The good, the bad and the utterly stupid

[Snow White]

Hopefully, most of you will figure out the profile change! So - here is the update (that many of you, including me figured would happen) but with a twist.

THE GOOD - Breathing a sigh of relief - daughter is NOT pregnant. Had the "miscarriage" on Monday. Boyfriend took her to hospital.

THE UTTERLY STUPID - Of course, she was in so much pain (miscarriage at 4 weeks gestation???) that the hospital gave her prescriptions for Dilaudid (hydromorphone) AND amitriptyline. Of course, as she tells the story, they had to give her the Dilaudid every hour while she was there. Welcome back to free drugs. I'm pretty sure she declined to tell hospital staff that she has addiction issues. I figure from her slurred speech that she was stoned when she left the hospital and now has prescriptions to carry on with.

THE BAD - After leaving hospital (daughter admits to being rude & angry with hospital staff), both daughter & boyfriend start fighting. Boyfriend starts driving car erratically and eventually stops car in an intersection and bolts on foot. She chases him. Both eventually return to car and now have police to deal with. Both admit to being suicidal and police escort them back to hospital. They are sent on their way after being examined/interviewed by psychiatrist, who recommends counselling for both of them.

Now they are back at a friend's place. Daughter says boyfriend needs to get out to the farm to work & earn some money. I asked why she wasn't going with him. I was told, "I can't....I am in so much pain that I can't even walk to the car." But wait a minute - she could chase after him in the street after he abandoned the car??? This drama will be good for a month or more of her "emotional and physical pain". It won't end well.

The more things change...the more they stay the same. I refused to jump back on the merry-go-round this time. She wasn't happy with me but I was happy with me...and that's what counts!!!

 

[Lil]

Well, I'd say that settles the question of the pregnancy...though I figured her not milking that for all it was worth by claiming morning sickness, etc., and thinking about biking cross-country pretty much showed there was nothing to worry about there. I agree with your utterly-stupid and bad assessments...though I think both are utterly stupid. Who leaves a car in an intersection?

YES to staying off the merry-go-round! All that will do is make you dizzy!

Bless you...I hope she stays quiet for a good long time now.

 

[Deni D]

I hope she slows her roll down a bit for a while to give you a breather. I just don’t understand how these adults can continue this wild lifestyle and not have it implode on them. But then they are good at fooling people for a while and good at finding people to fool. I thought hospitals were much more careful about giving out these kind of medications these days. I guess her medical records didn’t cross continents.

 

[One Hurt Mama]

Well, Snow, the GOOD is positively GREAT!! Don't let either of them back in your house WHATEVER happens! You're got to have a peaceful sanctuary where you can go to try to forget all of the UTTERLY STUPID. You take care of YOU . . . turn your cell off in the evening, take a nice bath if you're so inclined, and don't answer the door. Sending you hugs across the miles.

 

[BusynMember]

Can she go back to Asia?

Your daughter is a pathological liar and will never give you peace. I dont see someone as uncaring of others changing. You deserve peace i know you love your daughter no matter what, but I would keep your contact to phone/text only and reject firmly ANY money she asks for. Most likely its a scam if she claims she was beaten up, robbed, or almost died of some disease.
She is a master scammer. Dont give in.!

I am so sorry and hope she leaves you alone.

 

[DoneDad]

Shocker - she didn’t make it to the farm to work. Instead she’ll have to take drugs while boyfriend works (poor sap).

It is good that she’s not pregnant and there won’t be a baby involved in her madness. But what kind of person lies about something like that to manipulate others (you, boyfriend)? She must have no regard for other people.

I would have as little to do with her as possible. Please don’t ever let her set foot in your house again.

 

[Triedntrue]

What a relief on the pregnancy. One of my fears is my son fathering another child. Now that you know the truth hope you can relax a little.

 

[newstart]

Hopefully, most of you will figure out the profile change! So - here is the update (that many of you, including me figured would happen) but with a twist.

THE GOOD - Breathing a sigh of relief - daughter is NOT pregnant. Had the "miscarriage" on Monday. Boyfriend took her to hospital.

THE UTTERLY STUPID - Of course, she was in so much pain (miscarriage at 4 weeks gestation???) that the hospital gave her prescriptions for Dilaudid (hydromorphone) AND amitriptyline. Of course, as she tells the story, they had to give her the Dilaudid every hour while she was there. Welcome back to free drugs. I'm pretty sure she declined to tell hospital staff that she has addiction issues. I figure from her slurred speech that she was stoned when she left the hospital and now has prescriptions to carry on with.

