A View From The Other Side (Fairly Long)

[Sister's Keeper]

Trouble is, how do you know if you will become an alcoholic or unable to live without pot until you try it?Isn't every new user at risk? by the way, thanks a lot for this thread. I value the sight from the other side. You are very articulate too.

I think you don't know. There is, certainly, a genetic component, so, maybe, if you had a family history of addiction, it would be wise to maybe just never try anything.

...but there are other issues, too. I know that people with mental illness are at a higher risk, I know certain personality types at are higher risk. People who have suffered abuse or neglect are at higher risk.

DWP is right, though, there are so many other things that can be addictive other than pills. Watch some episodes of "My 600 lb Life." The similarities are amazing. The continued eating to spite the obvious toll it has taken on their life. The family enabling. Often thee is some trauma in childhood. The same with "Hoarders." (my lord, I need to get a life)

Shoot, I love my diet soda, and my husband smokes. I guess the problem comes when it starts to affect your ability function.

 

[DarkwingPsyduck]

Not all bad habits are created equal. Something like smoking is certainly an awful habit, and those who do it have a dependency on the nicotine, but it doesn't present in the same way as other drugs. Probably due to the fact that it isn't illegal. That means it is very easy and safe to obtain. You wont often find somebody jonesing for a smoke rob a liquor store, or anything like that. I am sure it HAS happened, but that would be the exception, and not the rule. With addicts, it isn't really JUST the drugs that are habit forming. It becomes very.... ritualized. To the point that it isn't enough just to have the drugs, it needs to be had in the right manner. For me, I was also selling a lot. I loved going to my suppliers, getting a few hundred pills from him, selling off only what I had to to maintain my own habit, then spend the day with a pile of powder and a straw. It got to the point where I just planned EVERYTHING around that. And I couldn't truly enjoy anything any other way. It becomes so ingrained that you don't even realize it at the time. There is a rush in knowing that it is illegal, and highly dangerous. You get addicted to the whole process. Even though you know it is undeniably wrong, you don't really want to be right. It eventually becomes the single most important thing in life. EVERY single day is spent either in desperation as you try desperately to score, or in a near coma from getting to score. Everything else becomes second priority. Eating, showering, working, playing, family, friends, girlfriends. All of it. You choose the drugs EVERY single time. If you weren't obsessive to begin with, you certainly will be really quickly. I was already obsessive. Drugs did not help at all. I can think of ZERO positives in drug use. Not in retrospect, at least. I obviously liked SOMETHING about it while doing it, but I don't even remember what that is....

It is a messed up way of life, but a way of life nonetheless. This is why just stopping isn't good enough. We will physically get better if we stop for a long period of time, but it takes much more than abstaining to remain that way. It's changing everything else that is difficult. When every aspect of your life is reliant on the drug and drug seeking behavior, you need to change every aspect, not just some of it. Drug use stunts development. And most addicts are already stunted to begin with. That is how you end up with what is essentially a man child. And I am no different. I am 25 years old, but I stopped developing emotionally and mentally right around the time I took that first pill. Intelligence has absolutely nothing to do with it. It is a very complicated disease to suffer from, and to treat. It is unilaterally bad. And not many things are. There is NO good that comes out of any addiction, regardless of drug of choice.

 

[pigless in VA]

Darkwing, I urge you to be very cautious of prescription medications in the future. My late husband was a recovered alcoholic/addict. He functioned fairly well for the first 10 years of our marriage. Then prescription medications were what caused a relapse for him. Doctors who should have been monitoring him more closely failed to do so.

 

[BusynMember]

SistersKeeper, wow you are right. And I watch those shows. My fav is "intervention."

