New

[ColleenB]

Thanks for the feedback. Our son has never been violent, he rarely even gets angry. This is one of the reasons it's been hard since he is usually very kind and respectful.

Last year, when his drug use was more extreme, he did have issues with anger and punched the wall once.

I know it seems like I'm being naive, but he rarely lies to us. He has been honest about most things with us. He says last year at the height of his drug use he was lying to us but says he has been honest lately.... I don't know what to believe, but I am trying to be objective.

 

[InsaneCdn]

He says last year at the height of his drug use he was lying to us but says he has been honest lately

The standard catch-22. Our kids destroy trust by their behaviors and choices, and then expect us to instantly believe that they have changed. They may be making an effort... or not. We don't know, and we can't really trust their words. And THEY get upset because we don't trust them.

 

[New Leaf]

Hi Colleen, I am so glad that you had this opportunity to see this side of your son, again, this past week. It is hard when our young adults go into this downward spiral with drug use. Especially when they have been sweet, gentle souls most of their lives.

He talks about going to university again after Xmas, and I don't know how he is paying... With drug money? How do I turn a blind eye to that?

It is tough Colleen, but we really do not have a say in what our kids are doing as adults.

I want so bad to believe in him, he really is a smart and kind soul, I still can't beleive he has been a dealer... He was the kid no one would have expected to choose this. He always cared about others and has tons of empathy. When he was in grade nine we even volunteered together at the soup kitchen for a year.

There is something definitely going on with your son, his drastic changes, the depression. Maybe since he has had this chance to be with the family, you can sit with him and see if he is open to getting help?

We have tried to encourage him and even paid for new equipment ( he lost?? His original gear) and signed him up for an intremural team at the university. More money we have wasted.... He never goes.

All of this does not make any sense. It is no wonder you are so confused.

I know I'm rambling... I find my thoughts are so jumbled and do that. I wonder all the time at what point did he go from an all A student and athlete to a druggie??? It happened so fast and it's so scary.

Colleen, it is good you are here, getting this out. You are not rambling, you are venting, this stuff is so puzzling, so very troubling and vexing. Let it all out, it is not good to have it pent up inside of you. We understand where you are at with this. I was on the same wave length when my two were on this spiral. We love our children and we want the best for them. When they are past 18, so much of that has to come from them, they have to want the best for themselves. There is so much to get into in college. My friends son went on a partying binge his freshman year, she found out and yanked him. I hear a lot of similar stories. There are so many drugs available.....
Drug use is fast and scary. It depends too, on what he has used. Some drugs cause severe depression with withdrawal. Depends on what son has dabbled with......my eldest was a sweet kid too, she will still not admit to using....even though we know, her sister and friends have told us....we found evidence...she has changed so much. It is sad, such a loss. I wish I would have seen it coming, but then, what could I do? She is an adult making her own choices? I gave her to God and pray she wakes up.
It is a rough roller coaster ride. I am glad you have had a reprieve during this trip. Hoping the best for you and yours dear. Keep posting and let us know how you and son are doing.
It will be okay. You are not alone.
((( hugs)))
leafy

 

[New Leaf]

Hi Colleen, I found this over in the PE forum, you can post there too, lots of us do, it applies to folks with adult aged children.....anyway, I thought you would find this reply interesting....

Another way to see this kind of anxiety is: perfectionism. That your child is overwhelmed by fear, not that he will not be adequate, but that he will not be perfect ~ which none of us is. Think about the Arabic rug weavers who design a flaw into the rug because nothing, ever, will be perfect. When we find ourselves in the position your child is in now, the bravery it takes to meet the day anyway ~ to try, anyway ~ is astounding. There is no pleasure in succeeding, only the horror of the next perfection, and the next, and there is never a feeling of honor or reward.

I learned these things from reading Brene Brown's work on coping with overwhelming feelings. I will reference some of the books for you, IAD. Maybe, one of them could help your son see himself as what he is: Someone coping bravely with challenges other people would be crushed beneath.

How we see ourselves and our struggles can make a difference.

Here is the Brene Brown Ted Talk Cedar attached to the thread....

I absolutely love her, thanks Cedar, for the intro!

Just thought this might be interesting to you to, Colleen, especially in your line of work.

The way you describe your son, seems that maybe he struggles with issues with perfectionism. He had such a "perfect" high school period, maybe when he got to college, he was so overwhelmed, and worried about being "perfect", he just kind of shut down?

Hmmmmm.

