

[toughlovin]

WSM... I am sad for you that you are not going on this long planned family vacation...but I am glad you found an answer that feels right to you. That is what is most important. Maybe while the family is gone you and your son can have some quality time together. And please find some real life support for you so that whatever is going on with your son does not make you physically or mentally ill.

There was a time when my son was younger when I was pretty obsessed and consumed with what was going on with him. I still think about him a lot, but I have learned to live and enjoy my life no matter what is going on with him. But it took time and support to do that.

 

[worried sick mother]

Again I appreciate each piece of advice because I really don't have anyone to talk to about it other than my mother. Of course she thinks my husband is being ridiculous and my son should be allowed to go. My son doesn't know that my husband feels this way about him and not wanting him to go. That's part of the problem, my husband won't tell him himself , he says I have to tell him. It would hurt my sons feelings terribly if he knew and he may avoid us even more than in the past. That's why I'm stuck in the middle. My son is still with his girlfriend too, has been for 3 years, the first time he has ever been away from her is when he went to rehab. She totally controlled him prior to rehab but I think rehab made him realize that he can be away from her. This trip could have been what got him away from her for good. Their definitely not good for each other.
My son may screw up and I may regret not going on this trip but if I went and he screws up I would have the guilt that it was my fault. So not going is best for me. There's been so much stress over it that I wouldn't enjoy myself anyway.

 

[Ironbutterfly]

The hardest part is making a decision. The back and forth, what to do, not to do, is a major strain, at least that is what I have found. I know you chose to stay back and not go, because you can't stand the thought of hurting your son. on the other hand, how does this effect your other children with you not going? Are they ok with this decision? Will they resent down the road that you didn't go because of son?

I have to agree with SWOT, in that I wish you son would tell you, "Mom, please go without me". That would be the honorable thing to do and it would show that he cares more about you then himself. It would be taking responsibility for the chaos his decisions caused the family. I am sorry husband gave in so easily and was just concerned about getting the refund vs. trying to sit down and talk about how to make everyone happy. I know my husband, if I said I wasn't going, he would have a fit. He would and probably say, if you are not going, then no one is going.

There are many issues I think going on in the family dynamics and I pray that they get resolved.

For the record, my opinion about son staying back is not a form of punishment, it's called accountability. I feel bad that your other children will be cheated out of memories of this once and life time vacation without your presence. BUT, you have to what you feel is right for you, for now. I am glad you came to a decision as it's been stressful on your mental and physical health.

I pray that your son is able to make a new life in being sober, stays off drugs and alcohol.

 

[BusynMember]

Actually, saying, "I understand. Mom" is what mature, healthy 23 year olds do say. My kids are all doing well now and none on them, including my twenty year old girl, would cause this degree of drama. It is hard for those with no experience with mature grown kids to even imagine how a normal 23 year old acts. My daughter's 20th is coming and we asked her what she wanted for her birthday.

It was too expensive. We felt bad. This is the kind of adult child we'd trust with, say, a new car if we could afford one, although she wanted something way less dramatic than a car. When we told her we couldn't, you could tell she was disappointed, but she said, "Dont worry about it, guys. I'm 20 and have a job and I can get that myself. Anything you get, I'lll like it." She was very upbeat.

I don't think my daughter is that different from other young adults. I think difficult adult children are the ones who are in the minority. They fail to transition from seeing us as "mommy who gives me stuff and does hard things for me" to "Mother, who I love and care about and whom is also an adult like me. We care about one another's needs."

Anyway, I'm glad you came to a resolution that you can live with too, WSM. And I hope this girlfriend is not the one who did heroin with your son. Bad karma there.

My husband also would not want to go on vacation without me. But he is crazy about his children. If they were still minor kids and I said,"Honey, I don't feel right going, but please take the kids. That's what I want," then he would go.

I wish your family the best. In the end, the addiction disease affects everyone in the family. It's a selfish illness that hurts and has no up side. Understand that by staying home, you can't stop your son from getting into more trouble, although I desperately hope he does not. Hugs to you. Again.

 

[Sister's Keeper]

The hardest part is making a decision. The back and forth, what to do, not to do, is a major strain, at least that is what I have found. I know you chose to stay back and not go, because you can't stand the thought of hurting your son. on the other hand, how does this effect your other children with you not going? Are they ok with this decision? Will they resent down the road that you didn't go because of son?

