Therapist for DC2

[Copabanana]

this woman called daughter on her issues, said she had daddy issues and DC2 said she would never go back to her

It can (and should) be hard to find the right match as a therapist. A therapist has to be judicious about their interpretations. It's hard to know all the time how much a patient can tolerate of directness. It's normal to defend oneself when the truth hurts. Which is what your daughter is doing. I was sensitive too. Maybe with this therapist there was more truth than your daughter could handle.

Because I can't envision the kind of community where you live, I don't know the resources there. But there are all kinds of psychotherapies now, and the term has been greatly expanded to include approaches from dance and movement, art, music, drama, and somatic therapies. Even equine assisted therapy. Maybe something less verbal (but with support) would be more accessible for your daughter right now. And there is Family Systems Therapy.

So much of what you write of distress seems to come from how it is played out in the family.

That's one reason I harp on the importance of our having lives apart from the hothouse-intense dramas at home of which we are a part. And I need to follow my own advice.

This therapist sounds toxic, unethical and all around bad news. I respect your stand.

wishing me a good flight home.

I wish you a safe and comfortable flight home too.

Saying she misses me and my hugs (???)

When she pushes you away she is trying to manage her own intense and ambivalent feelings for you. It has nothing to do with you or her love for you. It has everything to do with her.

Your son seems like he will soon be on his own. Which is a good thing. As he moves out and away relationships will come more into harmony, I believe.

I posted before about my friend whose daughter went to residential treatment for an eating disorder. Would there be that possibility for daughter to go to residential treatment for either her eating disorder or self-harming?

There was a famous movie many years ago called Network, I think. It was about news reporters. I can't remember the story. But it was famous for one line, which concluded, And I'm Not Going To Take It Anymore, said by the broadcast news anchor on live TV.

Said he doesn't love me .I took it.

This is very painful. I ache for you. But the person who needs to stand up for you, to protect you, is you. Get mad.

 

[Copabanana]

And no matter what they said or did, I always continued to love and forgive

I don't think this is wrong. I am the same way. But loving and forgiving is NOT tolerating bad behavior directed towards me or impacting me, without respite.

I am involved in the same kind of dance with my son. My son is not a mean person but being exposed to his behaviors and choices chips away at one. Wears me down. Wears M down. And then we begin to fight each other. And then I feel I have to choose one or the other. And I don't feel I can. I can't let my son go. He cannot do this alone. And yet he is not committed or is unable to implement the changes that would help him, and us. And I depend upon M greatly at this point. While in a relationship with him I took on obligations that I did not have the capability to manage myself. And I depend upon M emotionally. Too much.

So the three of us are always in some sort of disequilibrium. Pushing away. Pulling back. Like you and your daughter. Boundaries are part of love too. Aren't they?

 

[Copabanana]

I also want what is best for daughter. She has dragged her feet finding a new therapist out of fear.

I think part of the problem is that your focus is too much on your daughter, and not enough on you.

I see with my son, that he will make changes, as he wants, when he wants. I have no control over the timing. I have no control, all around. If our focus is on only them, it's like the watched pot, that never boils. I know you know this. But the only control you have is in your own life.

If we make ourselves more the center of our own life, some of this can fall into place. Your daughter sounds like my son, in that they both have found their greatest power and strongest voice in life, over us. Over our emotions. My son at times has acted like the most powerful man and esteemed man in the world, vis a vis me. Not in a dominating sense. But an exaggerated sense of how important is his every little action. Why? Because I am always waiting for the pot to boil. I act like Shakespeare over every little thing. I am like the crowd of thousands, in a football game, cheering or booing him, as I fall all over myself. What's wrong with this picture? I am.

Can you see that by pulling back, there creates the possibility for a healthier equilibrium? (Like now all of a sudden your daughter writes she misses your hugs and scent, when last I heard she had a "no touching" rule. Give me a break.)

They are the ones that have to learn to depend upon their own internalized cheers and boos, to guide their lives. Too much, their agency is in us, or to push against or resist us. If we can learn to be more indifferent, or act that way, it creates the possibility for them to listen to themselves, and to decide better. All the while, loving and forgiving them.

But then as I write this my stomach hurts because I fear that my son may lack capacity in essential ways. And I don't know how to come to grips with that. But then, the same rules apply. He has to have space from me (not geographical space, I have learned, but emotional space) to come up against himself and the opportunity to reach out to others who are not me.