But I do agree that all addictions do not harm society. Certainly most addiction hurt the person and the family, but most dont lead to robbing those dearest to us AND strangers and most don't cause violence, even killing. And drug users seldom work or reach goals. I even think, from what I read, that daily pot use causes this lack of interest in goals or interestd outside of TV in a pot fog. I do know people who smoke pot and are successful, but they are sparadic users. I have not seen daily drug users do well. But I dont know if pot smokers steal or get violent either. I don't think so. So then pot addiction isnt a crime of other people either...just the user. And only if the cant live without pot on a daily basis.

 

[DarkwingPsyduck]

SistersKeeper, wow you are right. And I watch those shows. My fav is "intervention."

But I do agree that all addictions do not harm society. Certainly most addiction hurt the person and the family, but most dont lead to robbing those dearest to us AND strangers and most don't cause violence, even killing. And drug users seldom work or reach goals. I even think, from what I read, that daily pot use causes this lack of interest in goals or interestd outside of TV in a pot fog. I do know people who smoke pot and are successful, but they are sparadic users. I have not seen daily drug users do well. But I dont know if pot smokers steal or get violent either. I don't think so. So then pot addiction isnt a crime of other people either...just the user. And only if the cant live without pot on a daily basis.

I disagree that addicts seldom work towards a goal. We work towards a goal relentlessly. It is the goal that is the issue. Very little will prevent an addict from getting a fix. It's a lot of work.

 

[toughlovin]

Good point.. I know when I see my son working towards positive goals (right now exercise and taking placement tests for community college) I see that as a really positive step forward.

 

[DarkwingPsyduck]

Good point.. I know when I see my son working towards positive goals (right now exercise and taking placement tests for community college) I see that as a really positive step forward.

Those are good goals. If he works as hard towards those as he did towards the drugs, he will be unstoppable.

 

[Copabanana]

working towards positive goals (right now exercise and taking placement tests for community college

I am happy for him and for you and D H.

It is hard for me when my son starts something "good," at my prompting, to not feel the thing to be about me, wanting to make sure he succeeds.

Motivation he has in spades to go to a distant city where there is a dispensary, to get his marijuana. And he begins to groom us with lies that only he believes, about why he must go on the first of the month to the City (when SSI check arrives.)

We are helping him with a place to stay, etc. The condition is that he "work" helping us remodel the house and to work at something constructive. Is this wrong?

The one other thing he seems to be motivated to do besides getting his marijuana, as much as he can, is to not be homeless again. It is the only leverage we seem to have.

So we are pushing him to meet our conditions, and so far, he is doing it (more or less). He seems happier and stronger. But still, at the bottom of it all, it is us who are providing the lion's share of the "push."

Those are good goals. If he works as hard towards those as he did towards the drugs, he will be unstoppable.

The problem I have is that I know that to a large extent the goals that are in the picture are as much mine as my son's.

This is so hard. Thank you Darkwing for being here. It is helpful. I admire you.

 

[DarkwingPsyduck]

I am happy for him and for you and D H.

It is hard for me when my son starts something "good," at my prompting, to not feel the thing to be about me, wanting to make sure he succeeds. I see the "success" as more important than the motivation, which he usually lacks in sufficient quantity, from my vantage point. (I know. I know, I am wrong.)

His motivation is without equal to go to a distance city, a dispensary, to get his marijuana. And he begins to groom us with lies that only he sees through, about why he must go on the first of the month to the City (when SSI check arrives.)

We are helping him with a place to stay, etc. The condition is that he "work" helping us remodel the house and to work at something constructive. Is this wrong?

The one other thing he seems to be motivated to do besides getting his marijuana, as much as he can, is to not be homeless again. It is the only leverage we seem to have.

So we are pushing him to meet our conditions, and so far, he is doing it (more or less). He seems happier and stronger. But still, at the bottom of it all, it is us who are providing the lion's share of the "push."
The problem I have is that I know that to a large extent the goals that are in the picture are as much mine as my son's.

This is so hard. Thank you Darkwing for being here. It is helpful. I admire you.

