The Cycle

Discussion in 'Parent Emeritus' started by New Leaf, Nov 20, 2019.

  1. BusynMember

    BusynMember Well-Known Member

    Raging is scary and can lead to violence. In a rage,, Kay took a glass vase (foggy memory here.. think it was a vase) and threw it hard at my son and it crashed and splintered against the wall a few inches from his head. Her bad aim was the reason it seemed she missed. I think she meant to hit him. Her eyes had gone black.. hard to explain.

    We had to do something. We did.

    She has never been back in our home again. We did buy her places to stay and helped her with rent when we had to sell what we bought. But she is not allowed home. We matter too, not just Kay.

    I believe some kids are so damaged, entrenched in anger and hate, that they have no desire to do better. They are punishing us, themselves, the world. Maybe some can't do better as early trauma can change the brain. Who knows? Nobody. I often wonder how much is brain damage from trauma/mental illness.

    I think you did what you had to do. You have yourself, a widow alone, and two other kids to keep safe. It is a shame that it came to this, but he is dangerous.

    Prayers and love.
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  2. RN0441

    RN0441 100% better than I was but not at 100% yet


    What you described is not the kind of person I would want in my home/want to live with.

    I'm sure you probably even sugar coated it a bit.

    Nope. Some people insist on learning things the hard way.

    You did the right thing and it doesn't mean that you don't love him.
  3. Lil

    Lil Well-Known Member

    Oh Leafy, I'm so sorry.

    My son raged. I was never afraid of violence toward myself, but watching him slam his fists into doors and walls until they bled, hearing him scream and just be so out of control - it was terrifying.

    You deserve peace. You deserve respect and love in your home.

    You've done the right thing.

    I hope he learns and grows and makes choices that enable him to come into a peaceful loving home again. But if he does not, do not blame yourself. You tried.

    On a different subject, have you seen Rain? I keep thinking about her leg and your description and hoping she is, physically, better now.

  4. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    I have been watching the impeachment hearings. I looked up Fiona Hill, and found this quote attributed to her about diplomacy and foreign relations.

    I can't figure out how to kill them without committing suicide, so now I have to find a way to live with them.

    Can you believe that I thought it pertained to my relationship with my son? I don't want to kill him, but I don't know how to live with him, and can't live without him either.

    What brings all of us here is that our children either have become our enemies or we are trying to defeat something in them or about their lives that we find to be incompatible or that is incompatible with the world as we know it.

    But the thing neither New Leaf nor any one of us can do, is to kill off the part of ourselves that keeps attached, either from attachment or responsibility or love.
    This is a child. All he knows is what he's lived. Children don't have any other choice but to build their own humanity based upon what they experience, what they see, modeled by the adults upon whom they depend. His own personhood he has not yet discovered. He is aping his father, his uncles, his grandfathers.

    What you've given him New Leaf for the first time in his life, is a choice point, to become himself. What he is displaying now is behaviors, not essence. It's no more than monkey see, monkey do. But he needs to know deeply and surely that it's not acceptable. He did not pay attention in your house. Because he's internalized a system of values of brute power and violence. And it's this value system that has betrayed him. He now has the opportunity to begin to learn another value system, and the behavior that goes with it.

    I hope there is the possibility of some kind of family therapy with you and him together.
  5. BusynMember

    BusynMember Well-Known Member

    I wonder. Without knowing

    Has anyone read "A Child Called It," about and by David Pelzer? This man was severely physically abused, emotionally tortured, his sick mother tried to kill him by making him drink bleach and eat feces and vomit, and she starved him. His father did not help him, in fact he left. And the father was a fireman. The other boys did nothing to help out of fear of abuse turning on them. To this day the men are distant and the oldest claims Dave exaggerated

    But another brother wrote his own story because after Dave was finally removed at age 12, this other brother became his mother's victim.

    Dave wrote several books.

    He knew nothing but severe abuse and betrayal by his family and other people who suspected like but did nothing to help, social workers and teachers.

    Dave was not violent and hurt nobody. In foster care he was not a criminal. He joined the military, married and had a son. He chose never to spank his son. His life has been difficult but NOT criminal. Never was.