 

[Copabanana]

the birthday parties I had thrown him had all been for me

This is so, so ridiculous. What a serious crime.

I happen to think that integrity, coming up against the truths of one's own life, is the act of the most profound decency, courage and strength. What more powerful and loving act is there than to face up to oneself and take responsibility in relationship to those we love? And this is what you have devoted yourself to do. What's more important than this?

If our kids did a little more of that, so many of these issues would just evaporate into thin air.

I just spoke to my son. He went to a new liver doctor this week. (And slept outside in the Metro because I told him not to come home to squat in the yard.) He told me he is scheduled to have a liver biopsy on the 21rst of this month. His liver enzymes are elevated. I am quaking with fear. I did work it out that he will come back to the apartment with M. This is all so, so hard.

I need to get back to work now. To put into practice what I am preaching. This self-indulgence on my part has got to end.

 

[WiseChoices]

I will have to get caught up on reading these awesome looking posts a little later .just got home last night from my overseas trip.

Today is Day 1 at home, and the conflict is already here. After the wanting hugs bla bla bla message, daughter did not even leave her room when I came home for 15 minutes. I had a feeling it was b.s. designed to get me to shut up about therapist. She had asked husband during my absence how we felt about it and he did not communicate the boundary. He did say he did not think she had been helped there .

So this morning , daughter asked about my trip and then I asked about her month here. And she mentioned she had a bunch of appointments. And I asked for what and she mentioned therapist. So I communicated my boundary. That she knew I had issues with this therapist and that if she wanted to see her she had to be aware that I would not do any of the billing, payments for messed up billing, or give rides there. Predictably, daughter started to cry and victim role - how hard it had been for her to decide to go back to therapy , how she needs to talk to someone, how it's too hard to roll out your history with someone new. How happy she had been to find out that therapist was on our insurance now. (Still don't know how she found out, did not ask). How she needs someone to empathize with her and this therapist does that. I only listened. I understand all of her reasons. And I really wish I could be supportive.

She wanted to know my issues : I told her about the billing (again), even said that there were some unethical things (I figured therapist would back off if daughter communicated that to her / they text) and that today, I have to stand in my integrity and can't support that ( here she interrupted me and said sarcastically that I was so superior to other people) . I added that she had not gotten any better in the 4 years she has seen said therapist. To which daughter replied that that was none of my business. I said she had been grossly misdiagnosed (bipolar) and daughter said that was her fault based on what she said to therapist and that again this was none of my business. I started to get angry at this point and did not want to give any more reasons , so I told her that since she wants to play the "none of your business game" that my reasons were none of her business and I was done . She got up, raised her voice told me that I was incapable of accepting boundaries from anyone and stalked off.

Has been in her room ever since. I went to church, came back, made lunch for hub and I and she came out to get water and ignored me. I didn't say anything .

She wants a ride to the pharmacy for yet another medication. Said she had gotten effexor and it was not working so she is back on Prozac which she called in. She was just at the psychiatrist and so she argued for effexor with then and it's not working like all of her ideas on what chemicals her brain needs. So now back to Prozac. She asked hub for a ride just now saying she was mad at me and wanted him to do it. This is now $50 in copays and the 5th medication this month and I told hub that we will need to discuss a cap on copays. He still does not know what 4 medications she got the other day and whether she complied with my rules about no benzos. I feel very alone and certainly don't need any more conflict with her at this point , so I won't ask right now.

 

[WiseChoices]

It can (and should) be hard to find the right match as a therapist. A therapist has to be judicious about their interpretations. It's hard to know all the time how much a patient can tolerate of directness. It's normal to defend oneself when the truth hurts. Which is what your daughter is doing. I was sensitive too. Maybe with this therapist there was more truth than your daughter could handle.

Because I can't envision the kind of community where you live, I don't know the resources there. But there are all kinds of psychotherapies now, and the term has been greatly expanded to include approaches from dance and movement, art, music, drama, and somatic therapies. Even equine assisted therapy. Maybe something less verbal (but with support) would be more accessible for your daughter right now. And there is Family Systems Therapy.

So much of what you write of distress seems to come from how it is played out in the family.

That's one reason I harp on the importance of our having lives apart from the hothouse-intense dramas at home of which we are a part. And I need to follow my own advice.

