Am I steering my own, true course or heading for the rocks?

[Smithmom]

Copa,
If his choices mean that he's going to die then maybe you need to think about whether he is suicidal. Is agreeing to meet you now an indication that he is not suicidal? Does he take the threat of death seriously?

 

[Smithmom]

I think of this as going into negotiation. My business background. I prepare for negotiation by knowing what I want and what I am willing to give. I think about what they want and are willing to give. In a one meeting negotiation I have to have all the potentials analyzed and priced. I cant sign a 3 year contract that I'm going to lose money on! If they throw me a curve ball I could end up losing for 3 years! So I spend days working out every possible discussion that might come up. I have my response planned to everything. In a one time negotiation there's no room to see what might happen. I need to be prepared to walk away. If its not profitable I walk away. I do not sign for 3 years of losses!

 

[Copabanana]

All of this is helpful. In reality I do not know what is the one thing I want. Because when I identify one thing, I jump immediately to the next. Because each time I identify something in him, about his life, it is external to me, and it does not quell the fear and the want that are in me. So if I put it that way, it is not about what I want from J. It is what I want and need in me, that J cannot ever give me.

As I think about it now, my son is showing he can survive. He has to be making decent micro decisions...or he would have come to a real crisis...living as he is.

You need him to be alive.

Sounds like your need list should be one item.

Question: is that on J's need list?

You really can't control if he lives. That's up to him.

Living homeless without a way to organize himself, without a safe place is not conducive to health and well-being. Either mental or physical health. I think he wants to live, but I think he is in a lot of denial about his illness.

What do you absolutely need from him? Want list we all know.

I don't know. I think this is the $64,000 question.

if the only thing on J's list is housing, could you go back to the drawing board with a place for him to sleep? Present him with 3 or options that are acceptable to you. Rehab obviously. Homeless shelter.

This is the nugget of things.

What has been the deal breaker for me is that housing has been the only thing he will go on the record as wanting. What goes unstated is his wanting to be close to people who know and care about him.

I have to be able to tell him that this has not been enough for me. And it is possible I can change some, but not all. Thankyou smithmom.

 

[Copabanana]

If his choices mean that he's going to die then maybe you need to think about whether he is suicidal. Is agreeing to meet you now an indication that he is not suicidal? Does he take the threat of death seriously?

I think he is in denial about his illness and what could happen if he gets ill. I think he is in denial what the virus could be doing to his liver.

He has sounded good now as long as we have been corresponding this time. His friend who sees him daily says he is good, has been stable, and has been in good spirits throughout. I do not fear now that he is suicidal. I am not expecting that he will use threats of suicide to push me to results he wants, but it is good that I consider that he could.

I think of this as going into negotiation.

We are different personality types. I think of nothing going into a situation. I only think while I am in the moment. I am terrorized by any business relationship and usually taken advantage of.

That is why I post, one reason. By posting I learn what I am thinking and have the potential to know a little bit of what is going on with me.

I agree with you. First, love. I agree. No M.

Smithmom. What do you think I need from J? Not what I want, what I need. Maybe it is to be connected to him.

 

[Smithmom]

In negotiation you have to allow the other party dignity and respect. If he's not willing to declare love and need to be loved then that needs to go unsaid. But again, part of negotiation is knowing what your value is to the other party. You need to know what cards you hold. And he knows what cards he holds. I doubt he needs to hear about your pain. You communicate that every time you call or text him. He may need to know that you intend to stand firm. That you will leave him where he is

The other thing is any business is knowing who the customer is. Who is he negotiating with you or you and M or M? Very confusing if the other side keeps changing.

 

[Smithmom]

Only you can define your need. But being connected probably isn't specific enough. Does that mean knowing where he is? Talking once a day? Seeing him once a day? Getting flowers from him once a week? I'm just trying to point out that being connected needs definition. Sorry too analytical. But you only get what you want if the other person knows what you want. Sometimes words are too vague.

 

[Smithmom]

I do think that the possibility of him dying needs to be eliminated. That would be number 1 on my list. If he never speaks to me again, at least I know he's alive. The terror of burying a son, which all parents of addicts live with, would make me put the rest of the list away.

 

[Copabanana]

Who is he negotiating with you or you and M or M?

M is not involved. He is not involved in this pre-negotiation, he is not going tomorrow, he will not be involved in determining the terms, and he will not be involved in deciding there is agreement. There will be a conversation, the three of us, if the outcome is that we will try that he come back.

dignity and respect.

Thank you for this.