    So I think about Kay. She saw no violence, heard very little arguing, ate well, was fussed over and loved and did not act that different from Leafs grandson. She was adopted but we were able to get her very young. Is that two months in an orphanage worse than Dave's 12 years of torture?

    It puzzled me. I have no answers. There ARE no logical answers other than maybe bad DNA? Maybe?

    David Pelzer certainly had mental illness in his mother and probably other family members.

    Our childhoods may follow us or haunt us or make us happier but in no way does a bad childhood or trauma kill the soul of every single child. Nor does a good childhood ensure a stable, thoughtful, non violent adult.

    Kay was violent at times! Scary! Verbally and physically violent. She stole and used drugs. She never saw this from us. Our house was calm, quiet, clean, organized and full of soft voices and love. Plus we worked hard. Kay picked up none of that.

    I now stop figuring out why. Every answer is a guess or a theory. We really don't know. Not even therapists know. We are all guessing, using theories. Drove me crazy at times when I used to try to figure it out. Or when a therapist said something that I just knew was not the case. My therapy now is about me and how I can be nicer to myself, not about why Kay is the way Kay is.

    NOBODY KNOWS! It doesn't matter anymore. It just is.

    Leafy, I hope the other two kids are not like your oldest grandson. It does not have to be. Kids do not necessarily copy what they see and I will pray that the two younger ones heal and do well.

    You are an inspiring and wonderful lady and I admire you. I hope you appreciate your courage and goodness and I hope you see these admirable traits in yourself as well. God bless you. Thanks for being an inspiration.
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    Last edited: Nov 21, 2019
  6. Triedntrue

    Triedntrue Active Member

    I have felt this way for awhile and unless the reson provides a cure it doesn't do us much good. I know that when we have a correct diagnosis it provides us with medications that might help. What caused this kid to have this disorder and that kid not to is not easy to know. My brother and i grew up in same house and he smoked drank and did drugs (thankfully not anymore). I never did drugs smoked for about a week and drink a couple times a year. Neither was adopted. I am glad you have come to the realization that you have to think of yourself I am also trying to do that but it is a process.
  7. MissLulu

    MissLulu Active Member

    Thank you for writing this, Busy. My son has had no trauma. He has grown up in a stable household with two loving parents. He has two beautiful, well adjusted siblings. He has lived a relatively privileged life - good education, stable and comfortable housing, access to a wide variety of educational, sporting and cultural experiences and a stable and loving extended family - but it hasn't prevented him from being who he is. I am trying very hard to let go of 'why?'.
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  8. MissLulu

    MissLulu Active Member

    New Leaf, I just wanted to add to the voices of sympathy and empathy here. I am so sorry for what you are going through with your grandson. I can only imagine how hard this must be after all you have already been through. For what it's worth, I think you absolutely made the right decision.
  9. Copabanana

    Copabanana Well-Known Member

    I think that all of us have within us forces that shape us. Not necessarily even genetic. That too. But ancestral influences, that mark our genes, for example. Or prenatal or perinatal influences.

    But of course there has always been the idea of a "bad seed." A child who is beyond any redemption. Born bad.

    The thing is this: If I decide you, and you and you are bad. Beyond redemption. Hopeless cases. Ruined at 15. Or worse. Ruined at birth. Or ruined before birth. Without a chance. What kind of a world do I help create by this mindset? What do I do to myself?

    A hundred years ago and more in this society and Western Europe there was a movement that came out of academia and psychology and directed towards immigrants and blacks and colonized peoples. Of genetic inferiority. That whole groups of people were impossibly defective and lesser. That they were born that way. These attitudes were used to justify and rationalize discrimination and exploitation and segregation, and more.

    I for one, never want to adopt beliefs that anybody else is irredeemable. Because if I do that, I am the one who has lost myself.

    Here on this website where there is such pain and self-judgement, how do we help ourselves and each other by justifying our painful life stories by scapegoating our children? I feel rage at my own son. Perhaps I will come to the point where I have no more contact. But to believe or to insist that he (or anybody) was born irredeemable? No. Or to insist that he cannot or will not change? No.