Yeah, I am sure his motivation to do anything other than feed his habit is low. Practically non existent. It is certainly an improvement that he is doing those things, even if they aren't for the right reasons, so to speak. It is a start. A step forward. Maybe after experiencing it, they will become more his goals than yours.

 

[toughlovin]

Copa - I totally get it. My son has had these goals before and then not followed through when he would relapse.... So I am very very cautious in my optimism. This time around he stopped going to the IOP and we basically told him we would not pay for his sober living if he did not go to IOP.... So he did go. But I literally wondered what would happen when we paid this months rent. So to some extent I worry the same as you. However our communication the last couple of days has been good and he is now asking for help with these more positive goals. But I have been played so much I always wonder if I am getting played again.....

And yes DarkWing it is very helpful getting your perspective.

 

[DarkwingPsyduck]

Copa - I totally get it. My son has had these goals before and then not followed through when he would relapse.... So I am very very cautious in my optimism. This time around he stopped going to the IOP and we basically told him we would not pay for his sober living if he did not go to IOP.... So he did go. But I literally wondered what would happen when we paid this months rent. So to some extent I worry the same as you. However our communication the last couple of days has been good and he is now asking for help with these more positive goals. But I have been played so much I always wonder if I am getting played again.....

And yes DarkWing it is very helpful getting your perspective.

For a very long time after getting clean, literally EVERYTHING was a chore. And there was nothing I enjoyed. I forgot how to enjoy things without drugs. I had trouble doing the most basic, menial of tasks. I had to literally force myself to shower, to get out of bed, to eat, etc. Nothing made me particularly happy or content. I had absolutely no motivation to speak of. It takes time to get back to normal. Takes time to relearn our entire lives. I would suggest patience, and the understanding that he will get better, assuming he remains clean. The things you have to push so hard for him right now will eventually become normal for him. He will slowly learn to appreciate things again. And the sense of real accomplishment.

 

[pigless in VA]

Darkwing, you were probably somewhat depressed. It's a loss, and you have to go through a period of grief. Loss of the old you, loss of the highs, loss of friends. Any big change in a person's life can bring on that grief: divorce, a job change, graduation.

 

[DarkwingPsyduck]

Darkwing, you were probably somewhat depressed. It's a loss, and you have to go through a period of grief. Loss of the old you, loss of the highs, loss of friends. Any big change in a person's life can bring on that grief: divorce, a job change, graduation.

Darkwing, you were probably somewhat depressed. It's a loss, and you have to go through a period of grief. Loss of the old you, loss of the highs, loss of friends. Any big change in a person's life can bring on that grief: divorce, a job change, graduation.

Of that, I have no doubt. I have dealt with clinical depression for as long as I can remember. Just never that strongly... It was bad days. Did a lot of suicide idealization. Never like... Making a plan to harm myself. Just the constant thought in the back of my head that I did have a choice in the matter. And I don't know if that was more harmful, or helpful. I mean, the thinking is obviously dangerous, and negative, but at that time, just not feeling so stuck, and out of luck was beneficial. Along the same line as the "1 day at a time" mantra, I guess. I dunno, it was a very complicated time... I had 2 real suicide attempts as a teenager, but I wasn't even thinking of killing myself, per say. I was just acknowledging that I had a choice, and that provided some measure of comfort. Something which I was SORELY lacking.

 

[ColleenB]

For a very long time after getting clean, literally EVERYTHING was a chore. And there was nothing I enjoyed. I forgot how to enjoy things without drugs. I had trouble doing the most basic, menial of tasks. I had to literally force myself to shower, to get out of bed, to eat, etc. Nothing made me particularly happy or content. I had absolutely no motivation to speak of. It takes time to get back to normal. Takes time to relearn our entire lives. I would suggest patience, and the understanding that he will get better, assuming he remains clean.

We are going through this with our oldest. He says he isn't using, but he seems so tired and unhappy. I guess I thought he would be who he was before .... Athletic, motivated.... But I don't see that at all.

