What's your thought on heroin addicts drinking alochol?

[DarkwingPsyduck]

My son tried to moderate his drinking a few years ago. Did ok for a couple months, then unbeknownst to us switched to opiates.

We never drink in front of him. I might drink at a party or a wedding if he's present, , but I won't make it obvious. It is a sacrifice that we have to make if we want to support his recovery.

I don't see him ever being able to drink socially. Ever.

It's certainly a dangerous proposition. I could drink whenever I want, but I wont. That isn't to say that it is ENTIRELY by decision. If the opportunities arose more often to drink, I very well could go overboard. It isn't really a decision if there is no choice presented. I am fortunate in that area, at least.

I would always tell new-to-recovery addicts that drinking is a bad idea, period. I try not to tell them that they will NEVER be able to do it reasonably and responsibly, but I also don't tell them that they may someday. Better they put it out of mind for as long as possible. So not drinking in front of a recovering addict is more than just considerate. It is helpful practically, as well.

 

[GoingNorth]

Another thing is that addicts who are kicking seek out 'comfort drugs" to make the process easier. Those can range from Immodium, to Benzos, to GABA drugs like Lyrica.

Sadly, it isn't uncommon for opiate addicts to come off of opiates with an addiction to something else. One of the scariest things is the addicts who are hooked on massive doses of extremely strong designer benzos. Their drug of choice becomes illegal and there is nothing else out there strong enough to fulfil their habit.

Quite often the medical profession hasn't even HEARD of the drug they've been abusing, so their isn't much help available in a medical setting.

I agree that suboxone/subutex and methadone have their place, don't know enough about opioid addiction to speak for lifetime maintenance therapy, but other than that, and medically prescribed medications such as clonidine to ease withdrawal sx, I think addicts withdrawing need to be VERY careful.

I also think the hardest part of withdrawal is after the kick, when you have find and fix the things that made you an addict in the first place.

 

[DarkwingPsyduck]

Another thing is that addicts who are kicking seek out 'comfort drugs" to make the process easier. Those can range from Immodium, to Benzos, to GABA drugs like Lyrica.

Sadly, it isn't uncommon for opiate addicts to come off of opiates with an addiction to something else. One of the scariest things is the addicts who are hooked on massive doses of extremely strong designer benzos. Their drug of choice becomes illegal and there is nothing else out there strong enough to fulfil their habit.

Quite often the medical profession hasn't even HEARD of the drug they've been abusing, so their isn't much help available in a medical setting.

I agree that suboxone/subutex and methadone have their place, don't know enough about opioid addiction to speak for lifetime maintenance therapy, but other than that, and medically prescribed medications such as clonidine to ease withdrawal sx, I think addicts withdrawing need to be VERY careful.

I also think the hardest part of withdrawal is after the kick, when you have find and fix the things that made you an addict in the first place.

The physical symptoms are so unbearable, and they aren't even the worst part. It's the mental and emotional aspect that beats us time and time again. Sure, the physical part is painful and uncomfortable in every way possible, but at least that goes away very soon. What comes next is the hard part. The depression, and despair.... It's unbearable.

 

[GoingNorth]

Yes, so I've heard. And I've heard about PAWS, which can take ages to get over and some people never get over it completely.

Do you think a lot of the despair and depression is guilt and having to face yourself sober? Having to face up t all the things you done/hurt you've caused. I have enough trouble with that, and while dependent on benzos, I get them on a nice, legal monthly RX and don't abuse them. I don't have any guilt about that. My use of that drug has never caused me to hurt another, etc.

 

[Sister's Keeper]

Yes, so I've heard. And I've heard about PAWS, which can take ages to get over and some people never get over it completely.

Do you think a lot of the despair and depression is guilt and having to face yourself sober? Having to face up t all the things you done/hurt you've caused. I have enough trouble with that, and while dependent on benzos, I get them on a nice, legal monthly RX and don't abuse them. I don't have any guilt about that. My use of that drug has never caused me to hurt another, etc.

I think so. Addicts are avoiders. They avoid responsibility, they avoid feelings. When you are wasted and numb or high you avoid facing all the you have done in the name of addiction and all that you have lost or never achieved.

I think that once your head is clear and you have to face it, it probably hits you like a giant avalanche and in, "Holy ! What have I done?" I think that the realization that you have not only wreaked havoc on your own life, but all of those around you can be pretty crushing.

I think that there is also a sense of loss. Addiction is the go-to coping mechanism. It's like being in a bad marriage. You aren't happy, it's causing you way more harm than good, but you miss him when he is gone. Just because it is what you are used to. It's hard to step out into the world and find something new.

I also think there is a physical component. I think that these substances mess with your brain chemistry so much that it takes a while to get back to normal.

It's a vicious cycle. They feel crappy about using, so they use to not feel crappy.

 

[GoingNorth]

I know with the benzos that I take, first prescribed by a psychiatrist for long term use about 10 years ago, the withdrawal includes incredible anxiety and fear and sleeplessnness, the stuff the benzos were prescribed to treat in the first place.

It also, because benzos really screw up brain chemistry, includes psychosis, seizures, and can take one to two years to get through withdrawal using a slow taper. Even then there are often long-lasting, if not permanent side effects.