If he's not willing to declare love and need to be loved

Each of us are clear and open about our love for each other.

part of negotiation is knowing what your value is to the other party.

He knows what he means to me, and I know what I mean to him.

You need to know what cards you hold.

And he knows what cards he holds

This is interesting. Each of us holds the trump card which is our love, one for the other. But we have come to treat each other as people who do not have intrinsic value to the other. He has not considered the effect on me, of what he does. And I have had to drum out my concern about the effect on him, of what I have chosen to do, in order to do it.

He may need to know that you intend to stand firm. That you will leave him where he is

Yes.

But smithmom. I still don't know what my bottom line is. What I want. I guess it is to be in communication. But beyond that I do not know. I don't. Really. I know what others tell me I should need. But I don't know the one thing.

 

[Copabanana]

I do think that the possibility of him dying needs to be eliminated. That would be number 1 on my list.

Yes.

 

[Smithmom]

The title of this post is steering. I submit that steering requires forethought and planning. Living for the moment is right. But not when you head out on a journey that might take you into rocks. Before you leave you plan. The wind, the weather, the strength of the boat. Mariners use science to analyze the variables and plan the journey.

 

[Smithmom]

Daily communication is a defined need. Doesn't need to be more than that.

But how much are you willing to give for that? A phone plan? A place to live?

 

[Tired out]

Copa, I have been reading your posts for a long time now. It seems to me a High priority on your want is to know J has a safe/warm place to lay his head to sleep.
Smithsmom, You do seem very analytical (I love that).

Would an either or list work for J?
example (arbitrary amounts)
1- either you give me $30/week for a house cleaner OR you keep it clean
2- either your give me $30/ week for housing OR you go to liver doctor.
That way J chooses his own rules giving him control.

Does he want to come home? Or do you just think he does?

I hope, pray, wish you hear get to see and talk to him.

 

[Copabanana]

Living for the moment is right. But not when you head out on a journey that might take you into rocks. Before you leave you plan.

Unfortunately I have never had a plan when I have set out for a journey except to arrange for the first few nights of housing.

Does he want to come home?

He said he did a couple of months ago. He wanted to come home to talk a week ago. I said no. I believe he does want to come home but we will see.

I have not heard from him.

Thank you very much tiredout, smith mom, SWOT, caretoomuch.

 

[CareTooMuch]

Try to get some sleep tonight and hugs for tomorrow.

 

[BusynMember]

Please update us, dear friend.

We all care.

 

[Smithmom]

Hope you find some happiness.

 

[Copabanana]

Dear Friends:

I have heard not a thing from him. I sent him the tickets by email. Either he will or will not go but I believe he will. He was the one who took the lead to make decisions about destination and times, etc. I am okay either way. I am proud of myself that I am back in the game. I am also proud of myself that I stood my ground and made him leave. Love involves conditions and structure and bottom lines as well as kindness and giving.

I had to step up. The main thing I accomplished in these 4 months is I had a bottom line and I demonstrated it to myself, and secondarily, to him. I did not fold.

What changed this past 8 days, is I got strong enough to try again. While it was unbearable to know he was homeless, I did not contact him because I could not or would not tolerate it. I contacted him because I believed I was strong enough to do so, and to hold my own. I believe I am.

I am hopeful he has come to some understanding, too. But I have to stay centered in myself.

There is no going back from that, that I stepped up. I did the hardest thing, for me. And as a consequence I am a changed person. At least a little bit.

I have to believe in myself that if I found my spine that it will not disintegrate. That I can keep finding it again and again.

I do believe that I will do okay. I hope I do. I am looking forward to seeing him, if he comes.(Except I hate how he looks. If he looks unkempt. And I am glad I will not be riding the train with him. Once security was going to throw him off. That was my nightmare trip. We used to ride on airplanes all up and down the hemisphere. Those days are gone.)

But If he doesn't come I will be okay.

I am doing lots of good things for me and I have support. Thank you very much.

 

[Tired out]

Copa,
I hope (and pray) he shows up and is in a good mental frame of mind.
I will (I am sure we all will) be thinking of you.

 

[Elsi]

Copa I’m just catching up on this thread. I know today will be tough on a lot of levels - no matter what the outcome is - but in your last post you sound strong, clear and grounded. I have no further words of advice that you haven’t heard from me already but I am sending positive thoughts and prayers today in hope that you can hold onto that clarity and maintain your peace no matter what happens. I’ll be looking for the update later! I really hope it is a positive new beginning for the two of you!

 

[AppleCori]

Will be thinking of you today, and hoping that things go well.

Apple