Power struggles

WiseChoices

Well-Known Member
Wise

I am sorry that you don't have the relationship with your daughter that you want to have but maybe that is how it is right now. It doesn't mean that it will always be this way.

I always fantasized about having a daughter and how fun it would be to share clothes and make up etc. One of my good friends has a daughter and was so thrilled when she was born. Her daughter has always been very nasty to her as long as I can remember. In fact when my friend was in the hospital for a week days to have a 5 pound tumor on her ovary removed that could have been cancerous, her daughter didn't even come to visit her. That is only one of many very hurtful things that her daughter has done. My friend loves her daughter so much and is so good to her and begs for her love and companionship. The girl is very smart and is working on her masters and pays her own way and has always worked and been extremely responsible. I don't get the reason why she treats her mother like that. I just don't get it.

I do think as your daughter matures she will become close to you again. If she once was then it will happen again. If it were me, I'd give her the space she is saying she wants. Don't blame yourself. It is probably just something she is going through and it will probably take WAY longer than you think it should. She is very young.
Thank you, RN, that was very kind and supportive and balm to my wounded heart. Yes, things may change in the future. Who knows?

The experience of your friend is very painful! My children show me that they don't value me right now and all I can do is back away and take care of me.

I am not doing elaborate Christmas gifts this year when Mother's day I got nothing from son and a Snapchat card from daughter. For birthdays, son sends me a FB message. These one-sided relationships (with adults!) no longer work for me. Having a properly functioning healthy relationship of give and take with me is a privilege.
 

Beta

Well-Known Member
Wise, I think you're handling all of this amazingly well and appropriately. I understand the pain of holidays/birthdays that are forgotten or barely acknowledged. I'm sorry.
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
trying to figure out why and what's going on .I think I feel if I had the "truth" I could accept it better.
I guess I believe there are absolute truths, but I believe these are very, very few, existing more in the scientific and spiritual realms but not in the psychiatric. There are consensus ideas in psychiatry and psychology but that I am aware of no "truths" as you speak of.
I think if I knew that her abandonment issues (if that's what it was ) were because she has xyz mental illness , I could understand how she did this 180 on me.
You seem to be searching here for direct causation where some X factor (or Y or Z factors) are responsible for her distress apart from you. I think it is hurtful and harmful both to think in terms of "causing" and to search for culpable parties. Your daughter (and you and I and everybody that I know) was raised in a family, in an environment and a culture, with a genetic and ancestral background.

We are learning more and more through the emerging field of epigenetics that while genes are not intrinsically modified by experience they are modified by the experience of forbearers. For example, even grandchildren of holocaust survivors who never met their grandparents carry markers in their genes...that affect them, their behavior, their emotions, their choices, their attitudes about life. The same is true for descendants of slaves, descendants of native people. Both sides of devastating conflicts generations later are affected by forces that are completely independent of their direct lived experience and genetic inheritance.

We know only a minuscule part of how we are shaped, what "causes" us to be who we are. How will one mother come to grips with "cause?"

This all sounds like a witch hunt to me.
I think I want to make triple sure that I am being mentally healthy and not contributing to someone else's suffering.
Personally, I think this is an ongoing conversation that I aspire to have as long as I am alive. I don't think there is a single yes or no answer. Because every hour I live I am subject to distortions that are self-serving and defensive. This is a practice of accountability and acceptance.

It seems to me that you may be holding yourself accountable without enough in the acceptance part. Life happens. We need to let go. So that the cleansing and purifying waters of renewal and redemption can wash over us. Is this not the wisdom of spirituality of which the 12 steps are an example?
Am punishing her for not being interested in me (or my interpretation of that) by solely focusing on me
I think this is a powerful question.

You don't ask me but I will offer my sense. I think your focus on yourself, your goals, your needs, your boundaries, your emotional safety is laudable and entirely healthy. I think when we engage in tit for tat, or withholding, it is less so.
I am not doing elaborate Christmas gifts this year when Mother's day I got nothing
Your children are trying to establish themselves as adults psychologically, which requires them to individuate, to separate. There are powerful reasons they would not demonstrate generosity and selflessness with respect to you. I think you have the option of seeing the gifts from this perspective and to stay open to your own loving generosity and selfless love.
These one-sided relationships (with adults!) no longer work for me. Having a properly functioning healthy relationship of give and take with me is a privilege.
A give and take relationship is aspirational, with our children. My son is a decade older than is your daughter. I am seeing glimmers of reciprocity and compassion. I choose to focus on my hope. But all of us choose differently.

