Well, my friends, I am back and it is not good news . . .

[dashcat]

Hello,
I am not a been there done that mom. I am new to this forum and fairly new to the world of difficult children. My daughter was a model student and a model child until 8th grade and then things slowly started to unwind. She's 18 now and I just found this forum (thank God).

Still, I hear in your posts that your mom gut is telling you that there might be more going on than the usual drama. The head banging would scare the heck out of me (but, remember, I don't have the experience of the Warriors!). You've seen a big change in her social behavior and she has expressed concern about bipolar.

I would lock up every credit card and valuable I owned and give her a short stay of execution about moving out. If she could see a new psychiatrist, that would be great. I would also require a certain amount of money from each paycheck (whatever amt you deem appropriate) until the debt is paid. Give her a deadline and a set of dealbreakers.

I'm not sure you can use Pell grant funds for an apartment. I have a Pell grant and attend a community college. Their guidelines are very specific - you have to maintain a certain GPA, atttend full time and use the funds for two semesters. I don't know what they do ify ou go to part time or don't maintain the GPA (it's not very high), but I thought I'd mention it. I would not allow her to use Pell funds to pay debts if I were you.

Hang in there.

dash

 

[witzend]

Right now she's a resident in your home with no contract. That's why you have to give her 30 days. If you have a contract with her and she breaks it, you don't need 30 days. Would it hold up in court? Probably. Would it hold up with a sympathetic police officer who comes to your home and finds an out of control thief? You bet it would. What's she going to do, sue you? I think not.

 

[Nomad]

Kathy...You do not have to keep her at your house and let steal from you.
Honestly, keep saying to yourself the word "boundaries," "self esteem" or whatever word you need to remind yourself of your own rights in all this and that you need to also set an example of how each and every one of us has to take control of our actions. Just because your daughter feels really bad right now, doesn't excuse these behaviors. Sure, it might be harder for her to control impulses at the moment. This does not mean it is impossible. And it certainly doesn't explain stealing.
She has to FIGHT to control her impulses.
You have to FIGHT for your right for peace in your home and joy in your life.
You need to be what you might be seeing as self-ish and let go. You need to take care of yourself.
You both have to take control of the situation....it is cause and effect.
How fortunate your daughter is that there are people in the world who are willing to help her (medical people). However, she will have to do the hard work. (See Going North's post). She is over 21. It is what it is. It is her job, NOT yours. Your job is done.
Whether we like it or not, for the most part, we ARE our CHOICES.
It is choice, not chance that determines our destiny.
Again, I am so sorry. I know it is not easy ... a crummy part of life for us here on the PE forum especially.

 

[CrazyinVA]

I'm so sorry, Kathy. Quite honestly, your difficult child sounds borderline, she is so much like my Oldest. If you haven't read the "Walking on Eggshells" book .. I'd suggest getting your hands on a copy. Actually I found the sequel, "The Essential Famly Guide" even better for offering specific strategies: http://www.amazon.com/Essential-Fam...Disorder/dp/1592853633/ref=dp_cp_ob_b_title_2

I think she is playing you to the hilt. I know it's incredibly difficult, because I've been there, but it's time to work on putting up some pretty strong boundaries, and sticking to them. I guarantee you she will come up with an alternative plan, with multiple promises to do better, and continue to "play the mental health card" (your words!) as long as you let her. She will sob, cry, scream, make excuses, but she won't become self-sufficient until she is forced to.

My Oldest is 26. She still job surfs, couch surfs, friend surfs. But she survives. She makes her living (or not) as a waitress/bartender. She's still fully Borderline (BPD), refuses mental health support, but she finds a way.. and your difficult child will find a way, too, if she has to.

 

[helpme]

I'm glad I kept my post to myself.
But I am glad that everyone combined said what I wanted to say, and
they did it a hell of a lot better than me. Because I just got real mad
at your daughter, because at 24, I think she is definitely playing
"everyone".

For others, if you get emotional reading/posting save your post
in notepad for a while and come back and read a few hours later.
Then make a better decision about your post.

 

[Nancy]

Oh Kathy I am so very sorry to read this. I had hoped that by hanging onto your success we would have that too some day. I won't even offer any advice because we are in much the samer position here. There are things missing from our home that I am sure difficult child took and sold. Last month I found a state quarter coin collection in her purse that my dad made for me that took years to collect. I was heartbroken. Wer haven;t seen her for three days now and I am sure she is holed up somewhere doing drugs. She has no key and we have her locked out, let her call the police to get back in because then I will report her for theft and drug abuse and breaking probation.