This therapist sounds toxic, unethical and all around bad news. I respect your stand.I wish you a safe and comfortable flight home too.
When she pushes you away she is trying to manage her own intense and ambivalent feelings for you. It has nothing to do with you or her love for you. It has everything to do with her.

Your son seems like he will soon be on his own. Which is a good thing. As he moves out and away relationships will come more into harmony, I believe.

I posted before about my friend whose daughter went to residential treatment for an eating disorder. Would there be that possibility for daughter to go to residential treatment for either her eating disorder or self-harming?

There was a famous movie many years ago called Network, I think. It was about news reporters. I can't remember the story. But it was famous for one line, which concluded, And I'm Not Going To Take It Anymore, said by the broadcast news anchor on live TV. This is very painful. I ache for you. But the person who needs to stand up for you, to protect you, is you. Get mad.

Thank you so much, Copa. Your support has been invaluable to me! I did have a smooth and good journey back - thank you. I like the idea of art or equine therapy. I don't think we have anything like that, but it would be worth exploring IF daughter wishes to pursue this. I could mention it when the time seems right. She abhorrs my input at the moment. We are in a very small rural community with a very bad mental health support system. Only 1 psychiatrist and maybe 10 therapists. Mental health hospital has bad rep .

I don't know about in patient treatment. She would refuse, I think , and I can't suggest anything to her anyways. I am just going to stay out of her mental health and let her figure things out. I don't know whether she is currently cutting. She had stopped a few months before I left. Historically, she cut every time I left on my trips (this was 3 rd one), so I am not sure. She is wearing long sleeves.

Yes, son is doing well at work and I do think he will be ready to move out soon .He is very detached , didn't ask about my trip, and talked a little about his work and gym and I think this is normal behavior for his age. I do think harmony will be restored when the relationship is not that close in terms of the living situation. They left the house a pig sty despite me asking to clean it up before I got here.

 

[WiseChoices]

I don't think this is wrong. I am the same way. But loving and forgiving is NOT tolerating bad behavior directed towards me or impacting me, without respite.

I am involved in the same kind of dance with my son. My son is not a mean person but being exposed to his behaviors and choices chips away at one. Wears me down. Wears M down. And then we begin to fight each other. And then I feel I have to choose one or the other. And I don't feel I can. I can't let my son go. He cannot do this alone. And yet he is not committed or is unable to implement the changes that would help him, and us. And I depend upon M greatly at this point. While in a relationship with him I took on obligations that I did not have the capability to manage myself. And I depend upon M emotionally. Too much.

So the three of us are always in some sort of disequilibrium. Pushing away. Pulling back. Like you and your daughter. Boundaries are part of love too. Aren't they?

Yes, absolutely. Boundaries are loving. We need to set and respect healthy boundaries in our relationships.

I understand the dance of disequilibrium you are describing. With my daughter it's constant push and pull. I am disengaging from that game more and more though and I just let the space be there.

 

[WiseChoices]

I think part of the problem is that your focus is too much on your daughter, and not enough on you.

I see with my son, that he will make changes, as he wants, when he wants. I have no control over the timing. I have no control, all around. If our focus is on only them, it's like the watched pot, that never boils. I know you know this. But the only control you have is in your own life.

If we make ourselves more the center of our own life, some of this can fall into place. Your daughter sounds like my son, in that they both have found their greatest power and strongest voice in life, over us. Over our emotions. My son at times has acted like the most powerful man and esteemed man in the world, vis a vis me. Not in a dominating sense. But an exaggerated sense of how important is his every little action. Why? Because I am always waiting for the pot to boil. I act like Shakespeare over every little thing. I am like the crowd of thousands, in a football game, cheering or booing him, as I fall all over myself. What's wrong with this picture? I am.

Can you see that by pulling back, there creates the possibility for a healthier equilibrium? (Like now all of a sudden your daughter writes she misses your hugs and scent, when last I heard she had a "no touching" rule. Give me a break.)

They are the ones that have to learn to depend upon their own internalized cheers and boos, to guide their lives. Too much, their agency is in us, or to push against or resist us. If we can learn to be more indifferent, or act that way, it creates the possibility for them to listen to themselves, and to decide better. All the while, loving and forgiving them.