Thoughts?
(((HUGS)))

leafy

P.S. This may not seem relevant, but I will write of it. It has to do with dealing with perfectionism. My Dad passed a few years back. He was a stoic, not very expressive, but a driven man, athletic, all of the attributes you speak of in your son. I found out later, that my Dad struggled with alcoholism. He eventually went to A.A. and stopped drinking entirely in his 50's.
Why do I write this?
When Dan was in hospice, the spiritual advisor, spoke with me, and shared with me that my Dad was doing intense work on his history, and the biggest wall he encountered, was that he was not perfect. I felt so sad for my Dad, that this was the struggle he wrestled with at the end of his life. None of us are perfect, we all make mistakes.
But, evidently, according to this talk, there are people out there who struggle with this, and some shut down, with the weight of it. Maybe this is what is stopping your boy?

leafy

 

[New Leaf]

OOOPS not Dan was in hospice, DAD. TYPO!
I hope today is a better day for you Colleen.
Breathe and take one day at a time.....
leafy

 

[Copabanana]

Colleen, I wanted to say "hi" today. I have not had time to read through most of the posts but did read your history of the issues with your son.

This is what I think: This is a situation where there is really a right or wrong thing to do. It is a black and white situation and every aspect has to be confronted without ambiguity.

You cannot compromise yourself. Because if you do, you compromise your son, and your other son.

By letting a small thing go, it tells your son that you are confused...that there are shades of gray...that there can be aspects of his situation that can be tolerated.

This is what I think now: There is no part of illegal or self-destructive behavior that can be tolerated.

I could lose my job if it came out I knew.

You are compromising yourself here, your safety and your integrity. This can never be a good thing. You know what you must do. I think you do.

This can never be good for your son. That is what I think.

He is a smart person. A good person. He can understand, if you tell him the truth.
The situation you are putting yourself in if you look the other way. Your obligation to do the right thing. For him. For yourself. For your job. It is a matter of integrity and responsibility, I think. To tell them the truth. To tell ourselves the truth.

That is how we get through this. By telling ourselves the truth. By letting in the truth. We see we are strong enough to bear it. We see ourselves being strong people. And with this, we grow stronger.

You are doing this. We are changing, all of us, in what we see as our role as mothers. You are strong. Stronger than you think. We are with you. You are not alone with this.

COPA

 

[New Leaf]

He is a smart person. A good person. He can understand, if you tell him the truth.
The situation you are putting yourself in if you look the other way. Your obligation to do the right thing. For him. For yourself. For your job. It is a matter of integrity and responsibility, I think. To tell them the truth. To tell ourselves the truth.

Indeed Copa, I agree. It is hard to see the truth, when we are battling heart and head.....I think we all benefit from a stance with integrity, even if our d cs balk at us, or refuse to see their dilemma, someone has to see it, in order to rise above. By seeing it, it starts a different pattern for us, and them. They have to look at this thing for the reality of it, because we, as parents are. It is hard, but it is freeing. It is a part of the stages we go through in dealing with this.
- Shock or Disbelief
- Denial
- Anger
- Bargaining
- Guilt
- Depression
- Acceptance and Hope

That is how we get through this. By telling ourselves the truth. By letting in the truth. We see we are strong enough to bear it. We see ourselves being strong people. And with this, we grow stronger.

Truth, is a part of acceptance, I believe, and the truth will set us free.

leafy

 

[Copabanana]

When I was working in a job abo ut 8 years ago a co-worker said in front of colleagues and I--"Copa doesn't have any boundaries." It was a professional job. Where it mattered very much that I would have boundaries. It was in a prison.

To prove him, right, while I did not have the intention to do so, I said nothing.

To be honest, I did not know what he meant.

Now, I would say (I hope I would): What do you mean by that? So that he would have to own it, not me.

These years later it still hurts me, the unfinished business of that exchange. That I allowed myself to be tarnished. Be his victim. That I did not speak up for myself. Even if it was true, what he said. I could have used the opportunity to define myself, and my boundaries. By building them.

I just looked online: I asked google, What are personal boundaries?

This is what I took from the article I read.

Boundaries are places you will not go. They are your personal rules about your space, your body, your mind...where you will not allow others (or yourself) to intrude, to go past.

The article ended with an example by the author about how she as a child she was tickled by her older brother without mercy, until she could not bear the pain of it.

My father tickled me like that.

The author states that if we are subjected to treatment as children where we have no control over our minds, bodies, space--we feel the same lack of control as adults. We question our right to set limits. Or we just let it go by. Like I did with that man.