Which is not to say I don't react with anger, pain and judgement. After I have nursed my wounds I choose to act from the belief that my son and I will have one day the kind of relationship I seek. We may or we may not. Nobody can tell me we won't. I choose to define myself by my hope.
 
Last edited:

JayPee

Sending good vibes...
Reading your posts reinforces that I made the right decisions not taking my adult sons in after the divorce. I dealt with much of what you mentioned Wise (but not the cutting) and it's exhausting.

The constant battle to try to get both adults sons to step up and be adults was a full-time job and never amounted to anything. All my begging, pleading, manipulating to try to get them motivated resulted in nothing for me.

The only person who finally changed was ME. It sure took me a long time! At first my changes felt selfish because I wasn't used to putting myself first, as we mothers often do. Even now, (though haven't spoken to Older Son in a few months) they are not happy with me. They were so used to me tolerating and giving in that they see me as the worst mother ever. It took a lot to convince myself they weren't right.

I do believe as someone mentioned, for your sanity, you need to set boundaries and ask yourself "what you want and need". Take care of you. Even if your daughter is done college in a few months that can be a very very long time to have to deal with behavior.

Is there any possibility she could go live with the friend and mother who smoke pot? Maybe she needs to see that grass is not always greener on the other side of the fence.
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
to get both adults sons to step up and be adults was a full-time job and never amounted to anything. All my begging, pleading, manipulating to try to get them motivated resulted in nothing
This is exactly my experience.

I did kick out my son for a number of years. At least 3, in one stretch. And in the last 4 or 5 years I would guess he has lived with me or in a property I own maybe a third of the time.

I will say that not one thing I did worked, to get him to change or to conform to anything I wanted for him or myself.

But I will say two things.

I think that having the support of somebody who loves you, being accountable in a relationship, has an effect. I am seeing changes in my son over the years, the last couple in particular. He is more stable. Less reactive. Can show compassion and kindness. He is less governed by his wacky beliefs and does not impose them on me nearly as much. Say 95 percent less.

I believe that being closer to me and to how I live has a moderating effect. I think I can act to channel him in certain ways. I can't control what he does or how he does it. I can't motivate him or make him want what I want. But by my presence in his life I think I can make a floor. And when he is away from me, he has fallen and fallen. Some of this may never be recouped. I don't think I was wrong to push him out. I don't see how he would have developed, otherwise. But I am seeing there is a middle ground. But it's tough for sure.

My son is ill. Through denial I was able to tolerate his being homeless and not taking his medication. But I have to face that by having him live near me, I can pull for him to take care of his health, and to face the reality of his illness. Instead of both of us with our heads in the sand.

There is no right or wrong thing to do. There is no one thing that works. There are costs each way you look at it. I think that it even can change day to day. How many times here have I posted threads, "I kicked my son out?" Many, many times.

I am like JP. I can't take it anymore. But I am like Wise, too. And I believe that it is worth it. There is no illusion anymore that I can change anything. But I choose to be in relationship with my son where we both feel I am present in his life.
 

WiseChoices

Well-Known Member
Reading your posts reinforces that I made the right decisions not taking my adult sons in after the divorce. I dealt with much of what you mentioned Wise (but not the cutting) and it's exhausting.

The constant battle to try to get both adults sons to step up and be adults was a full-time job and never amounted to anything. All my begging, pleading, manipulating to try to get them motivated resulted in nothing for me.

The only person who finally changed was ME. It sure took me a long time! At first my changes felt selfish because I wasn't used to putting myself first, as we mothers often do. Even now, (though haven't spoken to Older Son in a few months) they are not happy with me. They were so used to me tolerating and giving in that they see me as the worst mother ever. It took a lot to convince myself they weren't right.

I do believe as someone mentioned, for your sanity, you need to set boundaries and ask yourself "what you want and need". Take care of you. Even if your daughter is done college in a few months that can be a very very long time to have to deal with behavior.