But then as I write this my stomach hurts because I fear that my son may lack capacity in essential ways. And I don't know how to come to grips with that. But then, the same rules apply. He has to have space from me (not geographical space, I have learned, but emotional space) to come up against himself and the opportunity to reach out to others who are not me.

Copa wrote: "Your daughter sounds like my son, in that they both have found their greatest power and strongest voice in life, over us. Over ouremotions. My son at times has acted like the most powerful man and esteemed man in the world, vis a vis me. Not in a dominating sense. But an exaggerated sense of how important is his every little action"

YES!!!! The name of the game is control over me. With my daughter , she is clearly domineering. When she talks to me, she is sure of herself, has a firm tone. If she brought this sense of power and control into her own life, the sky would be the limit for her.

It's interesting that our children live out their power via us. I too fear that daughter won't be able to function properly in the world. I can see how afraid you are for your son, and I understand what that's like.

 

[WiseChoices]

This is so, so ridiculous. What a serious crime.

I happen to think that integrity, coming up against the truths of one's own life, is the act of the most profound decency, courage and strength. What more powerful and loving act is there than to face up to oneself and take responsibility in relationship to those we love? And this is what you have devoted yourself to do. What's more important than this?

If our kids did a little more of that, so many of these issues would just evaporate into thin air.

I just spoke to my son. He went to a new liver doctor this week. (And slept outside in the Metro because I told him not to come home to squat in the yard.) He told me he is scheduled to have a liver biopsy on the 21rst of this month. His liver enzymes are elevated. I am quaking with fear. I did work it out that he will come back to the apartment with M. This is all so, so hard.

I need to get back to work now. To put into practice what I am preaching. This self-indulgence on my part has got to end.

I am so, so sorry your son needs to have a liver biopsy. That is scary and I know how terribly afraid you must feel. I can understand that you want to let him back under these new circumstances .I will pray for your son and your family.

My children, both, have done nothing but fight us on our recovery and willingness to work on ourselves .I invited them to my 27 year sobriety talk and was rebuked. I wanted to give them my 27 year Medaillon and they both refused it. So this year, for my 28th, I did not even mention it.

I get sarcastic comments about my belief in a higher power , and sometimes when they want to talk about my beliefs and I am willing to share , I get ridiculed.

I am focusing on myself now. The physical distance of being in Europe for a month has helped me to detach. I will take the focus off them and get more fully into my own life. I won't ask any questions. I won't make any suggestions. I will only answer their questions , briefly, and not initiate any conversation. With love. Not out of spite. But as self preservation. There are plenty of people who like me, who want to spend time with me, and who ask my guidance in AA or NA and I will focus on all of that.

 

[Copabanana]

We are in a very small rural community with a very bad mental health support system. Only 1 psychiatrist and maybe 10 therapists.

I live in an exurban community too. A small city in a very fertile agricultural hub. An our mental health they utilize telepsych. There is NOT one psychiatrist who resides here of whom I am aware. We are up against the same thing.

If you are in a rural area there should be equine therapy or equine-assisted therapy. I found it here in my area perhaps one hour away. The other possibility would be for your daughter to see somebody good via Zoom. Many excellent therapists are seeing distant patients through this recently developed technology that is like Skype but better. I have consulted several times with a therapist this way, and am about to do so again, with another. It is HIPAA compliant.

The hurdle you have is that daughter is enamored with and empowered through this therapist in her power dynamic in the family. I can't think of one thing you can do except what you are doing. You are NOT trying to disempower her. If she sees it that way, that's her choice.

 

[Copabanana]

When she talks to me, she is sure of herself, has a firm tone. If she brought this sense of power and control into her own life, the sky would be the limit for her.

The reason she is confident and firm with YOU is because this is in relation to you. Her conflict about moving beyond or away from you is not activated. When you are not there her power scares her...because she's ambivalent about moving away from you psychologically and maybe physically too. Or else why would she cut when you're in Europe?

What you are doing, I think, by focusing on your own separate life, and putting into place firm but loving boundaries is the best possible thing for her. One you are showing her that you can tolerate and want her to be separate and autonomous in relation to you. Two you are creating a structure whereby she can become independent and self-sufficient, not inter-dependent in the sense of enmeshed.