    It's hard to know why things happen. Can we not call it a mystery instead of trying to find a guilty party? Especially, a child?
  10. MissLulu

    MissLulu Active Member

    I would hate to think anyone is irredeemable. My greatest wish is that my son will find his way through this to a better life. At times I feel hopeless, but I don't think I'll ever completely give up hope that he can lead a productive life.

    Personally, I'm trying to move on from blaming myself. For ages I was obsessed with trying to work out why (in the absence of any obvious trauma) my son behaves the way he does. Partially this was to absolve myself of guilt (and if I'm honest I haven't quite moved past this yet) but part of it was because I was certain that if I knew why then I would be able to help him. I thought 'why' was the key to 'fixing' him.

    Now I think the why doesn't matter so much - for my son at least. I understand that for some it might be important (e.g. if there is an undiagnosed medical condition that can be treated) but for my son I don't think we'll ever have a definitive answer. I just need to accept the situation for what it is and to deal with it as best I can.

    Copa, I'm sure you are right - there are many reasons people are the way they are. I am particularly interested in ancestral and prenatal influences. And I absolutely agree that no one is 'born bad'. Equally, it is not always a person's childhood or environment that has made them the way the are. As you say, sometimes it's just a mystery.
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  11. Triedntrue

    Triedntrue Active Member

    If i gave the impression that i thought our kids irredeemable i do not. Just like my brother pulled himself out of that world i believe our kids can. It is however up to them. I believe that if my son recognizes he has a problem and accepts treatment he will have a chance at a good life. However he has to make that decision. I love my son and i may not know why him but that does not change that he is the one who has to decide to change. I meant that we need to focus on our own happiness and health because it does not help them if we sacrifice ourselves.
  12. overcome mom

    overcome mom Member

    New leaf I am so sorry to hear of your troubles I know you are trying to do the right thing with regards to your grandchildren. I'm sure on some level they feel your love for them. I too have constantly tried to figure out what is wrong with my son... so many therapists, psychiatrist ,treatment centers, books etc. I feel like it is a combination of many things it not just one thing. As I grow older I do feel that a lot of our personality traits are genetic. That our personalities are strongly influenced by the chemicals in our brains, our wiring, our physical make up. I was watching the show Finding Your Roots, there was a person on there who had a relative that had been placed in an "Insane Asylum" and was given the diagnosis of lactation insanity. She had given birth and most likely had post partum depression. Now we know that a good part of the depression is caused by the changing hormones. People are now appalled that she was involuntarily locked up for years for this. I feel that in the future this is how society will look at a good portion of the people that we lock up and those with drug addiction. They will realize that on some level these people have a physiological reason they are the way they are. Hopefully then they can have so better treatment options. I think some of our children will figure out how to live a productive ,happy life and some never will. For me it is trying to be realistic and still have hope.
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  13. BusynMember

    BusynMember Well-Known Member

    We all want our kids and everyone's kids to do well. Mine is not, but *I* am doing better.

    I do feel some people are born with more challenges than others. I do not believe it is based on ethnicity at all.

    . Is anyone beyond redemption? in my opinion only if they want to be. This is not political to me.but is close to home. It is partly about my daughter.

    I remember being younger and refusing to see bad in anyone. When bad things happened to good people, such as a time when my good friend was raped, I couldn't understand it. In the worst way I was sorry I found out yet I was the one who was there for her.

    I saw evil in her victimizer. I had to accept that some people are bad. The young man was found guilty and went to prison and showed no remorse. His family blamed my friend and said she had asked for it. I cried.

    Later a neighbor's house was broken into and a drug addict shot at the homeowner. He missed and fled but again....I saw the bad in someone. It was not something that ever set well with me. I was brought up to believe that we are all God's children. But that we have free will.
    It is a fact that some people do better in life than others under identical circumstances. We are not the same.

    I am not saying anyone is hopeless, but in my opinion some are tougher from the get go and others are not as tough. Those who need help can get it. Some do and some don't. Why doesnt everyone with dark inclinations want desperately to get help and improve? Why?? These are the questions that always puzzled me and nobody ever answered me in a way that explained it.

    I know there have been people who were evil whose early lives were much better than David Pelzer's life. We have serial killers. We had..Hitler. Such terrible hearts. Why????? Why was Hitler able to do what he did or any serial killer? Why? How? What is in them that allows this behavior?