I have to agree with SWOT, in that I wish you son would tell you, "Mom, please go without me". That would be the honorable thing to do and it would show that he cares more about you then himself. It would be taking responsibility for the chaos his decisions caused the family. I am sorry husband gave in so easily and was just concerned about getting the refund vs. trying to sit down and talk about how to make everyone happy. I know my husband, if I said I wasn't going, he would have a fit. He would and probably say, if you are not going, then no one is going.

There are many issues I think going on in the family dynamics and I pray that they get resolved.

For the record, my opinion about son staying back is not a form of punishment, it's called accountability. I feel bad that your other children will be cheated out of memories of this once and life time vacation without your presence. BUT, you have to what you feel is right for you, for now. I am glad you came to a decision as it's been stressful on your mental and physical health.

I pray that your son is able to make a new life in being sober, stays off drugs and alcohol.

WSM, please correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think the son realizes that there is this drama going on. I don't think he knows that WSM's husband doesn't want him to go, and WSM's husband won't man up and tell him he doesn't want him to go, he wants WSM to break that news.

I don't think the son knows why WSM is really sitting out this trip.

Either way, it sucks, and I am sorry that the trip is ruined for you. You were damned if you did and damned if you didn't.

 

[Copabanana]

I don't think the son realizes that there is this drama going on.

he wants WSM to break that news.

Honest to g-d, I think this is where the real problem lies. WSM has to carry all of the pain and responsibility in this, and pay the price for all. I am so in agreement with you, Sister's Keeper.

While I can see husband's point of view--sick of seeing you suffer, WSM--he seems to be indifferent himself to making you suffer, or to your bearing all of the responsibility for making things right.

I know in any relationship each partner must cede sometimes, give in to make things work but there is usually a give and take. Not on person gives all and one person takes all.

I know I give in a lot. I do it for love and I do it for responsibility. But I know that each of us gives sometimes. If I felt an inequity, I would be forced to think about whether the relationship was a healthy one. I think this is sister's keepers point of view.

I feel badly that husband does not see or care the price you are paying, WSM. Maybe that is the elephant in the living room. Maybe son is helping you see and face this.

Sometimes things happen for a reason. I am sorry you are suffering WSM.

 

[Sister's Keeper]

Honest to g-d, I think this is where the real problem lies. WSM has to carry all of the pain and responsibility in this, and pay the price for all. I am so in agreement with you, Sister's Keeper.

While I can see husband's point of view--sick of seeing you suffer, WSM--he seems to be indifferent himself to making you suffer, or to your bearing all of the responsibility for making things right.

I know in any relationship each partner must cede sometimes, give in to make things work but there is usually a give and take. Not on person gives all and one person takes all.

I know I give in a lot. I do it for love and I do it for responsibility. But I know that each of us gives sometimes. If I felt an inequity, I would be forced to think about whether the relationship was a healthy one. I think this is sister's keepers point of view.

I feel badly that husband does not see or care the price you are paying, WSM. Maybe that is the elephant in the living room. Maybe son is helping you see and face this.

Sometimes things happen for a reason. I am sorry you are suffering WSM.

In a way yes, but I also have other opinions, which don't really jibe with anyone else's.

I agree it is unfair for WSM to have to be the one to make all the sacrifices, and I have a serious problem with any grown person who institutes a week of the silent treatment and, essentially, threatens to make everyone's vacation a living hell if he doesn't get his way, especially since WSM did attempt a compromise by having her son only join them for 1/2 the vacation. I don't think anyone person in a relationship should make all the sacrifices, and I would hope that a spouse would see how much hurt this is causing and try to reach a compromise.

My actual issue on how I would respond, though, is I just couldn't rescind a no conditions invitation unless there was some real reason to do it. Especially when it involves family and a family bonding opportunity, without causing hurt feeling and more estrangement. How do you tell your child, no matter what age, "Your step father, the man that helped raise you, doesn't want you to go?"

If he were actively using, or if there were conditions on the invitation, or even if it were just myself and my husband, I could say, "It's been a rough year, we just need some us time." I could uninvite him, but because my husband was holding onto old grudges, I couldn't and wouldn't do it. Especially if I had attempted to compromise.