 

[WiseChoices]

The therapist saga continues!!! I am pretty sure daughter is doing therapy over the phone with this therapist. She said this morning she was going outside to talk to a friend right at 11 am which is what her appointment time was the first week she went to see this therapist. She came in about an hour later .Which means this therapist is billing MY insurance once again for office visits while doing phone consult. She did the same while kids were in college.

I have not told daughter about how therap violated client professional confidentiality with all of us. I have not told her of the long lost of diagnosis this therap had for her .

I think I will Not say a thing about this and let my daughter live with her own conscience about lying to me . I also see how my attempts at control just make her lie and hide more (like Busy predicted).

I read a Marcus Aurelius quote yesterday about not caring what anyone thinks, feels and does and just focus on our own thoughts, feelings and actions. That felt freeing to me and I have been carrying that inside to help me. Al Anon also says that someone else's lies are their business not mine .this does personally involve me as it is my insurance that husband works and pays for! But what can I do?

I think I will wait for transaction to post and then print the explanation of benefits , put it in front of daughter and just reiterate that I won't be responsible for any billing mess or resultant money that she may owe .

Daughter did get a job so I could also requwst that she get her own insurance as soon as possible.

What are your opinions?

 

[WiseChoices]

Oh and once she works , she won't have much time to see therapist. It's a full time job! And school online full time finishing up her Bachelors. So it's probably best to just let it go.

I also got a job! For the holidays as a clerk! This will get me through the holidays with focus on me !

 

[BusynMember1]

Hmmmm. This is so tough. I do stand by what I said about these defiant adult children doing what they chose to do no matter what we say or do. I am not sure all of them feel guilty about lying to us. We WANT to think they do, but I don't think Kay cared. Her moral compass is not mine.

I probably would not say anything about the therapist. Many times of telling Kay "I caught you" were fruitless. She would deny, deny, deny then get mad then abusive and she would try harder to sneak. This included smoking pot and taking other drugs in our home, dating Lee, stealing, and saying she was working/at college when she was not doing either.

You can't strike up contracts or bargains or compromises with a liar. Liars lie just like addicts use drugs.

What i would probably have tried with Kay would have been to tell her she had to make all co pays once she was working. Telling her not to see Shady Therapist, if she is contrary and must show you who's boss, may bond her to Ms. Shady even more. So I would focus on payment.

Now Kay would not do co pays, but it would have been worth a try. Kay refused therapy "There is nothing wrong with me. It's the world that is screwed up and I just see it the way it really is. You think the world is sane. YOU need help." This is not verbatim but close.

In the end, because of what our kids may lie about to therapists we are not likely to enjoy any feedback our kids share with us from their therapists, even if they share with honesty. But therapy sessions are not something we can control. Their truth may not be ours or they may lie on purpose.

You can try to not pay though.

Congrats on your job!!!!!

 

[WiseChoices]

Busy, thank you. That makes a lot of sense. You have so much experience (unfortunately) with this that you are guiding me. I agree - I am finding that the more control I bring down, the more lies and sneaking around I get. I will just let it go and not say anything. I agree 100% that if I say anything there will be more lies, more deceipt and sneakier ways. She won't feel bad. She won't stop seeing therapist. The only way that may happen is if I leave it alone and let it all run its course. Thank you for sharing with me how Kay reacted to "you got caught scenarios". That is helpful.

I feel tired from all this suffering I am causing myself so I will try to just accept and go with the flow for a while. See how that feels. To not do anything and let my higher power be in charge. I turned both kids over to Him the other day. Let it be.

 

[BusynMember1]

You do have the option of refusing to pay. You don't need to mention the therapists name, just tell her it would be responsible of her to take care of her own medical co pays including her therapy.

I am so sorry you are hurting. I know how awful it feels. Prayers.

 

[WiseChoices]

There are no co-pays for mental health on our plan. Thank you for empathizing. I am just tired and battle worn .

Busy wrote: [[[You can't strike up contracts or bargains or compromises with a liar. Liars lie just like addicts use drugs.]]]

I just reread your post from yesterday! This hit me like a ton of bricks! You are soooo right! I copied it into my journal. Yes! You cannot strike up any of those things with liars and my daughter , unfortunately, lies a lot. This has been going on for a long time. I have to accept that . And keep it in mind. I still think of her as much younger, sweet and thoughtful like she used to be. And that is a mistake because it makes me respond from an emotional place, not logic and rationality which is the only path to take .

Thank you for your wisdom and sharing your experience .