But now we can change. I need to remember that.

With our children. They need that. We cannot be the victims of our children. It is not good for us. Or for them.

Our problem, or my problem, is that my idea of love, I think, was bound up with a sense of a lack of control. I need to change that. I am changing it.

COPA

 

[New Leaf]

I just looked online: I asked google, What are personal boundaries?

Hi sister Copa, this would be a really good discussion in FOO, too......what do you think?
What are personal boundaries?
I think with our children, we are so close to them, at some point, things meld together? We nurture and care for them, applaud their accomplishments, mourn over their struggles.....I think our difficulty seeing what is happening, when they go down a path like this, knowing what to do, we have become so emotionally tied to our children. This is what I am working on, setting up healthy boundaries for my emotions concerning my two......

Thank you Copa
leafy

 

[ColleenB]

I am a big Brene fan myself I need to go back and watch some more of her talks.

It's interesting that the topic went into boundaries. I feel this is an issue for me. I think unconditional love to me has meant " do anything" they need .... Whether it's making them a lunch, or being kind to them despite their actions. But maybe I'm doing more harm than good.

I have to be clear with my son what I am ok with, and him dealing drugs while living with us is not ok. He is such a smart kid, why is this ok for him??? We are very hard workers, and have never done anything illegal, nothing! I don't even jay walk!

He worked last year with kids whose mother was a drug addict and he often talked about how messed up that was for them. He saw first hand the results of a drug lifestyle. He had so much empathy for them and said it really helped him kick his own hard drug habit. When I helped him get the job at the school I did not know he was using! I would never have helped him. He never went to work high, of that I know. He credits the job with getting him clean.

I just can't believe he is dealing now. I think because it's pot he doesn't think it's bad.... And where we live , pot could become legal in the near future, so even our politicians are giving the message it's not "that bad".

Am I a prude??? I feel most people now say pot isn't a big deal.... Ugh

 

[Copabanana]

He is such a smart kid, why is this ok for him??? We are very hard workers, and have never done anything illegal, nothing! I don't even jay walk!

I did not know he was using! I would never have helped him.

Colleen, I think you are still blaming yourself, as if some part of you still thinks you did something wrong, hold some responsibility for his choices. Some of us on this board are police, correctional officers, doctors, therapists, teachers. Are we more responsible, those of us who could never, should never have had a kid gone wrong? What does any of it have to do with it?

We learn that it has nothing to do with us, really. Our kids are adults navigating their own way. All we can do is do the right thing now. Nobody was perfect, is a perfect parent or person. We try to do the right thing, right now. Forgiving ourselves.

COPA

 

[BusynMember]

Some kids (and more adults than you probably think) don't even consider pot a drug, much like most adults drink and don't consider alcohol a drug. I don't like either and equally. Cigarettes are legal too and I hate them.

In my house, the boundaries are: Our house/our rules.

Nobody smokes anything. Nobody does anything illegal. Nobody gets drunk. We don't even have alcohol. Nobody is disrespectful. Our home is our sanctuary. It is OUR home, not our children's home. One day they will probably have a home, but it will be separate from ours and they will make their own rules. The same goes for you and your house and rules.I feel your house should be a sanctuary for you too...a place where you can be peaceful and safe.

Finally, I agree that we have nothing to do with our grown children's bad choices. Peers become more important than we do as they age. We are not with them as much and they may choose bad friends and make poor choices, but how is that our fault if we didn't teach them to do it? Don't be hard on yourself. You are a good person who is puzzled, like all of us are, when our grown or not grown children decide to abuse substances. We didn't cause it, we can't cure it, and we can't control it. And our grown kids keep lots of secrets and do it well so we don't know everything they are doing.

Hugs!!!

 

[New Leaf]

It's interesting that the topic went into boundaries. I feel this is an issue for me. I think unconditional love to me has meant " do anything" they need .... Whether it's making them a lunch, or being kind to them despite their actions. But maybe I'm doing more harm than good.

Yup, boundaries is a sticky one, especially, for "nice" folks. Why do we have a hard time standing up for ourselves? Do we tippy toe around our kids, because of mood swings, depression? Sometimes I think this happens, and we do not even realize it.

I have to be clear with my son what I am ok with, and him dealing drugs while living with us is not ok. He is such a smart kid, why is this ok for him??? We are very hard workers, and have never done anything illegal, nothing! I don't even jay walk!