I know nearly everyone disagrees with me, and that people will state that he is an adult so too bad for his feelings, or that he deserves it because he caused WSM so many problems, or that the husband should always come 1st. I just see things differently.

1st we don't know the dynamic with he and WSM. Likely, he does know the pain he caused her, and he may well have apologized and been forgiven or made amends. 2nd, not all addicts are terrifying and violent. Some are just absent. My sister is absent. The kids aren't scared of her, she has never been violent, there has never been any obvious drama in front of her kids. Even when I told her to leave, she left willingly and quietly so as not to upset the kids. So there is no reason to believe that the other kids are scared of him, and from what WSM has said he has separated himself from the life. Or at least she is pretty sure he has.

Anyway, kind of back to Copa's point. I think the point is that WSM really wanted him to go. She wanted to spend this time with him and spend time as a family, maybe putting trying to put some pieces back together, or maybe just spend some relaxing time away from all the drama and influences of the "real" world. Either way, it was expected that her feelings shouldn't be considered. That she should sacrifice what she wants for what her husband wants, which really isn't fair. Her husband was so determined to get his way that he would see WSM forego the entire vacation rather than even compromise.

I just feel very sad for her because I know this has to hurt.

 

[Copabanana]

I just couldn't rescind a no conditions invitation unless there was some real reason to do it.

This thread is really touching each of us and I am not sure why.

For me, I have a SO, after raising my son alone. M goes above and beyond to take responsibility for my son. To the point of trying to teach him to work, and to be a responsible and ethical person. I could not ask for more.

Many, many times--in fact 99 percent of the time, I put M first, before my son. By this I mean, I try to ask M first before extending an offer, invitation, loan something, etc. I serve M food first. I give him the choicest morsels. I defer to M, visibly and deliberately. But see, when I think about it, I honor M because he puts my son and I first, before himself, his own needs and feelings. He always thinks of us first. I owe him for this. I respect him and I insist that my son respect him too.

I know it must hurt sometimes, and anger my son, when I do not visibly put him first, because he was everything in my world before. But the key word is before.

It is not that I replaced my son with M, but I accepted that the proper way of things, is that my son rule in the heart of another woman and his own home, and that he accept that he needs to build that life--and that to mature he needed to understand the nature of this rule. Because it is a rule of nature. That a young male must defer to the elder and stronger...or leave.

I believe that is a basis of civilization.

So, I believe I insist on this natural order of things, for my son perhaps more, than for myself and for M. Because I believe my son must learn to humble himself, to our rules in our home. It was his home--it is now ours.

How do you tell your child, no matter what age, "Your step father, the man that helped raise you, doesn't want you to go?"

There are two ways to look at this. One is that step-father has too much unfettered power, because WSM seems to not speak up when he goes too far.

But to overlook the very real reasons that step-father may have is both unfair to step-father--and unfair and wrong for son. Because son must be accountable for the grief he has caused. To hold him blameless--is wrong to him.

But I agree with sister's keeper. WSM could say to her husband: We offered an invitation to son. I want to keep it. Because to me the price is too high to reject him. Not when all of the other kids are included. He is a part of our family. Everybody is. Everybody screws up sometimes. Am I not part of the family if I make a mistake? Are you?

And if husband does not like it, he can be the one to stay home. After all, why should it be WSM who stays home?

But on the other hand, why should WSM not speak directly to son: To me, it would be easy, because it is the truth. In my own family I would say it like this:

Son. We have gotten nuts, all of us, with all of these drugs. You, I, husband--everybody. I accept that the initial invitation was without conditions, but I realize that was wrong. (How could there not be a response to unfettered use of heroin?) In life there are conditions. I was wrong to not make them explicit. Now I will.

You see. Why are we not free to change our minds, if conditions change? So, that brings us back to husband. He changed his mind. So he is responsible for owning that. Not WSM. Do you see, WSM? Why should it be you that carries the responsibility and the consequences, when there are multiple people in the family who are the movers and shakers?

You see, son needs to be reined in, too. I believe that is part of addiction...the running away with impulses and self-indulgence. Son is a victim of a family dynamic. Yes. That is true. But he also was a mover in creating a mess of things. For himself and everybody else. Why is it wrong to hold him to this?

