Really scared

[BusynMember]

Ok. I respect that.

But I would. In the case if this young man, nobody can know if there is a weapon or a plan. And his comment about the dead body is chilling. He needs help. But where???

Take care and I am truly sorry you saw that. That is but one of a hundred reasons why even our disabled and mentally ill adults kids NEED to learn how to behave in public. I wish they had better services.

 

[Deni D]

It doesn’t matter whether you live in Podduck, North Dakota or in New York City. If you call the police and report what seems to them to be an imminent threat to a police officer they will respond with something that could very well be lethal. Smithmom, I get goosebumps imagining what you have gone through, even though I haven’t. I won’t go into details of my knowledge but I am, with experience, able to say a typical police department is unaware of mental illness verses real criminal behavior. I believe a mental health crises unit knows and is trained to deal with the differences.

 

[BusynMember]

Never heard of a mental health unit you can call for an erratic person 24/7. Thats a good idea in theory but most places have no such thing. Plus no mental health team will try to handle anyone who goes off the rails. Even if it is because of mental illness. They know no magic words to calm an agitated ill person. They need force too.

I have been a mental health patient from age 23 to now and have far less faith in them than others may. I dont trust their diagnoses or solutions and if you are a patient in a hospital and tick off Dr. Feelgood or act out you will find yourself chained to a bed in a padded locked room and possibly given a shot to calm you down. I have seen it and heard the screaming patients. This was usually because a mentally ill inpatient got into a fight, swore or threatened somebody or once when a patient cut herself with a smuggled in razor (theoretically you cant have a razor or even wear your shoes in a psychiatric hospital). The ward was locked. Im sure to many it felt like prison.

Psychiatry is an inexact science and in flux. They cant tell who is dangerous or who is in mental health crisis or both. And most dont care. Talk about scary. These patients in that hospital were all mentally ill but Staff called security guards to restrain and lock them up if they got into fights due to mental illness. And this was an excellent progresdive university hospital which is why I picked it.


They lock kids up too. Or they used to. In some residential treatment hospitals. I saw that too when I had to visit my foster son. That wasnt so long ago and shocked me. I digress....

These days luckily insurance doesnt pay for more than a few days in a psychiatric hospital, but its not the haven some people think.

My story is I admitted myself many years ago due to depression. I was pregnant and wanted to know what was wrong with me, why I was always so depressed. It was debilitating for me on top of severe anxietya and panic. Now I had a positive experience there and never was even close to being locked up. Staff liked me and were very kind to me. But I saw and heard the Quiet Rooms, as they were called. Everyone did.

The fact is, even mental health workers dont really understand mental illness. Its a mystery. And yes even a psychiatric patient who acts out because of mental illness will be punished by mental health professionals, at least inpatient. Sometimes they were discharged for violence, even though their mental illness caused it. But often they got the padded cell. Yes, it exists for real.

The mentally ill are expected to behave, in hospitals and in public. Now if they are psychotic and just babbling nonsense they wont get into trouble. But if they look threatening and start acting out they will be stopped forcefully if necessary just like anyone else. It doesnt matter that they are mentally ill

The cops, as the forced U.S. mental health workers, have a hard job. They have no help and have to quiet those who seem dangerous. Usually my experience has been that people who seem ill are taken to hospitals. But if somebody is acting out that person will not be allowed to be around other people even if they are taken to that hospital. The hospital will isolate them. Those Quiet Rooms are also referred to as Isolation. Padded walls. No windows to see out...just one little one facung Staff so the nurses can check on you. Sometimes a bed. Sometimes nothing. Terrifying I would think.

Right or wrong, nobody is allowed to act out in a way that looks threatening in the U.S. Nobody. There is no legal excuse unless you go to trial and are found of unsound mind. Then you are sent to one of the hospitals rather than prison. Think Andrea Yates. Is she not being punished for being mentally ill? Or is society being protected because her illness makes her dangerous? Both, I think.

I hope psychiatric hospitals are more understanding since I signed myself in so long ago. Violence was punished back then to protect the other patients... and I have heard second hand that this Quiet Room bit is still going on. In 2018.