I think a lot of this thing, is kids can have two very different sides to them, one in front of authority figures, a whole different side in front of friends.....So, if our kids dabble with drugs and start to hang out with these kids, one thing leads to another. I say this...because when I was younger, 13, this was me.
This is not easy for me to share, but if it helps another person in any way.....
My parents were pretty naive, caught up in their work, gave us a pretty long leash....I could be charming at home, and party hard, with my friends.
I was a sweet, decent kid too, but I wasn't about to let my parents know the full extent of my partying. I would never, in a million years, in those times, admit to my folks what I was doing. Because, then they would tighten up the reins, also, I was innerly ashamed of what I was doing.
You know Colleen, I think I have kind of posted this before, to a smaller extent, but I will go a little deeper, because I was much like your boy, with the exception that this happened in my high school years.
Child of the 70's, anything and everything was readily available. I was a mixed up teen, had some issues at home with a bullying older sister.....I wanted to be cool and accepted, home was not my haven, it was hell for me. So, I rebelled, with my friends, but maintained a "front" at home, I had to. The "truth" was trouble with a capital "T". My parents really did not want to know, it was too messy for them, so they averted their attention.....they closed their eyes.
At one point, 16, I think, Mom had me see a therapist, I completely hoodwinked her, too.
This could be the case with your son. He is not going to be truthful, really truthful, he is not going to bust himself with his parents. No matter how sweet and gentle he is, I, too, was that sweet gentle kid.
I was vey troubled, smart, athletic, former A student,
LOST.
Can you imagine how strange it must be, to have to be two different people?
Looking back, I remember the game it was. I thought my parents were so incredibly stupid! I would never tell them this. Fooling them, allowed me to take more risks. I remember Mom asking me why my eyes were so red, I would tell her "Salt water, Mom, I was at the beach." She believed me, she just didn't want to see it. I also remember laughing about it with friends, how fooled my parents were.......

Please consider this.
I am sharing this with you in hopes that you will think very deeply
about the possibilities that your son is in way over his head,
way more than you think he is.

I went on a trip with my parents, 16, I was. Visiting family. I remember my Mom remarking at how wonderful I was, well behaved, with family. Like the good "old" me was back. (By this time, they knew I was in some trouble.) I went right back to my old friends, same m.o. as soon as we got home.
I changed when I got a job at 18. Just stopped. I didn't go to college. I wish I had. Started my family at 20. No drugs.
I apologized over and over to my parents, for the trouble I got into, in my teens, I felt so badly. Still do........

I share this with you, because it is possible for a nice kid, to get messed up with the wrong crowd, drugs, become a whole different person, away from the view of parents. Reading of your son, reminded me of my past, not proud, but hey, if it helps someone.....

Colleen, this is what I tried during those times, pot, angel dust, cocaine, uppers, downers, all kinds of alcohol, acid. I drew the line at shooting up, but rather, anything else to "party" was fair game.

Very risky, risky behavior.

I am lucky to be alive, and have half of my wits about me.

I am thankful to God, that crack or meth was not in the picture back then.

My parents knew absolutely NONE of this.......

I just can't believe he is dealing now. I think because it's pot he doesn't think it's bad.... And where we live , pot could become legal in the near future, so even our politicians are giving the message it's not "that bad".
Am I a prude??? I feel most people now say pot isn't a big deal.... Ugh

You are not a prude, Colleen, pot is definitely a gateway drug, and it is mixed with all kinds of stuff. It is very potent and highly addictive. Yes, it has medicinal value, but it is way overused in that vein...
By your description of the changes in your son, I am thinking, he has probably gotten in to way more than cocaine or pot. I am sorry to write this, not trying to scare you off, just a hunch, by the immense changes in his personality.
I hope I am wrong, but I did want to share with you, because you are going through so much emotional upheaval and seesawing on what maybe happening with your son.

I thought my #3 "just smoked pot". I was shocked when her cousin confided with me that she was also heavy in to crack. OMG CRACK? "Yes, Aunty, my brother, too, they smoke it together with pot. It's cheap. That's why her personality is so different."

What a slap. If the Gods of payback were upon me.......
Then my #1, I found out, smoked meth....."METH?" GULP. I would have never believed it.

This drug abuse with 20 and 30 somethings is rampant in our society. I pray that what you think of your son is reality. I am more inclined to think otherwise. For his, and your sake, do not let him fool you. Stand your ground, and do not let him jeopardize you, your family, your job, your view of yourself as a good parent, or a good person.
Sometimes, nice kids, make very bad choices.