But WSM is a victim of the family dynamic, too. In a way, so is husband. He has been allowed to bully. Through his inflexibility and silent treatment he has been allowed to misuse his power.

I do not think all of us who are posting (sorry WSM) are that far apart. This is a complex family issue. Unfortunately, you, WSM, are taking responsibility for all of it. That is why you feel sick. It is too much.

 

[BusynMember]

One can not force another to do anything.

I'm not sure the other kids are not afraid of son. They matter. Husband matters.

I would never tell my husband what he had to do. Nor would I listen to him if he told ME what to do. There are minor kids involved here and a history of this adult using heroin and harboring drug dealers. Its a risk to take him on a vacation with minor kids. To me, this is more about the sons choices making him a scary traveling companionn

As the mother who was there from the beginning, I took responsibility for my kids. My husband came into their lives later and he was my husband, but they have a father. He could never be the father and I didn't expect that of him. I was good delivering news to my kids and there has been no long term harm. Everyone gets along fine now.

We are touched here because we are playing out our own stories and our own reactions to our own situations and placing them on poor WSM. And she is not us. I don't believe any one way works best across each family. No one size fits all.

I validate her decision. Life is tough. Decisions are hard. When you live with an addict you are in survival mode. I do not see father as bad guy here. He is protecting his kids and is angry when his wife is abused by adult son. Appropriate feelings.

Living with a drug addict is different than just talking about it. It's quite the experience, ESPECIALLY when younger kids are involved. Many addicts try to get the young sibs to use.

Adult son has not been living a sober life long enough to be safe, if in fact he is even sober. It is way to soon to know.

My daughter's drug use GREATLY affected my younger kids. We were lucky that our kids turned away from drugs and Jumper decided to become a cop. But in Daughters using days, she was not allowed to be in close knit situations with the younger ones.

Once she quit, the entire family dynamic changed.

Until son is proven safe for a long time, it's too bad in my opinion if he may get his feelings hurt. The younger kids must come first and be protected from him until he proved he is truly clean and sober for a long time. And his going back to heroin using girlfriend is a bad sign.

It is hard when you have young ones to keep safe.

One kid is not the same as one adult son and three below 18 children. It needs to be handled in a different way than if this were the only child, although he is an ADULT.

Husband also matters. He came into this late and is powerless to change this son. In my world, my adult son would have to prove his sobriety before I'd expect others to feel safe around him. It's not realistic.

I never felt afraid of my daughter, but her associates scared me. And she exposed them to us. Drug addicts are not safe. They find other addicts even on vacations.

Anyhow, due to circumstances, this was never destined to be a bonding vacation. Son is the elephant in the room...his addiction. It always is when addiction is in the family. And only grown son can prove he is trustworthy. It is nobody else's fault but his own that he is not always welcome in the fold. If he were not an addict who harbors dealers, I'm sure this vacation would be a whole different story. But it is what it is. Unfortunately, Son did not attempt to be a good role model for the young ones. That's his decision.

 

[Sister's Keeper]

One can not force another to do anything.

I'm not sure the other kids are not afraid of son. They matter. Husband matters.

I would never tell my husband what he had to do. Nor would I listen to him if he told ME what to do. There are minor kids involved here and a history of this adult using heroin and harboring drug dealers. Its a risk to take him on a vacation with minor kids. To me, this is more about the sons choices making him a scary traveling companionn

As the mother who was there from the beginning, I took responsibility for my kids. My husband came into their lives later and he was my husband, but they have a father. He could never be the father and I didn't expect that of him. I was good delivering news to my kids and there has been no long term harm. Everyone gets along fine now.

We are touched here because we are playing out our own stories and our own reactions to our own situations and placing them on poor WSM. And she is not us. I don't believe any one way works best across each family. No one size fits all.

I validate her decision. Life is tough. Decisions are hard. When you live with an addict you are in survival mode. I do not see father as bad guy here. He is protecting his kids and is angry when his wife is abused by adult son. Appropriate feelings.

Living with a drug addict is different than just talking about it. It's quite the experience, ESPECIALLY when younger kids are involved. Many addicts try to get the young sibs to use.

Adult son has not been living a sober life long enough to be safe, if in fact he is even sober. It is way to soon to know.