Things were going so well for us too for a while and all of a sudden they went downhill. I wish I knew what to tell you but my stomach is in knots for both of us.

Hugs,
Nancy

 

[DDD]

Can't tell you how sorry I am that you're back. Much as I've missed you I've rejoiced in the idea that you had found the light at the end of the tunnel. I don't even have any advice....guess that indicates that I am a bit beaten down. Sorry.

Rest assured, however, that I am sending my warmest most sincerely caring thoughts your way. Once you and your husband make the decisions just go with it knowing it is the best you can do. You guys are intelligent, experienced and loving parents. Your best is bound to be the best choice available. Hugs. DDD

 

[BusynMember]

I have borderline and bipolar and I don't steal. My mom threw me out (for reasons unrelated to my mental illness, but I think she had the same disorders I have only tenfold). I had to survive and I chose to get help and have done steadily better all my life. I never abused drugs, always went to my appointments, did self-help, tried very hard to get where I'm at...all without ANY parental involvement because they didn't care. I feel that their not caring HELPED me. Yes, HELPED me. Nobody enabled me so I had to do the best I could myself.

Because Ive had a hard life myself psychiatrically, I would definitely hold her to the standards of most twenty-four year olds (and, yes, I think you'd find she is using drugs...and maybe abusing her own Adderrall...that's a hot drug on the street). Whether she is hooked on prescription drugs or using recreational drugs or both, she needs help and she isn't motivated to get it. Stealing from you? Are you kidding? My daughter would be out the door, with a list of resources. She couldn't live with me unless she was first acting responsible OUT of my house. I'd need the proof.

You can waste your entire life worrying about your daughter, who does not seem compelled to make her life better, or you can enjoy these supposed-to-be empty nest years and disengage. There are a lot of "mentally fragile" people. Not all of them are abusive, take drugs, or steal. Many try to get healthy.

If this were me, and it's just my opinion, I'd give her 30 days eviction time and no money in between. If she stole during that time, I'd call the cops. I would let her know before she did it, that the gig is up and that I WILL call the cops if she steals from me. Then on Day 30, if she hasn't straightened out, she'd be gone with a list of resources that could help her find housing, names of drug rehabs, and homeless shelters. It may sound tough, but my own daughter also straightened out with Tough Love. She has been clean for seven years now. She is back in school, on her own, bought a house with her SO and is both in school full time to be a pastry chef and working full time (a grueling schedule for an ex-difficult child drug addict). I truly believe kid gloves and third and forth chances don't motivate the unhealthy to get clean and get help. Of course, this is JMO.

I feel for your mommy heart; been there/done that. And I wish you luck, no matter what you decide to do. (((Hugs)))

 

[DammitJanet]

Kathy, I am so sorry to see you back under these circumstances. I can imagine how this is breaking your heart.

I do think the banging head thing was manipulation for your benefit but the description of her room and the isolation and room issues worry me. You know I have been through the stealing thing and it is just such a betrayal. Nothing feels worse than someone you love stealing from you.

Also I am very leery of her wanting to jump ship on her occupation. Very mood disorderish. Grass is always greener syndrome. I dont think now is the time for her to do this. She really doesnt sound real stable. Is she actually going to her doctor appointments and would she allow you to go with her? That might be a good thing. Also maybe she should ask if she could start seeing a therapist from there for a while.

Im iffy about the whole toss her out right now. I know its the hard nose way in tough love but I tend to worry when they seem too off.

 

[Kathy813]

MWM ~ As I recall, when you used tough love your daughter went to live with your son . . . she wasn't out on the streets. There is a big difference.

Janet ~ I thought of you when all of this happened. I don't know how you had the strength to turn in Cory when he stole from you. Somehow, no matter how mad I get about her stealing from us, I can't turn her in knowing that she would end up in jail. Sadly, I know it will just keep happening if there are no consequences. I guess our goal now is to just get her out of the house so she doesn't have access to our things. What I don't understand is why she does it when she knows we will find out about it.