Truthfully yours,
leafy

 

[Nancy]

Colleen I live in Ohio and we almost voted it legal last month. It's only a matter of time. My daughter would smoke 24/7 I think if it became legal. If someone has the addict gene they could become addicted to broccoli if it made them feel good. My daughter is like that. Other can smoke once in a while and have no problems.

 

[BusynMember]

My parents knew absolutely NONE of this.......

YES! This is often my point.

Leafie, I was a goody two shoes, although my dysfunctional mother probably thought I took drugs and had wild sex. I did neither, so when my daughter started to use, I had no clue, even about the pot, until I caught her redhanded. Then I was naive enough to think she was only smoking pot. I didn't like it, or think it was harmless, and I still don't think it is harmless for all people, just like I know alcohol is lethal for many. I've known folks who died from alcoholism. But I was too naive and also had my head in the sand so that I had no clue my daughter was doing heavy drugs, such as speed/meth and selling it as well. She kept a job at Walmart as she went to high school. She went to Cosmetology School and got all A's and her certificate. All this time she was on drugs. The school called me once saying her friends came to them because they were worried about her using coke. I spoke to her and s he swore it was a lie and the girls were just mad at her and she even cried and said s he had quit ALL drugs, even pot. I believed it until I came home one day to a pill party. That's when she was finally caught. And I didn't really know what the pills were until she finally quit and told me exactly how bad it was.

She did not act like a bad kid to me. I could tell something wasn't right, but she did fool her therapist who said she had bipolar and she was hospitalized once and fooled them too.

I guess my point is, we, who know our kids smoke pot, do not know if that is all they do. I sure didn't know.

I was so shocked when I found out, I don't think I even responded to her confessions.

My daughter is doing well now so they CAN quit, but it isn't easy or fast and their word alone means less than a penny. Your son, like my daughter, is smart and t his could really help him. It is how and why my daughter decided the drug life was not for her. She even quit smoking cigarettes!

Don't give up hope...ever...but be realistic too and don't believe everything you are told or you could be fooled. Maybe that's a good thing. I was probably better off not knowing how bad it was with my daughter. As it was, I was nervous enough thinking it was just pot.

Thanks for sharing, Leafie.

 

[Rosie67]

Oh Colleen, I am so sorry to read your story. It seems we have all travelled similar situations. I remember reading an article about how parents enable the behaviours displayed by our children, well mine anyway. I have spent soooo long trying to minimise the problems, pay off any debts, hide the problem from our family, even turning a blind eye etc etc. This became exhausting, distressing and things did not get any better. Then I read an analogy of what I was doing ....."My child was standing on train tracks with a train approaching her fast, the horns and lights were flashing madly to get off. Just as she is about to get hit I throw myself in front of her, pushing her off the tracks and get myself totally smashed. She is perfectly fine and the next day she returns to the same tracks, waiting again for that train. Again I come hobbling along and repeat the same actions'. This is what i do. We save and save and save until one day we realise that we are helping them to do exactly what they want to do. I know it is such a difficult time and I am waiting to exhale after a rotten Christmas period. But I am off those tracks, my health, my happiness and heart can't take being run over by the another train.

 

[ColleenB]

I'm sorry I didn't reply to you all when you took so much time to reply and really shared so much.

I do appreciate it and have taken all your words to heart.

We are back home and both boys started university classes today. They decided to even take two courses together. This is either going to be good or very bad. If our older son starts down his road of not going to classes, etc... I'm scared his younger brother will either cover for him or follow him.

Why am I so pessimistic? I want to beleive my son is changing and he will be ok. This is the third years he will have started university, and his fourth try. He only has one semester under his belt and it was the first one, three years ago before the drug use started.

I am trying to be optimistic. I really am.

Thanks for being here..... C

 

[New Leaf]

Why am I so pessimistic? I want to beleive my son is changing and he will be ok. This is the third years he will have started university, and his fourth try. He only has one semester under his belt and it was the first one, three years ago before the drug use started.

I am trying to be optimistic. I really am.

Hi Colleen, people can change, and do, I did. I am hoping the trip, and time spent with family, helped your boy to see there are better things in life. Only time will tell. My heart goes out to you, and I am hoping for the best for both of your boys. Who knows, maybe they will help one another make the right choices. Fingers and toes crossed! Worrying does nothing for you or your health. Give it to your higher power, and breathe. Kids got to learn, somehow. Best wishes and prayers for you and your boys. {{{HUGS}}} leafy