Gives me the chills to remember. And I was treated well because I was not psychotic, was compliant, and got better. But I was scared at first when patients fought and got locked up. After ten weeks as a self admitted patient (back then your insurance let you stay as long as you needed) I was actually used to the people in the Quiet Room screaming and it stopped bothering me that much. I guess the workers became desensitized. It was happening to me. (Shudder)

I was 23 years old and had two more short stays in different hospitals due to bad medication reactions. Each time there were people taken to the Quiet Room. All the hospitals did it. Did they do it often? Usually for violence. But sometimes for mouthing off. Barbaric.

I am not sure that the mental health community has much of an idea how to help those who are mentally ill and off the rails. Compliant patients, they can help (some of them) but out of control patients who wont cooperate and act out...they are not allowed to treat anyone against his will. So they cant do much. How can cops know what to do if mental health professionals dont?

I blame sooooooo many for this mess. And it is a mess. Thats why so many mentally ill people are on the streets and in jail. Nobody knows what to really do.

 

[Deni D]

Colorado has a crises hot line, the hot line you get for Denver is the same one, I found it by googling "Colorado crises hot line". I suggested the hot line instead of the police for a few reasons.
First the police will not have someone taken to a hospital unless they are obviously psychotic.
Second for the most part the police are not trained to talk someone down, they have to get dangerous situations under control quickly, that's their job.
Third when someone seems reasonable in the few minutes the police talk to them they will do nothing other than to possibly tell them they have a civil matter to go deal with depending on the complaint, that's their job.
Forth A crises worker on the other hand can talk things through further and offer help in various ways to someone who is not thinking or acting right. If a family member calls they will reach out to the person in crises. And they will call the police if need be.

 

[BusynMember]

The crises line upon hearing homicidal threats will call the police. Period. Most are not that well trained trained volunteers. Some have certain hours of training for normal mental health concerns. Not homicide or suicide. I want everyone to know this. Mom cant call either. He would have to and not mention homicide or suicide or here come the cops. There are some calls they must not take. Some they must report.

Ive been a patient from 23 to 65. I know there are things you cant say or they will get the cops. You obviously arent a serious psychiatric patient. Lucky for you but I know how it works.

Two things you cant tell anyone is that you are sucidal or homicidal or you will find the police at your door even if you are blowing off steam. Yes, I have had this happen when I hadnt even mentioned suicide but "they" were concerned. And I never mentioned homicide ever or alluded to that. They are cautious. They have a lot to lose if they talk to somebody who later kills themself or others. There is accountability all around.

There is no good way for this kid to be talked down frim a homicidal threat. None. Nobody is trained to deal with homicidal threats. It all goes to the same place. I am not going to argue about what I know. If you want to keep the cops out never mention homicide or suicide to any mental health worker. If you dont believe me....you have been warned. This includes crisis workers. That is not the sort of crises they handle.

Now once the cops are there, they may let it go. Theyay take tje person to the hospital. They may go to jail. Thats a crapshoot. I had the cops come twice to do a well check and they just made pleasant talk and left. But I never threatened anyone.

Good luck to all. Be careful

 

[Elsi]

Perhaps we should all wait and let Beta chime back in here before speculating further. This is a very scary situation with no easy answers. Beta knows her son best and is best equipped to know whether this indicates a pattern of saying shocking things to blow off steam, a potential psychotic break in need of immediate emergency intervention, or a true threat to someone else. I understand that there are a lot of potential scary outcomes and I am so sorry that some of you have had to go through those outcomes.

I am assuming by now that Beta has made her decision one way or another, and there have either been repercussions or not. I just want her to know we will support that decision and not second guess her, and that we will be here to support her with whatever comes next.

 

[BusynMember]

I was just talking in general for everyone. It is best to be informed especially if one is afraid of cops. I dont want anyone to be surprised or feel betrayed. Our mental health system is as flawed as possible. They work with the cops on many levels. Neither have the answers. Nobody does.

Mentally ill or not you need to learn to stay inside if you cant get control or it could seem threatening and somebody will call the cops. It is not acceptable to frighten people because you are mentally ill or high. And in those conditions, quiet people can become aggressive and hurt others. Drug abusers are often violent plus they are breaking the law causing a huge disturbance while high. They need to learn to at least stay inside if they use drugs that make others fear them or in my opinion they should be stopped like anyone else. I would probably be scared and call the cops if anyone was on the street acting loud and bizarre. Most people would. We have no idea if they are safe or not.