THE BAD - After leaving hospital (daughter admits to being rude & angry with hospital staff), both daughter & boyfriend start fighting. Boyfriend starts driving car erratically and eventually stops car in an intersection and bolts on foot. She chases him. Both eventually return to car and now have police to deal with. Both admit to being suicidal and police escort them back to hospital. They are sent on their way after being examined/interviewed by psychiatrist, who recommends counselling for both of them.

Now they are back at a friend's place. Daughter says boyfriend needs to get out to the farm to work & earn some money. I asked why she wasn't going with him. I was told, "I can't....I am in so much pain that I can't even walk to the car." But wait a minute - she could chase after him in the street after he abandoned the car??? This drama will be good for a month or more of her "emotional and physical pain". It won't end well.

The more things change...the more they stay the same. I refused to jump back on the merry-go-round this time. She wasn't happy with me but I was happy with me...and that's what counts!!!

Snow White, I went though a situation very much like yours and my daughter had a miscarriage. She did not get on drugs but used her situation to the fullest. She is in a dead end relationship going on 9 years now with a guy that just can't get himself together. My husband and I have absolutely no contact with him what so ever, no words or anything like he is not even there. They keep each other stuck and in misery and when I am unhooked financially from my daughter I am going to get distance. I know the relief and sadness that comes from losing a grandchild. I was getting very excited but like all the other stuff that I get excited about with her it takes a downward spiral. I wish you much peace as you go through these hard years.

 

[BusynMember]

Whoever put a smile on my post, I am not offended but hope people did not misunderstand. Perhaps SnowbWhite rejects my advice, which is fine and her business, but I did not mean any of it as a joke. I am dead serious. I am no paychologist and I know that reading about disorders does NOT make me any sort of expert. The little I know and understand scream Antisocial Personality Disorder to me. Do Not Ever Trust. Do Not Expect Change. Guard Yourself!

I do know that Anti social persobality disorder means that the person has no conscious or empathy. Born without it for no known reason. They do not change. They dont want ro change. They dont understant decent treatment of others. And dont care.

Therefore, and Daughter scams, lies, uses, fakes illness and shows only fake regret when she wants money, I feel it is best to only talk to her from a distance, never bring her home and never believe her. No money for sure. Ever. If you see her, make it a crowded restaurant and never alone and lock your car doors. Walk out together with others, not alone, so she can do no harm without witnesses

Ted Bundy was antisocial. He killed people. Most antisocials just rob from others, use others, and lie to and scam people. Most never kill mostly because jail doesnt appeal to them. This adult grown woman is way off the deep end and it is not due to drug addiction. It is who she is. Deep. Deep. It is her lack of empathy

I just dont want more people in her circle to get scammed. She WILL lie to scam! I feel bad for her boyfriend. He believed her lies about getting back together. Now he will get taken for money and dumped when she finds a better money maker. I suspect she is quite pretty and can make men dizzy with infatuation at first. Just a guess. And a possible lethal tool.

Does she EVER tell a truth? Ever keep a promised?

She is a dangerous woman, out to scam anyone she can, even her parents. Change the locks. Get a security system. Dont let her in no matter what.

I am not being funny. I fear for anyone she meets. And to SnowWhite, you love her ...I get it. But she is dangerous. Watch your back, even though it is screwed up and one should never have to fear our own child. You do have to though.

Love and light of the highest.

 

[ksm]

SWOT...FYI ... Many times when I try to leave an emoji, I get the one next to it as they are so small and my fingers are too big! I just read this thread now, so it wasnt me...but I know it happens...

Or, maybe the "can she go back to Asia?" Was smile worthy!

ksm

 

[BusynMember]

I see. Thanks for telling me. I just didnt want my post ro be misunderstood. I appreciate your explanation, probably true.

 

[BusynMember]

Oh ok.

I was dead serious. That is probably best. She is a danger nearby. I would not want a daughter like her on my continent and between gofundme and friends giving her money, she did fine there.She will always find ways to eat, rest and be comfortable.

 

[Triedntrue]

I have also hit the wrong emoji by mistake on occasion.