 

[DarkwingPsyduck]

We are going through this with our oldest. He says he isn't using, but he seems so tired and unhappy. I guess I thought he would be who he was before .... Athletic, motivated.... But I don't see that at all.

Well, he is either using, or he is not using. There is no half way with addicts. You can generally tell where they are at based on their overall mood. If he really is getting clean, he should be fairly miserable. It should show. Tired and unhappy seems about right to me. I was NEVER tired or unhappy when I had drugs in my pocket. That only occurred when I did not have drugs in my pocket. So, it could be that he is active, and just out of drugs, or that he is making a serious attempt to stay away from them. Obviously, I cannot tell you what it is. You know him much better. Do you find it fairly easy to tell when he is high?

Relearning everything takes real time. And it is EVERYTHING. We have to relearn how to enjoy that we have enjoyed our entire lives. With enough time, he will get better. He will rediscover the things that naturally interest him. Like the athletics. We didn't get into this shitty position over night, and we cannot expect to get past it overnight. He does need to be accountable, however. Your instincts are probably pretty good when it comes to if he is using, and what he is using. I'd say go with your gut on it. Ask him to take UA's. Pay attention to his moods and behaviors. If it feels off to you, it probably is.

 

[BusynMember]

After my daughter quit, she was so quiet and sad, but she did things she had not done before like get a job, walking back and forth in the chicsgo cold. She had given up all her friends and was living in a new state in a cold basement in her super strsight brother's house. He would have kicked her out with no mercy for one cigarette so she gave that up too. Until she met her straight boyfriend, she went months without friends becsuse she is shy and all her friends in our state were drug users. Most ended up still unemployed (eventually she found out when the found her on facebook) on drugs and in/out jail. She didnt like them even fbing her so she gave up FB and still doesnt have one.
It has been twelve years since meth. She did other speed too. I am awed that she quit without rehab. She didnt even tell us she was doing it. Suddenly we noticed she was.....brand new.
I know its true that talking the talk means nothing. She promised to quit all the time. Without walking the walk and changing your entire life...and friends...I dont think the will or mindset is there.
My daughter is a loving partner, mother and homeowner now and she put herself through college for a two year pastry chef certificate and won several cooking awards and got to go to Austria with her classmates.. But she thinks quitting and staying off drugs was the hardest and best thing she ever did. I am so proud of how she fought for a good life. She is one of my heroes.

Look carefully at your childs lifestyle and friends before you believe they quit. But it can happen. It is all up to your loved one.

 

[DarkwingPsyduck]

After my daughter quit, she was so quiet and sad, but she did things she had not done before like get a job, walking back and forth in the chicsgo cold. She had given up all her friends and was living in a new state in a cold basement in her super strsight brother's house. He would have kicked her out with no mercy for one cigarette so she gane that up too. Untilbshe met her straight boyfriend, she went months without friends becsuse she is shy and all her friends in our state were drug users. Mist ended uo still unemployed (eventually she found out when the found her on facebook). She didnt like them even fbing her so she gave up FB and still doesnt have one.
It hasbeen twelve years since meth. She did other speed too. I am awed that she wuit without rehab. She didnt even tell us she was doing it. Suddenly we noticed she was.....brand new.
I know its true that talking the talk means nothing. She promised to quit all the time. Without walking the walk and changing your entire life...and friends...I dont think the will or mindset is there.
My daughter is a loving partner, mother and homeowner now and she put herself through collegr for a two year course. But she thinks quitting and staying off drugs was the hardest thing she ever did. I am so proud of how she fought for a good life. She is one of my heroes.

Look carefully at your childs lifestyle and friends before you believe they quit.