    I am not talking about our kids who hurt themselves more than they even hurt us. Or do they hurt us more? But our kids are not evil. Some are just.....not willing to do better, at least not right now. Why??? Theories, sure. But does anyone really know for sure?

    Everyone can do better. Hitler could have also. He could have decided NO!!! Why did he chose this path of such evil? Ted Bundy? Charles Manson? The young and tragic school shooters? Why did they not do better when people like David Pelzer did? Why?

    Anyone who is off the rails in thought can reach out to therapists, friends, family, clergy, the police and be stopped from doing evil. Get help too. Why don't some people get help?

    There are no answers as to why somebody decides "I will NOT do this anymore! I will be better!" and why others say "Life sucks, I won't try, I won't care." There is a reason why Ted Bundy said "I will lure young women to their deaths. I will not stop myself and tell somebody about my dark urges. I will do this even though I know I shouldn't." Why? At a young age most serial killers start killing animals. Nobody tells them to. Why? Not all were abused.

    Kay is not the only child adopted at two months old and she did not have a bad life. So why is she a trainwreck? Not every child adopted at two months old into a loving family is a disaster. But she is. Why? Prenatal trauma? Maybe. But not everyone with a mother who is a trainwreck during pregnancy is a mess of a person and vice versa. There are no answers.

    The reasons about behaviors are still often unknown. Theories are not facts..And my question is....does the reason even matter?

    Of course there is hope for anyone/everyone. But the person has to have something inside of him or her that wants to fight to be better. And not everyone seems to have this in them. I do not understand why not but I know it is true.

    We would have no long term criminals if everyone wanted to find a better path. Wouldn't that be nice? And our kids would at least try. Why do so many refuse to try? WHY?

    I no longer ask why. I no longer care why. I no longer have expectations. When I used to get excited because Kay promised to try, it devestated me when she did not. Killed my heart. I could not function after the letdown. So because I have to keep going and I can't force Kay to do better, I now let go of any expectations and live in the now. I accept NOW.

    I hope we all see great changes in our children. Some will. I do not think I will soon, if ever. I don't see the fight in Kay to do better nor any willingness to work hard and get help which she needs in order to do better.

    She wants her father and I to do it for her.

    Why? WHY?

    I don't know why. Nobody knows why. Can she do better? Sure. Will she do better?

    All I know is that right now she is not.

    Yesterday is history,
    Tomorrow is a mystery.
    We only have today.

    I love that little poem.

    Is it a poem?

    I have three kids. All raised the same. Two are very resilient. One is painfully hurts me. She is a lot how she is because she gives up and refuses to get professional help. She wants a Daddy and a Mommy to support her for life. Yet she mistreats us.

    Why why why why why???

    Only she can make her story happier.

    Anyway, heartfelt blessings to us all.
  14. BusynMember

    BusynMember Well-Known Member

    Oops. One last thing I would like to clarify.

    I am not very interested in politics and nothing I say should probably be inflated to horrible times in the world. I am as horrified as all about things such as segregation...and my family is black and Hispanic so all the more reason for me to find those things appalling.

    Thinking that some people, of all ethnicities, can have serious problems from early on and some may not ever resolve them is not why we have had atrocities against innocents. Those atrocities happened due to broadbased and evil beliefs about people who were minorities. I personally believe that no race, ethnicity or religious group should be persecuted. It is bonechilling that it happens. We are all equally good and valuable in God's eyes. I never ever insinuated otherwise nor would I. But some people of every stripe are not fitting in and following society's rules. One of them is my daughter. She has never been okay. It breaks my heart to remember that even very young something was off about my princess. And it still is.