Yes, I think she is abusing her prescription drugs but there is nothing I can do about it. At 24, she is protected by privacy laws. I have thought about calling the mental health clinic and asking to talk to the doctor to just tell him the things that we are seeing. I'm not sure they would let me do that, though.

The latest plan is that she is going to pay us back with the next paycheck and is waiting to hear about being accepted back into the community college and to hear about her loans. She plans on using the money from her FAFSA loan to help with rent. As I said before, I think this is a mistake but it will get her out of our house.

I once thought that getting her to 18 and graduated from high school would be the end of difficult child problems. Boy, was I wrong.

~Kathy

 

[DammitJanet]

Kathy, I didnt turn him in the first time, or the second or or or or or. I kept giving him chances. I talked myself blue in the face about what could happen to him if he did it again. At first he only took a few bucks. I rationalized it by saying...well...his SSI check did go into my bank account so I would just repay it from his next months check. Whatever. Taught him nothing.

I could have chosen to do the same thing when he stole from me the last time. It was major money but he was still living at home and I could have forced him to live cash free for the period of time he needed to pay me back. I just had had enough. I got to my breaking point. Somewhere deep inside I knew if I didnt say enough right then and there he wasnt going to stop his slippery slope and something really bad was going to happen. I put the brakes on him. I really wish he had cashed all the money in one check though. By doing it in several checks it made for several felonies. Sigh. But do remember, he took 1500 bucks. That was a huge chunk of change. And you know what was so incredibly sad? I was coming home from Jamies house after seeing Hailie born and I was going to buy him a scooter for his birthday. He just couldnt wait for me to get home and took that money from me. If he had waited, he would have got what he wanted and not had all this bad junk happen. He was just too impulsive. Look what it got him.

 

[Nomad]

Kathy, I came her feel crummy 'cause I personally recognize much of the dilemma you are in. It is a no win situation. And that feeling of hopelessness is just hideous. It, in my opinion, is the worst feeling in the world.
I use to rage again the world, G-d, etc. because it bothers me to no end to be put into this position. My only way out is to just do my best to shift my thinking. It is not easy, and I am still working on it. I try to substitute positive thoughts whenever I can.
I like your thinking re: having her leave your home and pushing forward. husband and I did get some relief when we did that. Right now, we are practicing some sort of combination of tough love combined with giving difficult child limited assistance with reference to good mental and physical health. She can take the ball and run with it or not. We give much of our burdens over to a Higher Power and push forward each in every day, keeping busy, accepting and welcoming our right to joy in this world and hope for the best. I am so sorry that you are going through this heartache again. Sending good thoughts to you and yours.

 

[tiredmommy]

Kathy- I was able to to talk to my father's doctor when he was lying to his doctor and behaving erratically. I explained to the receptionist that I understood the doctor or staff could not share any information with me, but that I wished to give them information about my father and his behaviors. He listened to what I was seeing, asked a few clarifying questions, restated back what I said and thanked me. So I think that the clinic may listen to you if you don't come across as looking for information on difficult child. Good luck.

 

[DammitJanet]

I think so too. Also you could tell your dtr that if she wishes to remain in your home that you want her to sign a consent form with her doctor to allow you to speak with them. I have signed releases with all my doctors so Tony, Jamie, Billy and Cory can talk to my doctors. Just a precaution on my part. They cant make decisions for me but they can at least contact them and speak with them for me. Would have come in darned handy!

 

[witzend]

Ooh, Janet - good idea!

 

[Bean]

First of all, I'm sorry for your circumstances. I know how your heart must ache.

It's the choice she has made, and if she had done this to a stranger they would tell the police. You may be fooling yourself that you are the only ones that she is stealing from. If I had told her I was going to turn her in, I would. It makes it worse to make threats that you don't keep. She may very well be putting on a big show for you by banging her head that she wouldn't put on for someone else.

Agreed. Say what you mean, mean what you say and follow through with it. Hard. Hard, hard. I know. And reporting your own kid is hard, but I don't know. It might be necessary.

I don't think that she is using illegal drugs but I do think that she is abusing her prescription medications. She threatened to sell her Adderall to pay us back . . . again, something that she is being "forced" to do . . . that's how she thinks. Oh, and I am being spiteful using this "bad decision" against her. And as crazy as it sounds . . . it gets to me.