My daughter's drug use GREATLY affected my younger kids. We were lucky that our kids turned away from drugs and Jumper decided to become a cop. But in Daughters using days, she was not allowed to be in close knit situations with the younger ones.

Once she quit, the entire family dynamic changed.

Until son is proven safe for a long time, it's too bad in my opinion if he may get his feelings hurt. The younger kids must come first and be protected from him until he proved he is truly clean and sober for a long time. And his going back to heroin using girlfriend is a bad sign.

It is hard when you have young ones to keep safe.

One kid is not the same as one adult son and three below 18 children. It needs to be handled in a different way than if this were the only child, although he is an ADULT.

Husband also matters. He came into this late and is powerless to change this son. In my world, my adult son would have to prove his sobriety before I'd expect others to feel safe around him. It's not realistic.

I never felt afraid of my daughter, but her associates scared me. And she exposed them to us. Drug addicts are not safe. They find other addicts even on vacations.

Anyhow, due to circumstances, this was never destined to be a bonding vacation. Son is the elephant in the room...his addiction. It always is when addiction is in the family. And only grown son can prove he is trustworthy. It is nobody else's fault but his own that he is not always welcome in the fold. If he were not an addict who harbors dealers, I'm sure this vacation would be a whole different story. But it is what it is. Unfortunately, Son did not attempt to be a good role model for the young ones. That's his decision.

Again, I still disagree. I know you have said we are reading a lot of our own situations into this, and you are reading a lot of your own into it.

I may be missing something, but I think that WSM has said that her son was never deliberately abusive to the family, and wasn't a drug user while living at home. That this occurred later after he was out on his own. That the "abuse" that has occurred was more in what he put her through with worry. I also don''t recall her ever saying that he exposed her or her family to drug dealers or obvious drug use. That she found out that he was associating with these people through her own snooping. (I mean, naturally, he was associating with them, drug addicts have dealers) I think she actually said he mostly stayed away to shield them from his drug use.

Like you have said all families are different, all experiences with addiction are different. I am just not the person that can hold a long term grudge, and I don't have the energy to make someone pay for their wrongs at every turn in the road.

I feel bad, though, because WSM has been put in a no win situation where she is going to get hurt no matter what she chooses. Like you said, the son is grown, the husband is grown, if we believe "too bad for his feelings he is an adult" then, rightfully, the husband should man up and do the talking and the telling, he should not emotionally blackmail WSM into making a choice she, clearly, isn't comfortable making. If adults are accepting responsibility for their choices, then the husband is an adult and should, too.

Personally, I don't care for emotional blackmail. This passive-agressive I am not speaking to you, or I am going to make you miserable if you don't do what I want crap wouldn't fly with me. Not from my husband. Mature people discuss, heck, even argue, but don't stomp off in a pout.

Either way, different families, different dynamics, different choices. WSM made the choice that she felt was best for her in the given situation. I am sure it wasn't easy, and I am sure it came with some hurt, and for that I am sorry.

 

[InsaneCdn]

I think we should park this side-discussion. It isn't helpful to the original poster, and isn't producing anything else helpful at this point.

 

[Copabanana]

I think we should park this side-discussion.

I, for one, have really welcomed this discussion because it has helped me understand better my own needs and values--because I have had to clarify them.

WSM. I hope we have not scared you away.

Take care.

 

[toughlovin]

WSM - I too hope you haven't been scared away by the discussion. I think your situation brought up a lot for a lot of us dealing with this issue.

Sisters Keeper - I just want to say I agree with a lot of what you have had to say. Even though at times I have had to do very tough love with my son I have come to the conclusion that at least for me, cutting him completely off will not really help him either. I have cut him off when he is being totally irresponsible, using and not doing anything to help himself..... But I do feel showing love and compassion and understanding is more helpful.

The worry I had for WSM in taking her son on vacation was that he was addicted to heroin and was pretty newly clean. That is a hard addiction to stay away from and drugs are everywhere.... And so taking him on vacation felt very risky.

 

[Copabanana]

I have come to the conclusion that at least for me, cutting him completely off will not really help him either.

Hi TL.