That's incredible.... If only we were all that strong. Really, compared to your daughter, myself and my addict friends are nothing. I cannot stress how difficult getting clean is, and she did it essentially on her own. I was not capable of that, so she is awe inspiring. You are right about walking the walk. Words are cheap enough, and they are worthless from an addict's mouth. I think this is because we get SO good at lying and manipulating that we are able to do it to ourselves. So, even when not trying to be disingenuous, we often are. Every time I ran out of drugs, I was quitting. Not really, of course, but I said I was. Even believed it. Until the moment that text came through that my supplier re upped. Then I was done quitting. Forced sobriety is a far cry from true healing. It is when we CHOOSE it that it really matters. You could lock an addict up in a dark basement for years, and KNOW that they are physically clean. Then, if you finally release them, chances are good that it will not take too long to fail. The idea is being able to say no ourselves. Not have it said for us, if that makes any sense. Genuine efforts are accompanied by REAL change and sacrifice, not words.

 

[DarkwingPsyduck]

Hey, could somebody explain to me what all these notifications I keep getting are about? Trophies, and then some...... what I am assuming are similar to likes on facebook?

 

[BusynMember]

Darkwing, you made me cry. She looked sickly and spaced when she used. She lied and stole and raged. Then there were days she just slept.

I thought whe would end up either dead or in prison and I was cheering for prison. I had never even been drunk in my life and didnt know about rehabs and the hospitals never told us that was where she should go. We were lost,plus we thought she was just using pot. How stupid we were. But she was such a good liar.

I am grateful for her strength. Its so good to see her chubby, which is natural for her. On speed,she barely weighed 80 pounds. Her skin was so bad too. It has never been good since the meth, even now.

Dark, you are also one of my heroes. You had a much harder life than my daughter, but you overcame it and are trying to help the mothers here who still suffer. I admire you. A lot.band so happy you have your uncle and aunt!! You are so incredibly a blessing to our site.

 

[DarkwingPsyduck]

Darkwing, you made me cry. She looked sickly and spaced when she used. She lied and stole and raged. Then there were days she just slept.

I thought whe would end up either dead or in prison and I was cheering for prison. I had never even been drunk in my life and didnt know about rehabs and the hospitals never told us that was where she should go. We were lost,plus we thought she was just using pot. How stupid we were. But she was such a good liar.

I am grateful for her strength. Its so good to see her chubby, which is natural for her. On speed,she barely weighed 80 pounds. Her skin was so bad too. It has never been good since the meth, even now.

Dark, you are also one of my heroes. You had a much harder life than my daughter, but you overcame it and are trying to help the mothers here who still suffer. I admire you. A lot.band so happy you have your uncle and aunt!! You are so incredibly a blessing to our site.

It's not so much about who hard it more difficult. I have yet to meet a person who had a perfect life. Even the most Brady Bunch appearing families have skeletons. People aren't perfect, thefore families aren't perfect. My twin sister's drug of choice is meth. It's so very different from my drug of choice, but we suffer the same underlying problems. When a meth addict just stops, they sleep and eat... Like, A LOT. Sister was in jail for 3 months. She was clean during that entire time. When she got out, before running off again, she did little else but sleep and eat. Physically speaking, meth is not as uncomfortable as opiate withdrawal, but it lasts SO much longer. For me, my drug of choice was oxycodone, and other fast acting, short half life opiates. As bad as the physical discomfort was, it only lasted a couple of weeks. A terrifying, depressing, lonely couple of weeks... But sister gained so much weight. Which she needed. I am naturally very thin, but she isn't. So it was easy enough to tell when she was using. She could put on 20 pounds in a month after getting clean, then lose 30 pounds in 2 weeks while using. The effects of habitual drug use are nuts.

But, yeah. Your daughter is a man among little boys. So strong and independent, even after going through a severe drug addiction. It is kinda hard to play the pity game when you hear about somebody like her, who got her together through seemingly impossible odds. She is living proof that there is no excuse good enough to justify continuing to use. I truly mean that. Before her, no reason to put off quitting is good enough. The fact that she did it, successfully, despite her situation at the time, shows that it isn't so much the situation, but the person. She is strong. Very strong...