Same duck, different waddle. I mean, if she's addicted/abusing rx medications, she's probably having to resort to the same scummy practices of someone who uses illegal drugs. And they can be just as dangerous.

I have borderline and bipolar and I don't steal... Nobody enabled me so I had to do the best I could myself...
You can waste your entire life worrying about your daughter, who does not seem compelled to make her life better, or you can enjoy these supposed-to-be empty nest years and disengage. There are a lot of "mentally fragile" people. Not all of them are abusive, take drugs, or steal. Many try to get healthy.

This was great. I'm so glad I read this thread. I'm going to send your response, MidwestMom, to my own mother. The points you made were excellent, on point. Outside of mental illness, I think there is a lot of selfishness in being a difficult child (BDDT), and they will take, take, take as long as they are allowed to. Even if they know it is wrong, even if they feel badly about it. If there is a potential to lie/cheat/steal they often will, and always have a good excuse as to why they need to do it.

I don't kick my daughter out of my parent's house because I'm fearful of what would happen. Fearful for her. And in my fear, I may just be hindering the one thing that could bring her around. Food for thought.

 

[Star*]

Hi Kat,

Okay huge hugs first because it ounds like you've been living in chaos city without the slightest bit of parole for even a moment of deflation. For that dear you could sit and blame yourself and say things like "well I know I'm following my heart, or I know I took her in, or I know I keep making mistakes that keep making it worse for her AND us" but truth is - you do what you do when you do it because either you have to do it to survive, or if you do it any other way you feel like it will make things worse and you can't handle THAT even more than what you're dealing with. I don't ever think it's a matter of coulda, woulda, shoulda.....I think it's a matter of "I'm trying to get through today the easiest way I know how." Not necessarily the 'BEST' way. I mean if you knew a better way? You'd be there. That's where your friends come in (like us) and say things like
"We're behind you - try this.....G'ahed try it again, and again, and again." ......ad nauseum.

Some of us? (like me) I think [chortle, haha] must be into some sort of deviant form of parental S&M - "SURE BRING IT ON.....whip me...Iiiiiii like it.." and so we just keep doing the same things over and over until either other members here verbally give us a lashing as in "Are you SERIOUS this is enough!" and it sinks in like oil in sand (black gold, Texas tea) or we finally read SOMETHING from SOMEONE that is written in a way that we read, and re-read and re-read and think----WOW.....is that? Could that be? Is THAT the sign? (here's your sign). And we all of a sudden see things like head banging, crying and all the other little tricks with an aire of flippant [exhale] "oh that little diddy again? TRY BANGING HARDER and I'll call 911 when you pass out." no I'm not kidding - it gets so passe'. Fran is very right - they up the ante when you buy into their behaviors but it is SO hard to determine when they are having a 'moment' to induce sympathy or whether they are truly having a borderline situation in which they could go ballistic and truly harm themselves -
WHICH brings me to my next thing and ultimately what I wanted to talk to you about because I didn't read thoroughly everyone's response although there really was a lot of good information and love from all ----
So.....after being there multiple times with my own what does happen? Well, it's not something (even from personal mind wanderings while under the influence of SSRI's) that YOU (meaning YOU PERSONALLY MOM) could control. Believe me - when Zoloft did it's little number on me/ when I was planning how to hang myself? YOU couldn't have prevented it - it was just like I had it all worked out. That's all I did was plan how to work it out, and it was euphoric in a way, almost dream like. So as far as the angry, yelling mob that was banging her head on the wall? Well - been there done that and sadly - it was for attention. Know how I know? (eesch - not the popular answer here, but.....)Let me ask you this.....IF you or a stranger (while she was banging her head on the wall) had gone over to her very calmly and grabbed the back of her hair and started saying "I'll help you, I'll help you." and proceeded to bang her head even harder on that wall - do you think she would have given in - or fought to stop it? (take a moment to think about it)

IF your answer is - She would have let them bang her head until she passed out and enjoyed it? THEN she needs MORE psychological help than YOU can give her at home and needs to be institutionalized for a time until she gets her medications correct and her mind straight. Not making deals with you about paychecks and gas cards, and trying to worry about day to day activities AND getting her head together. IT WILL NOT HAPPEN. If she's that bad? She can't do both. in my humble opinion.