You know that I have come to the same position. I was helped to it, by my son. First, I saw he was adhering to some limit setting by me. Second, everywhere else doors were closed. He had us, only. That changed his motivation so that the preponderance of his energy is to go along with what we want, not to fight us.

I see no problem what so ever to setting limits with our children, and telling them exactly the consequence of their behavior. I do not see this as punitive. I see it as real life.

I believe WSM is torn up inside because she feels her husband is rejecting her child and to some extent or another has had a double standard from the beginning. So, setting limits, for her son has become completely intertwined with the sense that he will feel rejected.

That confusion may be only in WSM, or it may be in son as well.

Consistently what I have been referring to in my posts, is this. The truth will not harm. Secrets harm.

It may be that WSM needs to have an honest talk with herself, to figure out what her priorities are and what she wants. And then, work out her life in accordance to this honest self-appraisal.

WSM, I am sorry for the tangle you find yourself in. Only you will be able to straighten out. I hope you post. We do care, here.

 

[BusynMember]

My concern is the minor kids, but I had my say and agree with Insane on this. Whether or not he e,posed the rest of the family to heroin before, it could easily happen on a vacation where everyone has to be in close contact. Heroin. Is not easy to kick. It is dangerous.

 

[Copabanana]

The thing is this: On the chance it will happen again (any dangerous or abusive behavior by a difficult child, or anybody else), how long do we exclude, banish a family member?

It is not such a simple decision because the smaller children can pay a price either way. Children will often look at what happens to other family members (seeing it as punishment and extrapolate from that--about themselves. And they do not think logically.) They are ruled by guilt and fear.

If son is banished, they may will begin to think that they will be too for minor and inconsequential things. And a parent will not know how they are thinking. They have watched what happened around them and change their view of their world. I am not saying here to disregard danger. I am saying it is a balancing act.

Every single one of the children on CD that I can think of has done something, many things, that could be seen as cause for exclusion. I am not saying that opioid use is not a big thing.

This post is about exclusion and favoritism, and coming to grips with the reality of it, and what to do. WSM did not post asking about heroin--and how to respond.

While the majority of our kids here on CD are not involved with heroin, most of our kids have been violent in one way or another and abusive. While we are about many things here on CD, detaching, etc.--we are also about knowing when and how to try again. Every parent makes his or her own decisions, and should.

WSM wanted her son to go. That is the whole point of the post. She was willing to risk it. She did not want to exclude her son.

Whether we feel that recent recovery from heroin addiction is cause for exclusion, is not the point. She does not.

While WSM has made her decision (and may or may not return to CD) I hope this thread guides other parents in similar circumstances.

 

[Ironbutterfly]

I really wish we had more information about the history of husband and son; if son just messed up once with heroin, went to rehab or if there has always been times when he has made bad decisions, causing stress on the family as a whole. I also wish husband would have been more willing to discuss further. I know my husband would cancel the trip if I refused to go.

WSM, wishing you peace of heart with this difficult decision.

 

[BusynMember]

Son is not banished. He simply isn't safe yet. I'd give him a year of sobriety. There are young kids involved. It is different otherwise. If the younger kids are hurt by him in any way CPS could get involved. It is insane to compare a drug using 23 year old man to minor kids. I don't get the mindset.

I always loved my daughter as much as all the kids, but had a duty to protect the young ones who could not protect themselves. She never would have gone anywhere with us while I didn't know if she would be safe around them or not. She didn't hold it against me and most certainly didn't feel scapegoated.

Nobody is banishing anyone. This is a vacation. Nobody is slamming the door in his face forever.

A stepfather is not the same as a father. They enter late and if the others child is causing chaos, sorry, hard to love that child as much as the ones who are his, young and not in trouble all the time.

Son did not do heroin just once. I assume WSM has long vsnished.

 

[Ironbutterfly]

Son is not banished. He simply isn't safe yet. I'd give him a year of sobriety. There are young kids involved. It is different otherwise. If the younger kids are hurt by him in any way CPS could get involved.

Son did not do heroin just once. I assume WSM has long vsnished.

Well, I understand probably didn't just do it once, but what I meant was this a one time stint, like 6 months of on a heroin trip, then checked into rehab. Yes, I too am concerned about the minor children. I have been wondering how he was going to do his anti-drug shots if gone for 10 days. Not sure how long the shot lasts, etc.