 

[New Leaf]

The more things change...the more they stay the same. I refused to jump back on the merry-go-round this time. She wasn't happy with me but I was happy with me...and that's what counts!!!

Geez, Snow, definitely not the imagery of “Oh the Places You Will Go!” that Dr. Suess meant. What absolute chaos! It makes me dizzy just reading it.
Good for you in staying off the drama-go-round. Your happiness is what counts. Keep up the good work and stay away from being sucked into the crazy!
(((Hugs)))
Leafy

 

[Lil]

Whoever put a smile on my post, I am not offended but hope people did not misunderstand.

I suspect the same - they meant to hit "agree" which is right next to "funny". I'm sure Snow White understands that happens.

Leafy shared this on one of her recent threads. I think it is applicable here. I found it eye-opening.
http://www.beliefnet.com/love-famil...8-surprising-traits-of-predatory-people.aspx?

 

[Snow White]

Thanks to you all. The more I reflect on years gone by, the more it all starts bring forward feelings I tried so hard to ignore because whose daughter runs away constantly, destroys property, threatens to kill her family, scams people with fake life-threatening medical issues, ignores financial responsibilities, self-harms, threatens suicides and is basically mean to loved ones??? Certainly OUR daughter couldn't be that evil because that would reflect so badly on my husband and I. So, we must be the crazy ones. Enter gaslighting 101. She is a pro. Every now and then a memory pops up from the past (today's memory was the time she had her money benefactor ready to come to our house and set fire to it while we slept).

Her last adult diagnosis (at age 19) was that of evolving Cluster B personality disorders, along with a couple of comorbid diagnoses: Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD), ADHD, etc. And I believe that SWOT is correct - our daughter is the poster child for antisocial, borderline, histrionic and narcissistic personality disorders (all neatly bundled together). She claims to be an empath but I know differently. I remember that when she was a child, around 6 or 7 years old - if we were out in public and she heard a baby crying (not whining but full out crying), she didn't bat an eye - never made a comment or asked what might be wrong with the baby. It bothered me then and still does today.

But then they are good at fooling people for a while and good at finding people to fool.

That will never change...sadly.

Can she go back to Asia?
Your daughter is a pathological liar and will never give you peace.

Therefore, and Daughter scams, lies, uses, fakes illness and shows only fake regret when she wants money, I feel it is best to only talk to her from a distance, never bring her home and never believe her.

SWOT - I imagine that when the novelty of being back in North America wears off (or her money supply does), she will go back to Asia. It is cheap and she knows the system. Distance is a good thing. We are taking the advice that you and others have offered - when/if she comes back to our house, we will not allow her/them in. They can get a hotel or hostel room and we will visit them. This past visit showed that there was no respect for us or our house. Poor guest behavior will not be rewarded or tolerated.

Instead she’ll have to take drugs while boyfriend works (poor sap).

DoneDad - I feel sorry for the guy but he had his chance to get out alive. He got sucked back into the tornado and I am thinking that he is also mentally unstable. I can't save the world.

Geez, Snow, definitely not the imagery of “Oh the Places You Will Go!” that Dr. Suess meant.

Leafy - I think there might be a lot more "hidden wisdom" in Dr. Suess books than we really know!!! And the link to the "Suprising Traits of Predatory People" was a direct hit. It outlines our daughter perfectly.

I believe that the recent death of our next-door neighbor's son (fentanyl-laced MDMA drug overdose) is actually helping me to also grieve the loss of a relationship (unhealthy) that I have been trying so hard to "fix". I see both of these as choices our adult children have made - that we, as parents, could not control. Hubby and I are going to therapy so that I can "let go" of my perceived failure to launch a good child. We're also focusing on our son's happy moments - a brand new house very soon and who knows what else!

{{Hugs}}

 

[ksm]

A miscarriage at four weeks sounds like a menstral cycle. Sorry to sound so sarcastic and unfeeling. I really do have compassion for those who are truly going thru a difficult time, but it sounds like it was all a scam. Ksm

 

[DoneDad]

Therapy sounds really good. Helped us a lot. Keep on moving forward. And enjoy that yoga!

 

[Copabanana]

runs away constantly, destroys property, threatens to kill her family, scams people with fake life-threatening medical issues, ignores financial responsibilities, self-harms, threatens suicides and is basically mean to loved ones??? Certainly OUR daughter couldn't be that evil

To me the concept of evil does not fit here. (Or, more to the point... I hope it doesn't.)