Is there any possibility she could go live with the friend and mother who smoke pot? Maybe she needs to see that grass is not always greener on the other side of the fence.
I was thinking about her living with her friends. But I don't think it's possible because the family of the friend (a Mom , a Dad and 2 girls) had to move in with the Mom's parents and the brother to the Mom lives there , too. It's a 3BR 1 BTH house, so they don't have space.
 

JayPee

Sending good vibes...
Copa

You are a better person than me. I wish that scenario was possible for me that my presence over time would be the gentle guiding light of encouragement strength and hope for them to do and be better. However I tried that for years and all that happened was that I got taken advantage of. No one else worked but me. They’d sleep till all hours play video games disrespect my boundaries and beg for money. They promised every time that we’d had enough to find a job. Nothing changed.

In my heart I think that’s why I kept enabling thinking this next thing I’d do would catapult them into the right direction. Time and time again I was sorely disappointed.
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
I wish that scenario was possible for me that my presence over time would be the gentle guiding light of encouragement strength and hope for them to do and be better.
JP. The reality is that this scenario doesn't work for me either. I am not a better person. I am only without any good options.
No one else worked but me.
M and I do 99 percent. My son, less than 1 percent. There is constant conflict between M and I because my son plays us against each other, and we get so confused we turn on each other.

The way I'm thinking now, I'll just try to get through the biopsy my son has scheduled for next week, and then rethink this. No able-bodied and able-minded adult should be carried. And that's what is happening here.

My son is not deciding to do the right thing. He may never. What you are saying is true. It's one thing to be the guiding light. It's another thing when our kids use the illumination to take advantage and intermittently take a bat to the light bulb.

I can see my son gradually gaining in strength and finding his goodness. But he is not a bit changed in finding direction or living purposefully. I have stood this because I've gotten a lot of help from M. But the price has become too high. He is hysterical and angry all of the time. I don't have the confidence I can handle my son alone. I used to. I don't know if I can now.

I don't think what I wrote is wrong. A time may come for you where your children permit you to have more of a role in their lives.

I am between a rock and a hard place. If my son's illness has taken a turn for the worst, what can I do? Permit him to die a slow painful death in the street, instead of supporting him to stabilize and to take care of himself? And then, if he's still okay, G-d willing, do I help him stabilize so he can take the medicine that could save his life, or do I kick him out again?

I kicked out my son 8 years ago. Had I kept him here could I have saved his life? If I kept him here could I have prevented him from falling as he has? Could I still? Should I?

When I came to this site I believed that tough love could save my son. It didn't.

Some parents can close the door. I can't. I adopted an infant who'd already suffered what most adults have not experienced. I think I have some kind of responsibility here. At the same time I agree completely with you. I can't do it, either. I am between a rock and a hard place.
 
Last edited:

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
I think that having the support of somebody who loves you, being accountable in a relationship, has an effect.
Yes. A corrosive effect.
I believe that being closer to me and to how I live has a moderating effect. I think I can act to channel him in certain ways
This while true is the height of ridiculousness. There are big public infrastructure projects that change the course of rivers, say. And this takes resources beyond a single person. Beyond even a community. Either a corporation or a government. One person can't control or even effect another person in a meaningful way, if that person is hellbent with their own will. And even rivers return to their true path when there are storms. They just go right back to their age old place and patterns.

There is a reality in my life that my son is hellbent with his own will. This is normal. This is the way of life. But I have to find a way to protect myself. And I can't expect M to carry me or my son. It's not working.

I don't know what to do about the biopsy.

What I can't stand is M turning on me because my son is intolerable. But my choices are very few. I can let my son live as he wishes in my other property, and M moves out. But my son will not pay rent.

And he will also not leave without the police. That's what happened last year.
Do I call the police repeatedly again, to get him out? Do I wait until after the biopsy?

I woke up at 430 am. That's the second time this week. Monday or Tuesday I think it was I woke at 230 am.

This is not getting better. My son used up $750 in 12 days. How? And the expectation is that I or Miguel support him for the rest of the month. This is recurrent. I can't close my eyes to it. I know my son has to leave.