If your answer is - She would have fought to get away and said "Are you crazy? LET ME GO!" Then she's playing everyone for sympathy and IS somewhat aware of her faculties, manipulative, probably needs to be on some type of medications, in counseling for her behaviors because that isn't a normal way to get attention - and YOU should probably seek counseling on how to help yourself do the detachment and tough love (very very very very hard - even with counseling) thing. (I know - doing it now and it just **** hoovers like a million horse apples) BUT it's dooable.

What I understand out of all of this is -------Either your kids are going to change or they're not. If they will? Good then eventually you can have a relationship. If not? Sigh - then too bad, you can't have a relationship - EITHER WAY.....YOU aren't getting drug into their garbage of the moment and are saving yourself. (am I getting this right anyone?) Trying to have a life - separate from them......and doing the best you can to have some days of peace, without lying, stealing, stress, and BS. (horseapples)

In the mean time - you do the best you can - to follow the examples of others for detaching....and try not to get sucked into your kids drama.

Something like that.

Hugs & Love
But.......after watching mine down a bottle of Tylenol in front of me? I calmly walked outside and told my DF to call the ambulance ----when they got there? We let the ambulance take him.....and when they said "Are you coming?" we said "Nope -you can pump his stomach without us." The look on the ambulance drivers face was priceless." about 2 hours later we got to the hospital and the ER doctor was furious. He told us there was nothing in his stomach, but was admitting him to the psychiatric ward. We said okay - had it out with mental health who wanted to send him home.....and then left-without him. Two weeks later? They took him to jail for burglary and now he's a felon. So my thought is the head banging - again? Not so much. Shocking - but I'm the one who grabbed his head the last time he did it and said - OH let me help you. Yeah - that stopped right away.

 

[gottaloveem]

((Kathy))
So sorry things are going poorly right now.

One thing you said that really struck me is that your daughter isn't abusing street drugs, but you suspect she is abusing her prescription drugs. I see no difference between the two. Her behavior is just that as somebody who is abusing street drugs. (especially the stealing)

I recently went to a town hall meeting where I live. The meeting discussed prescription drug abuse. It was said that prescription drugs have now replaced marijuana and alcohol as the first drug kids try. Oftentimes, people get hooked on RX drugs and move on to street drugs because they are cheaper. Here is an article from that meeting. Diane Montes is my friend we lost our boys the same year 2006, during that year my town saw 12 OD deaths of young people.

http://www.hometownlife.com/article/20100325/NEWS10/3250651/Taking-drugs-to-task

There was a young lady on the panel. She was a driven student going through medication. school. She was hooked on prescription drugs, she never used street drugs. She was getting arrested for stealing and spiraling down fast. She said when she went to her doctors to get RX she would know what to say to get the drugs she needed. In other words she was manipulating the doctors to get the drugs she wanted. She did end up in rehab and now is a resident Dr. and clean and doing great.

My point is that I think drugs have always been an issue with your daughter. My experience isn't really dealing with-mental illness. But I cannot imagine any illness getting better while a person is abusing RX drugs. My friend was a monster when she was abusing zanax.

I know she is an adult and you may feel your hands are tied, but she is living with you. Maybe you could consider rehab as an alternative for her right now. You could give her a choice, rehab or out of the house. Again I say rehab because I think drugs is more of an issue with your daughter than you may want to know. And I also believe she needs to get off of them, or properly prescribed of them before you see her change her behavior for the best. JMHO

Good luck, I hope your daughter feels the need to change quickly.

Love,
Lia

 

[gottaloveem]

Kathy,
I did want to add that I have a cousin with a difficult child daughter. Her difficult child daughter once stole their gas card. What my difficult child young cousin did was fill up all of her friends tanks and they gave her cash for gas. My cousins are well known in their city and the gas station owner called them and told them what she was doing. Perhaps that is a way your daughter managed to ring up $177.00 for "gas only" difficult child's can be so creative. Just wish they would use that creativity in a good way.

Of course I'm not implying this is what your daughter did with your card, just giving you a heads up.

Hope you are holding up OK. I know how difficult this is on you and the family. For that I am truly sorry and sending cyber hugs your way.

((((HUGS))))

Love,
Lia

 

[crazymama30]

Kathie, if you access to a fax machine you could fax a note to the doctor, and then call the office and tell them you did so as you are concerned about your dtr. many times, as long as you can be objective and brief, this makes more of an impact on the docs.