What your daughter seems to do is -- whatever she thinks of, in the moment -- to get what she wants-- independently of the effects on anybody else. She seems to not factor in the needs or feelings of any other person. It is this which would have been so catastrophic were she to be a mother.

I do not think her intention is to do bad things. But the issue, is that she seems to not have intentions at all. Rather than intentions she has impulses which do not seem to be filtered by any moral revision or thought.

I think this is true of many of the adult children here on this site to one extent or another. It certainly is true of my son.

Today a notice arrived from my health insurance referencing billing in his name for $2500 in charges to get to the emergency hospital, and $4500 to carry him there in an ambulance. We live in the same town. At least we did then. He regularly walks from where he was living to where the hospital is, which is a 5 minute walk from me. He could have called us for a ride. He did not.

That I am aware of, he had not been ill. Except for a mild case of the summer flu.

This is not the first time he has done this. He is indifferent to the social costs of such behavior. He is indifferent to accruing bills. Why pay them?

Out of sight. Out of mind. He is indifferent to consequences to himself or others. He only wants what he wants in the moment. He does not learn from one experience to the next.

What I think this is, more than evil, is animalistic. It is animals whose memory is limited. It is animals who operate from instinct. It is animals who are usually but not always amoral.

I would not want to think of my son as evil. Nor is thinking of him as an animal much easier to bear. But if I think about being human, of having humanity, the heart of it, is having heart, being conscious, and learning.

How many times more will I feel the need to post these words or something like this?

Oh. How hard this is.

Albatross wrote something very beautiful in the past week, reflecting upon preceding posts by TL and myself. Since I do not remember her precise words, I will write my understanding of what she said.

TL and I lamented how in relation to our sons we had been strategic or controlling.

Albatross wants to live in the immediacy of her felt experience, wholly present in relationship. No future. No past. Just present. Without judgement or expectation.

Martin Buber the famous theologian/philosopher talks about this as I/Thou.

He wrote how our tendency is to relate to each other as "it."

Honestly. I do not know how to do what Albatross strives for. But my inability to be present with my son has made me seriously ill and despairing for almost a decade. I concealed my despair for many years by anger. I have tried all manner of other escapes. Now. I will not speak with him at all.

My sorrow and regret are boundless.

I believe that there has been a mutation in our relationship caused by my own inability to relate to how he began to live, and to behave; the kind of person he ended up being. An inability to be present to him and the reality of his suffering and limitation. These are just too painful to me.

The question is whether or not any parent such as I am is capable of sustaining a non judgmental and non reactive stance when nearly every principle and practice to which she holds dear, is disregarded by the person she has loved most in her whole life.

This issue is one that you have touched upon in this thread. Who wants to live the rest of their lives fearing the presence of their child, knowing that there is no possibility of real relationship?

Surely, not me.

I think we cast about for ways to distance ourselves from this yawning glimpse into horror. So we find words like "evil" to contain this indescribably horrible feeling. And the worst thing of all, is that this worst word in the whole word is not big or bad enough to contain the reality that we face.

Maybe, in that light, there is a way to learn to be as Albatross describes. Just being present, without hiding.

I went back and I found that quote that meant so much to me.

Your quote about thinking strategically and t.l.'s quote about giving up control really ring true for me.

How freeing it is, to give up all STRATEGIC thought and all illusions of control, and just relate to others honestly. That's what I strive for.

Thank you. Albatross. How did you do it?​

 

[Albatross]

Great name change, Snowy!

I'm glad she is out of your house and that you stood so firmly against being sucked into the maelstrom. I agree with ksm, but either way I'm glad she is not pregnant. It doesn't sound like either of them are ready to parent a child.

I'm so sorry about the loss of your neighbor's son. What a tragedy.

Hubby and I are going to therapy so that I can "let go" of my perceived failure to launch a good child.

I think therapy is a very good idea because you and hubby have been through so much. But PLEASE do "let go" of any sense of failure. This is not on you or your husband.

I am not judging your daughter a sociopath, but have you read "The Sociopath Next Door" by Martha Stout? It discusses the root causes of poorly developed empathy. Studies involving MRI imaging of the brain point to differences in the structure of the brain, rather than environment or upbringing, as being common to those who lack empathy. They process emotions and lend attention to stimuli differently than most of us because they are "hard-wired" differently. It might be worth a read.