M gets mad at me. He says make one single decision and stick with it. When he says this I don't know what he's talking about. How do you make this kind of decision? And many times M has been the one to soften and to let my son back. And then I'm holding the bag.

I worry a lot about being all alone. It never bothered me that much before, but it does now. Because I am getting old. I feel the changes in my body and mind. I'm not the fearless and mobile person I once was. The thought of being all alone facing old age frightens me. I don't have much of a local support system or other family besides M. But I'm not the only person in the situation I find myself in. And it's changeable too. I have to find a way to deal.

Sorry to hijack your thread, Wise.
 
Last edited:

WiseChoices

Well-Known Member
That's not a problem at all, Copa. I am so sorry you are hurting this much .

I think you mentioned before that M is alcoholic / used to have a problem with it? If I remember that correctly, then he also has codependent tendencies .at least that is what I have observed over the years in the recovery rooms .That is why he softens at times . You flip flop the tough cop and the lenient cop roles .my husband and I do the same thing. It's hard. It makes everything harder .A united front is very important. I wonder whether M might be willing to attend Al-Anon for your son's sake (and his own well being)?

$750 in 12 days with no essentials like rent or food covered points to an addiction of some kind in my view .Have you asked him? How he thinks it's ok to live rent free when he had $750?

Fear will get me every single time. For me, it was so important to develop a relationship with a higher power because fear can only be replaced by faith. Aging does not scare me anymore because I take care of myself physically, emotionally, and spiritually on a consistent basis .I fall off the wagon for a day or two sometimes , but I pretty much am consistent . Weight lifting has had very beneficial mental aspects for me as well .What I am trying to say is : taking one day at a time , having faith that I will be ok and that everything will work out as it is supposed to, and allowing my HP to guide me every step of the way, life can be a wonderful adventure. I don't know where like will take me for the next 50 years but I know it will be good .

Sending you love and hope and courage .
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
I wonder whether M might be willing to attend Al-Anon for your son's sake (and his own well being)?
No. M hates AA and 12 steps. And he is Spanish speaking and there's no Spanish Speaking Al Anon in my community. I think M's codependent too. And while he has love for my son M is not his father, and his investment and responsibility is not like mine.
when he had $750?
He had $950. He says he has $250 left.
physically, emotionally, and spiritually on a consistent basis
Yes. I was reading a study just now. Even a moderate amount of high intensity interval exercise lowers the chance of Alzheimers 50 percent.
life can be a wonderful adventure. I don't know where like will take me for the next 50 years but I know it will be good .
What a wonderful outlook!
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
I think I have to tighten things up. I will let J, my son, decide. He will have to get a drug test, sign a release to involve me with his doctor, and get a payee, if he won't or can't manage his money. We are enabling him. It's clear as a bell. The choices are his. Not mine. I will give him back the $200 he gave me for rent, and he can move on. If he won't I need to call the police. The only other thing I can think of is possibly to go away with him for a little while, away from M, and see if there's some way to reach him. Thank you.
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
It's settled. My son is returning to the big metro a couple hours from me, to be homeless again. He's leaving today (he says.) I told him I would return the rent money he paid to me (I pressured him) if he gets on the train, so I know he won't squat in my yard. I am calmer now. Bud sad. And a little scared. But I coped before, I can cope again.

Thank you ladies.
 

Blindsided

Face the Sun
On the way home from the gym I remembered that she has started cutting three times. And every single time I was away in Europe. I had devoted years to her prior to that first trip. She had been sick with depression. I took her to 3 different states on vacations , we had Saturday fun days with activities. I learned, slowly, to just be present and hold space for her rather than trying to change how she felt. It was difficult but I was her person and I wanted to be .

When she went to school, I wanted a break , I felt I could have a little breathing room for myself now that she was going to be busy with her adult life. I needed to break through fears of my own, like flying, like not identifying as Mother so much anymore , finding who I used to be . And so I went on my first trip, solo. And it was right before that that she met that friend and discarded me . I am not saying she pulled away some which would be normal at her age. She emotionally disconnected from me. And I am wondering now whether it was abandonment she felt. Abandonment so deep she cut. Something happened with a young man at the same time and I thought she started cutting as a result of that. I was in Europe when she called and said he broke it off (they went on 3 dates) and that she had done something bad (her words). By the time I got back 3 weeks later not only was she cutting up and down her arms , she had met a friend who had a history of it and has scars all over his body. She was glamorizing cutting.