    Thank you for letting me have a voice here. Have a blessed night to all.
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2019
  15. louise2350

    louise2350 Member

    My disconnected daughter has a drinking problem of that I know, but as far as drugs go- I know she did use them now and then in her teens. As far as the present goes, I don't know if she uses drugs - I hope not - her drinking is bad enough. When she lived with me, I never saw any violence in her towards us, thank God. She'd come home drunk and actually a few times tried to hurt herself - once she had a knife in her hand and tried to stab herself with my 9 year old daughter standing there and seeing this. I immediately jumped in and grabbed the knife from her hand. She had no memory of it when she got sober. My youngest would go around the house and hide all of our knives after that incident. When I replay that memory back in my mind, I realize this daughter could've stabbed me accidentally as I went and grabbed the knife from her. Who knows how this all could've turned out. I believe God was watching over us at the time. However, like I mentioned before I didn't see any violence in her only cruel, mean things she'd say to push my buttons. I just believe each person is different . Some children who were abused will never even spank their kids and others will repeat the abuse they had growing up. Hope things are getting better for you in your difficult situation.
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  16. louise2350

    louise2350 Member

    Busy: Since your daughter was adopted at 2 months, I'm sure her behavior isn't due to any abuse given to her as a baby befoe adoption. You raised her like you did your other children - it's not you that has caused her these problems.
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  17. Blindsided

    Blindsided Face the Sun

    I am so sorry for all of this, Leafy. You have certainly done enough to give your grands a better chance. I believe you are right to remove the grand that is keeping your home in chaos. It's not good for the other two, either. I honestly dont know how you do it. Suffice it to say, your Difficult Child grand is very manipulative. When he threatens you and others, it suggests he lacks empathy or the ability to have gratitude for the things you do provide. This is the only way I see you protecting your other grands and yourself.

    Of course you would want him with you if he was behaving, but he is not.

    I pray he gets to the right person to give him the mental health help he obviously needs, including behavioural therapy.

    I will be thinking of you. Blessings
  18. New Leaf

    New Leaf Well-Known Member

    Thank you Beta, it was and is a hard thing, but the right thing, for him and all of us. He needs to know his bullying is unacceptable.
    Thank you Tried. I am sorry you went through the same with your son. The rage is extremely frightening. It was as if he was demon possessed.

    Job Corps would be good. There is also a military type school. I don’t know what he will choose because he admitted in his evaluation ( I read it today) that he sells weed to support his own habit. That he smoked every day since 11 or 12. Geez.
    I thought so too about the toothbrush and chair, the switch in his attitude. It was obvious he was vying for control. Yes, he wanted to run the house. NOPE!

    That is my feeling exactly. He had no respect. How can I begin to help him if he looks down on me?

    It will take time. We shall see what course he decides to take. I read through his evaluation. He admitted to heavily smoking pot and dealing to support his habit. WHAT? First of all, who would admit to that to a professional, second, I absolutely will not have that in my home.

    This is true, there is so much out there to help guide him, but he does not want it.

    So true Apple. Sister confessed the other night that she is secretly glad he is gone. That speaks volumes.

    This is what I am focusing on. It is hard to swallow the grief of it all. But I had to take a stance to protect my home and grands. Right now, he is making terrible choices.

    Thank you Apple. I hope and pray he gets the help he needs. He has already stated that he doesn’t want help. He knows the path he is choosing is much like that of his parents. He knows the end result. But it hasn’t deterred him. I can’t sit and watch the circus up close and personal without taking a stand.
    Thank you all for your prayers and support. I am off to work today, will respond to others later. I am just mortified that my grandson would choose as he does. I hope he sees the light one day soon. The house is much calmer without his dark presence. He chose to be a bully in my home. He chose wrong.
  19. RN0441

    RN0441 100% better than I was but not at 100% yet

    One of our favorite sayings on this site is "don't write the end of the story". That phrase carries a lot of power and hope.

    I think the end of the story for your grandson could be very good because you intervened. You stopped the madness and called him out on it. You saved him from himself!

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  20. JayPee

    JayPee Sending good vibes...


    How sorry I am for all you’re going through. I know it’s difficult but I also feel it’s the right thing having him removed from your home.

    I have also witnessed “that glare” you mentioned when my younger son had gotten arrested and was in court with handcuffs on. That was at least 6 years ago but recalling it puts a pit in my stomach.

    I won’t allow either adult children to live with me any longer. It’s a two edged sword. I hurt for their loss but I remind myself of the many many 911 calls. The police were at our home so many times I cannot count.

    I have peace now. Something I had lost for many years.

    I hope you are able to gain some healing, respect and peace with two grandkids at home with you. Place your older grandson in God’s care asking him to put the right people in his life to guide him on the right path.

    Sending hugs.