 

[Beta]

Update: My husband spoke with a crisis intervention agency in Denver yesterday, and they said that there are some police officers who are trained in mental health crisis intervention and to call the police and see if someone like that could intervene. My husband called the police station in the county where our son has been living. Long story short--without a definite location, they can't do anything. If they have a location, they can send a crisis intervention officer who would evaluate him on the spot and take him to a hospital if needed.

The police officer said we should contact our cell phone carrier and see if they could track his phone for a location. My husband was able to figure out how to do that with T-Mobile, and we saw he was somewhere in downtown Denver, but moving rapidly. So for some reason, he was downtown. The next thing I knew, however, I got a text from him which said, "You're tracking my phone?" So apparently, when someone is tracked, they get some sort of notification, which is totally dumb, because if you're trying to find someone and they don't want to be found, all they have to do is turn off their phone. Also, he's already paranoid and suspicious of us as it is, so this will probably make him even more suspicious. My husband called his phone to try to talk to him; I texted him several times and asked him to please call us so we could talk. His response was, "What about?" and he didn't call (no big surprise). So I don't know what to do from here, other than to keep pleading with him to call us and to consent to come to where we live, which he refuses to do so far. He is delusional and paranoid and I am very afraid for him.

Wish I had some encouraging report to give, but this is all I have for now. I feel like I'm waiting on a timebomb to go off any moment. This is like a nightmare that just never ends.

 

[Elsi]

I was just talking in general for everyone. It is best to be informed especially if one is afraid of cops. I dont want anyone to be surprised or feel betrayed. Our mental health system is as flawed as possible. They work with the cops on many levels. Neither have the answers. Nobody does.

Mentally ill or not you need to learn to stay inside if you cant get control or it could seem threatening and somebody will call the cops. It is not acceptable to frighten people because you are mentally ill or high. And in those conditions, quiet people can become aggressive and hurt others. Drug abusers are often violent plus they are breaking the law causing a huge disturbance while high. They need to learn to at least stay inside if they use drugs that make others fear them or in my opinion they should be stopped like anyone else. I would probably be scared and call the cops if anyone was on the street acting loud and bizarre. Most people would. We have no idea if they are safe or not.

I don't disagree. I know you and others have a lot of valid experience in this area. I just want to hear from Beta where things are and what she needs at this point for her specific situation.

 

[BusynMember]

Beta, it sounds like he is still okay.

Hang in there!

 

[Beta]

Thank you, by the way, for all the responses to my post. Also by the way, I work for a psychiatrist and I contacted him and talked with him about what J had said. He too thought he was in danger and that we needed to intervene, but that we needed to be careful about how we contact the police because we need to avoid the possibility of his just being picked up and thrown in jail, which would do absolutely no good.

 

[Elsi]

Hi Beta I was hoping you'd chime back in with an update! It sounds like you are reaching out to all the available resources. I'm sorry there hasn't been a resolution yet, but as SWOT says it sounds like he is OK for now. Is he on your T-Mobile account or does he have his own cell phone plan? I agree that sounds really dumb to alert in a situation like this, but on the other hand as someone who has experience DV and stalking I can understand why they may feel those being tracked have a right to know. It makes it harder for you, though. Did you end up turning tracking off then?

I wish I had a great answer to give you. Let us know how it unfolds and how you're doing. Sending hugs and prayers for you and your son.

 

[Copabanana]

Hi Beta

I am just seeing your new post. That sounds like wise counsel you got from the psychiatrist whose thinking seems to be focused upon the well-being of your child, and seeing the situation from those eyes. As well as from your own. I think that there is every reason for you to tell police what protects your child; to frame this in a way that gets intervention for him, and treatment, without exposing him to potential for great harm. You are his mother, not a mandated reporter. I think the kind of judicious action the psychiatrist is pointing to protects everybody.

 

[RN0441]

Yes Beta

Please keep us updated.

We truly do care and are here for you.

 

[Smithmom]

My town has a 24/ 7 police crisis team of counselors who will respond when called by an officer. They are not a first call. They do not respond to a potentially violent situation which would put them in harm's way. They may respond in the background perhaps. But typically the police would see such a person to the ER. They do respond routinely to domestic situations. They are there to provide guidance to the police as needed. They also have office hours people who will help victims through the process of filing charges and then refer them to court victim's advocates. I'm sure they train our police dept re responding to the mentally ill.