She was stopped cutting for months before this last trip and she started again in my absence. It is clearly related to my leaving.

Is this consistent with borderline personality disorder?
So, you think her cutting is your fault for leaving? If we can find blame, maybe we can change it? Been there, done that. Truth is we dont know their feelings or have the ability to change them. Can you communicate logically?

My daughter has had body dysmorphia since her teenage years. I suspect she now is bolemic, which in addition to alcohol is destroying her body. She looked for love from men in all the wrong places. She is abusive. Now, she lacks empathy. She has every trait of Borderline (BPD), but she wont get help. I read a lot about how that diagnosis is missed or confused with bipolar. They are treated differently. I have also learned that DBT shows promise. We cant diagnose, but I can say this - I can only change the way I react to my daughters behaviors, my daughter must be handled with objectivity, not emotions, and that knowledge is handy in all my relationships.

I am so sorry. This must be horrific for you. All I can add is to revisit the article on detachment that has helped me. I read the article on a regular basis.

Love and light.
 

WiseChoices

Well-Known Member
It's settled. My son is returning to the big metro a couple hours from me, to be homeless again. He's leaving today (he says.) I told him I would return the rent money he paid to me (I pressured him) if he gets on the train, so I know he won't squat in my yard. I am calmer now. Bud sad. And a little scared. But I coped before, I can cope again.

Thank you ladies.
Copa, I admire your strength! It has got to be so very scary to send your son to be homeless. It's very sad. It sounds like you have tried everything. I wish our young people could function . Sending love .
 

WiseChoices

Well-Known Member
So, you think her cutting is your fault for leaving? If we can find blame, maybe we can change it? Been there, done that. Truth is we dont know their feelings or have the ability to change them. Can you communicate logically?

My daughter has had body dysmorphia since her teenage years. I suspect she now is bolemic, which in addition to alcohol is destroying her body. She looked for love from men in all the wrong places. She is abusive. Now, she lacks empathy. She has every trait of Borderline (Borderline (BPD)), but she wont get help. I read a lot about how that diagnosis is missed or confused with bipolar. They are treated differently. I have also learned that DBT shows promise. We cant diagnose, but I can say this - I can only change the way I react to my daughters behaviors, my daughter must be handled with objectivity, not emotions, and that knowledge is handy in all my relationships.

I am so sorry. This must be horrific for you. All I can add is to revisit the article on detachment that has helped me. I read the article on a regular basis.

Love and light.
No, I don't think it's my fault for leaving. I just think there is a connection between my absence and her inability to cope. Each time she has pulled far away from me into scary territory. She is clearly having abandonment issues .
 

Beta

Well-Known Member
Copa, I've read through your posts and caught up a bit. I have nothing to offer but to say I'm sorry for the pain you're experiencing. You are being pulled in two different directions, and either one is rock or a hard place. The love you have for your son comes through so clearly. You are a good mom. I admire you.
 

Copabanana

Well-Known Member
Each time she has pulled far away from me into scary territory. She is clearly having abandonment issues .
Or could it be manipulation, anger, and control? Why does it have to be abandonment? If there's one thing our kids know, Wise, is that we've always been there for them. And always will be, at least until death, and after, I think. I think your daughter is having trouble not from abandonment but that she does not want to let you go. I think focusing on abandonment might steer you the wrong way.
 

BusynMember1

Well-Known Member
If she cut when you left, she cuts at other times too. Kay used to blame us for her cutting until we saw her with her socks off and were shocked to see cut scars all over her soles. She then admitted she cuts often, usually where nobody can see. She only cut on her wrists when she wanted to make us feel as if it were because of our wrongs to her. If not, she cut where the cuts did not show.

Normal people with no mental illnesses do not cut ever even if SOME sick people BRAG about the cutting. Nobody makes anyone cut and only disturbed people do it.

We can't force our kids to treat their mental health issues. Cutting is not our faults, but many disturbed kids do use cutting for drama and to make us feel guilty rather than acknowledging that they cut a lot and often and that it is not because of us.

Blessings to all of us who need it!
 
Top