I've had two different psychiatrists tell me to stay on the benzos due to my age, my other MH issues, and the severity of the withdrawals, which like alcohol, should be done inpatient until the risk of seizure or catastropicallly high blood pressure are past.

And that's without me facing any of the guilt an addict would face, just anger at the psychiatrist who initially prescribed these medications and told me (who was very naive at the time) that so long as I took them as prescribed, I had nothing to worry about. bnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn562

 

[DarkwingPsyduck]

Yes, so I've heard. And I've heard about PAWS, which can take ages to get over and some people never get over it completely.

Do you think a lot of the despair and depression is guilt and having to face yourself sober? Having to face up t all the things you done/hurt you've caused. I have enough trouble with that, and while dependent on benzos, I get them on a nice, legal monthly RX and don't abuse them. I don't have any guilt about that. My use of that drug has never caused me to hurt another, etc.

It's a very unhealthy mixture of chemical imbalance, and self loathing. They compound each other. Our brains become so used to the excess endorphin production from the opiates, it stops producing it on it's own. When we abstain, it takes quite a while for things to get back to normal. So we have THAT going on, and we can no longer avoid the fact that we have destroyed our lives, and caused pain for our loved ones. Another reason it is hard to quit... Just the prospect is terrifying for any addict.

 

[GoingNorth]

Yeah. With benzos it's GABA that gets hosed and the receptors and normal production take forever to return.

I suppose that would be true. If you start feeling the "monster" sneaking up on you, you can just have another shot, line, or chase the dragon, and you don't have to think about that for a few hours.

Benzo addiction works the same way, plus the fun of blacking out. I've never gotten high on my benzos, and have never blacked out on any substance.

Only time i've blacked out has been due to low blood pressure and once about 20 minutes after falling off a horse and hitting my head.

And, unlike benzos, I didn't do anything stupid while blacked out. I just keeled over.

 

[DarkwingPsyduck]

Yeah. With benzos it's GABA that gets hosed and the receptors and normal production take forever to return.

I suppose that would be true. If you start feeling the "monster" sneaking up on you, you can just have another shot, line, or chase the dragon, and you don't have to think about that for a few hours.

Benzo addiction works the same way, plus the fun of blacking out. I've never gotten high on my benzos, and have never blacked out on any substance.

Only time i've blacked out has been due to low blood pressure and once about 20 minutes after falling off a horse and hitting my head.

And, unlike benzos, I didn't do anything stupid while blacked out. I just keeled over.

One trait common among every drunk/junkie I have ever spoken to is our inability to appreciate delayed gratification. For us, it is instant gratification, and nothing else matters. This is because we do not.... View our experiences in light of what MIGHT be, but by what it is at this moment. We don't care about tomorrow. Or 5 minutes from our next fix. Everything else is absolutely irrelevant to us. We are the type who would rather be given $100 today, as opposed to $100,000 a month from now.

We are a cowardly lot, as well. It's too difficult to man up and accept the pain we cause, so we try our best to bury our heads in the sand. Or play the ol' "finger in the ears, chanting LALALALA" game. Anything we can to escape the consequences of our immense selfishness.

I have blacked out plenty. But never on opiates, interestingly enough. Opiates produce a much more euphoric state. We call it "the nod". When we aren't in, but not quiet out, either. We will begin to respond to a question, stop mid sentence, then finish it a minute later. I started partying pretty young, freshmen year in high school. And I blacked out plenty due to inexperience with alcohol. And with benzos. I tried quitting the pills once with Xanax. Got a whole bottle of 'em, and just kept eating them like candy. I do not remember 3 days of my life because of it. Scared my aunt shitless, unfortunately. The odd thing is that it apparently didn't actually help with any of my symptoms. I was still kicking, vomiting, sweating, shaking, etc. But I cannot remember a moment of it, so it may as well not have happened. When I finally ran out, I went out and bought some oxycontin .

 

[GoingNorth]

You bring up something very interesting Darkwing. A common problem parents on this board have, whether with adult children, or the young ones, is the inability to delay gratification.

I'll bet that many parents of addicts here can look back on their kids' childhoods and remember issues with delaying gratification.

I wonder if that can't be considered a risk factor for substance abuse in later years?

I am familiar with "the nod" from taking opioid painkillers for injuries or after surgery. Its a very strange place to be. What I don't like about it is that I'd keep surfacing not sure if I'd just thought something or actually said it.

I've seen xanax blackouts. My sister is a poly drug abuser and went through a xanax stage where she was eating them like candy. Not only did she get incredibly stupid while pretty much unable to walk, but she also got rather belligerent when I took a bottle of liquor away from her because I was terrified she'd kill herself if she drank on top of all that.


She had no memory of any of this.

Oh, and I could certainly bypass the 100 dollars today for the 100K in the future.

 

[RN0441]

I think we could be raising a generation of possible addicts with the instant gratification of the electronics that now consume our children! Phones, video games etc.

It's really scary.

 

[GoingNorth]

There was a major study done on this in the mid-aughts a regarding ADHD children and instant gratification as regarding electronics and later subtance abuse.