My police dept also has a sub abuse program and sub abuse counselors who work with those who have minor drug charges as an alternative to incarceration. Unfortunately they don't respond to emergency situations. I assume they also train officers.

How do I know all this about my local police dept? Because my son went through most all of these services at one time or another.

Based on research I have read what Deni says is correct. That is, that most police depts don't train officers to deal with the mentally ill or developmentally disabled. But statistically that is also changing. There are online courses for example which are not as long and expensive as full training. After all, it really is a matter of budget. Training requires substitutes, trainers, possibly travel, etc. I'd add that the same applies to corrections officers. After all, the stats on inmates who are mentally ill are horrifying.

Beta, none of this is easy. I can only pray for you, your son and family. How fortunate you are to work for a psychiatrist.

 

[Smithmom]

About the phone trace, just some questions or thoughts... Obviously as Elsi says a victim of stalking has a right to know they're being tracked. Basic safety.

But I wonder if the police are the ones doing the tracing is it really appropriate? Eg if a kidnap victim is being traced by phone is it good for the kidnapper to know that? I wonder if this isn't some lawsuit prevention measure dictated by corporate lawyers? Can't sue the phone co for invasion of privacy if they told you you were being traced. Just doesn't make sense to me. Seems like the police now have to think twice before tracking a phone.

 

[BusynMember]

Smithsmom, you are lucky to have all that support. We dont. Big cities do. Most towns dont.

The police are learning but it is pathetic that in most places the mentally ill are in jail rather than in suitable hospitals. The hospitals were shut down in the 60s. Made a bad situation worse.

Where I live and in so many smaller cities and towns there are a lack of mental health workers in general. It is very horrible. We are actually like minded in this.

The police should not be forced to do mental healthcare and mental healthcare services need to improve. Psychologists should handle these emergencies...highly educated workers, not crises workers or mental health aids. They dont have the education th handle the really severely mentally ill.

Your town sounds great. Kudos! I bow to those more progressive cities and towns.

 

[Smithmom]

FYI on subject of tracing and elderly /developmentally disabled... My police dept provides free wrist bracelets to developmentally disabled. New batteries frequently as well. They don't advertise this. But if your adult/ child is prone to wandering they will come to you and put the bracelet on. They then can track a lost person easily. Saves lives and saves them hunts for missing people. A win win. They also check that its working every time they do batteries. A distinct upgrade from the annual missing child kits they do for every student in schools annually.

I don't know this from personal experience but from a friend who has used this for years. From the time her questionable x dropped their developmentally disabled son in front of a school. Apparently couldn't be bothered to get out of his car. Luckily aide saw child wandering around school yard.

 

[Copabanana]

"You're tracking my phone?"

This is a pretty together and appropriate response, to my way of speaking.

My son is 29 (almost 30) biracial, adopted, and self-identifies as bipolar. He is also homeless and in a Metro a few hours from me. He is also angry and does not want contact with me, because I won't let him come home. Like you. I am in agony from worry and heartache.

As much as the impulse is to try to solve this, to do something to help him, what you do for YOU is as important. YOU and I have to survive this. Finding ways to respond to our own feelings, the grief, guilt, anxiety, fear, etc. that honors and nurtures us is crucial. I do not know how to do this but I know I have to find a way.

 

[Triedntrue]

Smithmom" They are there to provide guidance to the police as needed. They also have office hours people who will help victims through the process of filing charges and then refer them to court victim's advocates. I'm sure they train our police dept re responding to the mentally ill"

I had a different situation where my son was taken from one jurisdiction to another and the first officer was trained and handled things very well and got my son in without incident. The second officer came into the hospital and handled things very badly and my son flipped out completely and they filed charges on him at the hospital and when he was released he went straight into police custody. The second officer seems to be carrying out a vendetta. If the first officer had stayed i think we would have had a different result. The point being it is difficult to say what will happen when police are involved. Just to be clear we filed a 302 to put him in hospital which requires that you feel he is a danger to himself or others and they took the police with them. I did not call police. Praying for a good result for you.