While they found that ADHDers did have a considerably higher rate of substance abuse and difficulty in delaying gratification, they couldn't definitively link "screens" to difficulty delaying gratification.

I think a lot of it is that its a LOT harder being a child, adolescent, or young adult now, than it was when I was growing up.

We're not evolving fast enough to deal with the things we have to, and kids ann young adults are turning to ways to numb/escape the stress and fear engendered by the world and society in which they find themselves.

 

[Sister's Keeper]

I think that addiction is a combo of DNA and personality. I don't think that you can make an addict. I think either you have the factors or not.

I think if you have DNA and a either risk taking or avoidant personality traits you are at a higher risk to become an addict.

 

[DarkwingPsyduck]

I think that addiction is a combo of DNA and personality. I don't think that you can make an addict. I think either you have the factors or not.

I think if you have DNA and a either risk taking or avoidant personality traits you are at a higher risk to become an addict.

Some are much more likely to become addicts than others, but there is no way to tell for certain who will, and will not become a junkie. We know addiction is much more common when there is a familial history of addiction, but that doesn't mean that a drunk's son is going to be a junkie. He may be more predisposed towards it, but it doesn't guarantee that he will become one. People should always be aware of familial history of addiction before making decisions about taking mind altering substances. I knew I was predisposed to addiction when I took my first drink, and my first drag, and my first snort. I knew, and I decided to do it anyway. Others in an identical situation may make the opposite decision and be all the better for it.

There is no single cause for addiction. There is no single treatment, either. Some treatment programs have more success than others, but some people who fail in NA find success in an alternative program. It is all very personal, and dependent upon many, many factors.

 

[BusynMember]

It is a fact that if your parent is an alcoholic you are more likely to become one, even if they are adopted into a sober home. Intolerance seems to be DNA. Seems few have just one addict on the family tree.

 

[GoingNorth]

It's been known that "a taste for drink runs in the bloodline" for centuries. We know now that it's actually a tendency for substance abuse, not specifically one or the other specific substance.

What substance becomes doctor seems to depend on the temperament of the user. Certain personality types prefer uppers for example, whereas someone like me, who does a fine job of climbing the walls without any chemical assistance, would be more likely to prefer downers.

 

[DarkwingPsyduck]

It is a fact that if your parent is an alcoholic you are more likely to become one, even if they are adopted into a sober home. Intolerance seems to be DNA. Seems few have just one addict on the family tree.

I read a study that showed an abundance of a certain chemical in the brain among addicts, or those born to addicts. Forget what this chemical was called, or how it works exactly, but it was interesting. It essentially just confirmed empirically what people have figured for decades now.

 

[DarkwingPsyduck]

Active addiction presents itself much like a delusion. His idea that he can beat this on his own is a persistent false belief that will not change despite all evidence to the contrary. It is a delusion by definition. It is a delusion he can overcome, though. And one he is going to have to overcome to truly recover.

 

[Copabanana]

I agree with most everybody else. I would not drink in front of him at this stage of his recovery.

M the man I have lived with for 7 years is a recovering alcoholic. He had been sober for 19 years and relapsed working for man who wanted a drinking buddy. Of course there are always other reasons and M was a grown, responsible man. But it is that easy. It just takes one (fill in the blank.)

M was drinking when I met him. There was one disastrous, horrible event when M had to face what he had become. He hated it. He changed. He never drank again.

I used to drink. Not a lot, but I liked to drink. My drinking came to disgust M. He hated the smell. How I smelled. He never discouraged me. Never judged me. But I knew. And I rarely drink now. The only real longing I have for alcohol is when I go out to a restaurant. And M loves this for me. But in our home. No. We have a bar for visitors, but over the years I have become abstinent. Or largely so.

I think this will happen to you. The respect for your child will make you identify with him and what his needs are. You will ally with that part of him. And the drinks will not be important anymore. Something that is in the margin of your life. Not the main event.

I am very, very happy for you and your family. But especially, for your son.

 

[lovemyson1]

I think so. Addicts are avoiders. They avoid responsibility, they avoid feelings. When you are wasted and numb or high you avoid facing all the you have done in the name of addiction and all that you have lost or never achieved.

I think that once your head is clear and you have to face it, it probably hits you like a giant avalanche and in, "Holy ! What have I done?" I think that the realization that you have not only wreaked havoc on your own life, but all of those around you can be pretty crushing.

I think that there is also a sense of loss. Addiction is the go-to coping mechanism. It's like being in a bad marriage. You aren't happy, it's causing you way more harm than good, but you miss him when he is gone. Just because it is what you are used to. It's hard to step out into the world and find something new.

I also think there is a physical component. I think that these substances mess with your brain chemistry so much that it takes a while to get back to normal.

It's a vicious cycle. They feel crappy about using, so they use to not feel crappy.

Ok this has got me thinking bc my son is one to avoid responsibility. And he hates to talk about his past and the pain and suffering it caused all of us. I'm wondering should we try to get him to talk about this so he can move past it or just continue to avoid these types of conversations. I'm thinking from your post that this could be one of the reasons for relapse?